136 réponses à ce sujet

[Lazarus Magni]

I have already discussed at length here:
http://social.biowar...index/8398695/8
Some of the reasons why the absence of the master server is stil a huge issue.

P.S. Shadooow, I am a PW Owner, and we used some of your 1.70 patch, and were quite happy to do so.

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 12 novembre 2012 - 05:16 .

[Lightfoot8]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Why is absence of master server any issue?

For their server, It comes down to a bad decision made by their admin team.   That decision was the posting of their server vault to a location that could be downloaded by all of the players.   At least that is what I gathered from the other thread.    Of cource when someone else called that a bad decision on their part, LM  took an offensive stance and the thread just keept degrading from there.   

 So the basic problem is that other players can log into old player accounts and there is no way to tell if it was the original player on the first Login.   

If they had keept the server logs from day one, it would be an easy fix.   But I guess that have not keept them since I have never gotten an answer in every thread that I have asked about them in.  

Modifié par Lightfoot8, 12 novembre 2012 - 07:09 .

[HipMaestro]

Lazarus Magni wrote...
I have already discussed at length here:
http://social.biowar...index/8398695/8
Some of the reasons why the absence of the master server is stil a huge issue.

I sympathize with the frustrations trying to secure your server but exactly how long would the MS need to be down before you realized that neither Bioware nor Atari intend to allocate any resources to reimplement it and maintain it?  A year?  2?  3?  Dialogue with the legacy agents have ceased, as difficult as it may be to recognize that fact.  It's more than just resurrecting it again.  It will require a dedicated agent (or agents) to continue to maintain it or the community will face the same situation again.  I suspect the main reason for the permanent disappearance has to do with the final realization of how much of their design resources would be necessary to prevent the security disaster that supposedly compromised the server before.  Only a guess on my part, but it seems a standard pitfall that many companies are succumbing to... underestimating costs/efforts and reducing their staff to the point where it can no longer provide service as contracted. 

The only recourse, a recourse that is not an option in this case, is boycott.  Just stop buying.  If the lost sales is significant enough, you'll get service restored.  Public relations is a very small concern of large software companies.  They have no conscience.

It should be be fairly easy to extrapolate the fact that the status quo has been reached and that the community itself will either fabricate suitable security work-arounds or the current insecure condition will persist until the player base disappears completely.

If ranting and petitioning serves as some sort of catharsis for you, all well and good, but it has not, and more likely than not, will not produce the outcome you seek... restoration of the MS.  The energy and time expended trying to estimate the resources needed, the implementation issues, the restatement of implied warranty and the attempts to canvass the game owner and designer for assistance would probably be better spent incorporating your own safeguards the best you can.   I believe there are servers that are handling the problem adequately already, independant of the MS provisions.

Yeah, it's a huge issue. Just not one that the shrunken community has any control over.

[Lazarus Magni]

Actually Light, that is not the core of the issue, although it is a part. One which I had no control of, and further more the second generation of Aventia, let alone the 3rd would never have been possible with out the vault release of the first. I, the owner of the third, have other ways of pseudo verifying returning players since I have played there nearly the whole time. Of course nothing would be as good as actual account verification from the game developer itself (e.g. what the master server did.) But seriously… keeping 10 years worth of server logs? Are you crazy??? Come on man… get real (or realistic in the instance of multi-generational owners.) Even if I was that obsessive compulsive, let's say average restart time of 8 hrs, that's 3 restarts per day, over 10 years that's over 100k server logs. Do you really think it is reasonable to go through 100k+ server logs to verify a CD key every time a returning player wants to come back?

The core of the issue is the fact that bans are inconsequential. Our players (or any other server's) should not be subject to harassment from some jerk who can whip out a new IP, CD key, and player name faster than I can ban them and restart the server, and neither should our PW (or any other) be vulnerable to said jerks exploiting stuff. With the master server at least it is a financial burden for them to do so (or at the very least o_O a criminal offense), which gives bans much more strength.

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 12 novembre 2012 - 08:39 .

[Lazarus Magni]

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 12 novembre 2012 - 08:22 .

[ehye_khandee]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

 But seriously… keeping 10 years worth of server logs? Are you crazy??? Come on man… get real (or realistic in the instance of multi-generational owners.) Even if I was that obsessive compulsive, let's say average restart time of 8 hrs, that's 3 restarts per day, over 10 years that's over 100k server logs. Do you really think it is reasonable to go through 100k+ server logs to verify a CD key every time a returning player wants to come back?

0.1 mb X 3 (times a day) X 365 days X 10 years = ~1 gigabyte.

This much data fits more than four times over on a single DVD.

More, you don't even need ALL of that data, you could make due with a few months worth if that is all you have.

The point is not to 'go through all this log data each time a PLAYER logs in' but rather to mine the needed ID information OUT of the log files by automated means, stuff all that into a database that takes pitiful fractions of a second to read and resolve the authenticity of a PLAYER.

I agree it would be nice if the MS never went down or if it were brought back, but the company just does not have any interest in doing the work of bringing it back, heck they don't even talk to us about it anymore. It is over, done, stick a fork in it and walk away.

Your best bet and that of every NWN server out there too is to adapt your own solution. Multiple solutions means it is harder for the bad guys to do what they do that irks us Admins. I feel your pain, I understand your frustration, but none of this has worked and it's been tried for years now - there comes a time when one must concede, you have done all that you can do, the cause lost. There ARE work arounds, it is strongly suggested you cleave to them and not hold your breath for the return of the MS.

It's dead Jim.


Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA
66.232.100.90 cep2.1 +
http://playnwn.com

http://neverwinterconnections.com

[Shadooow]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

I have already discussed at length here:
http://social.biowar...index/8398695/8
Some of the reasons why the absence of the master server is stil a huge issue.

P.S. Shadooow, I am a PW Owner, and we used some of your 1.70 patch, and were quite happy to do so.

yes there are more PW admins that uses some content from my project, because no doubt there are usefull fixes and features. But so far nobody promoted this. Aka, we do use this and this from CP project. And AFAIK there isnt server out there who would dared to use it as a whole.

I have nothing against you Lazarus, I helped you and Kato to extrack the parts from CP you were interest in, but its not nice that people does this. At least, you were so kind and asked, others do not ask at all and then propose these changes as their own, but whatever. I was speaking generally, not against you or your server, and generally you can't say it isn't true.

When I started this project, I was hoping to achieve support from community, that community members join and together we create new standard, just like what happened in Jagged Alliance 2 or Gothic3. Instead - I was from start accused of implying its "community endorsed" which isn't true. And up today nothing changed actually, its just one man show which in the end doesnt differ from numerous HR packages on vault. Big disappointment.

[Lazarus Magni]

Ehye,
The thing is, not everybody is a super savy computer person, or IT professional. And you shouldn’t have to be to host a PW. It just creates an immense barrier to those like me who aren’t, and I don’t think that is right. I certainly have no clue how you would “data mine” 100k+ log files (and yes you would need all the logs spawning the whole history of the PW to ensure any returning player’s account is protected), nor do I know how to do what you described with a DB. If you do, and are willing to write up a walkthrough on how, it would be great if you posted it here:
http://social.biowar...index/7846801/4  
It won’t help me out, but it might help others.

But again, this isn’t even the core of the issue as I stated above…
Laz
P.S. Putting a space after a link, creates the link on these boards. E.G.
http://neverwinterconnections.com
http://playnwn.com

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 12 novembre 2012 - 08:36 .

[Lightfoot8]

@Laz   I think you are confusing the server log with the client log.    The client log overrites itself every time you play a new game,  And yes you would have to have something to rotate/save the old log every time you started up NWN to play.    The server log does not work that way,  It appends the new log to the old one, If you have never deleted the log you still have your compleate server log since you have taken over the server. ( Though it may well be mixed in with data for any other servers you have also ran)


@Ehye,   I dont know where you get your information from the last time I checked a single layer dvd held about 4.3 GB.  your 4 dvd would hold about 13.2 GB.   A server restart would only add less then half a KB to the log. A player logging into and out of the server would add less the .2kb to the log.  Most of the log would be player chatter if the server was set up to log it.   If the log is set to record deaths,  well I think that is just mindless bloating of the log and should be turned off.     and even if the size was greatly large they are text files, they will easly compress 20:1 turning your 1GB file into a 50MB  compressed file.  

[Lazarus Magni]

I don't know what you mean by client log Light? Can you elaborate on what that is? I don't host the server BTW, I pay for hosting to which I have FTP access to. Our nwserverlog1 is started over every restart (meaning completely fresh). And they are backed up to 9 restarts after which they rotate through (newest one pushes out the oldest). Our logs can reach 3 mb per restart depending on how busy we are. And no we don't chat log, although it is a bit overbloated with some useless info.

P.S. Ehye, said 10 years worth of logs would be about 1 GB, which would easily fit on a DVD.

[ehye_khandee]

Lightfoot8 wrote...

@Ehye,   I dont know where you get your information from the last time I checked a single layer dvd held about 4.3 GB.  your 4 dvd would hold about 13.2 GB.

Lightfoot8, I'm sure you misread my post which says only:

"This much data fits more than four times over on a single DVD" - I'm not talking about four DVDs, I'm saying ONE GIGABYTE OF DATA WOULD FIT FOUR TIMES ON A single DVD.

The rest of the post directed at me is based on this error so I'll disregard.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

http://playnwn.com

P.S. Thanks laz ... but the space did not seem to do the trick for me here.

Modifié par ehye_khandee, 12 novembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[Lightfoot8]

@Ehye, My bad.

[Lightfoot8]

@Laz, In nwnplayer.ini if ClientEntireChatWindowLogging=1 is set all chat will be logged to the client.

EDIT:  that is if it is set on the players computer.   It is a client setting not a server setting.

Modifié par Lightfoot8, 12 novembre 2012 - 10:39 .

[Lazarus Magni]

Lightfoot8 wrote...

@Laz   I think you are confusing the server log with the client log.    The client log overrites itself every time you play a new game,  And yes you would have to have something to rotate/save the old log every time you started up NWN to play.    The server log does not work that way,  It appends the new log to the old one, If you have never deleted the log you still have your compleate server log since you have taken over the server. ( Though it may well be mixed in with data for any other servers you have also ran) 
 

The server log is definitely not a continum. A new one is started every restart (using the nwnx_restart plugin).It's not the same thing as just reloading the module. It completely shuts down nwserver, and then nwnx reboots it clearing memory buffers, and all that good stuff.

[Shadooow]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Lightfoot8 wrote...

@Laz   I think you are confusing the server log with the client log.    The client log overrites itself every time you play a new game,  And yes you would have to have something to rotate/save the old log every time you started up NWN to play.    The server log does not work that way,  It appends the new log to the old one, If you have never deleted the log you still have your compleate server log since you have taken over the server. ( Though it may well be mixed in with data for any other servers you have also ran) 
 

The server log is definitely not a continum. A new one is started every restart (using the nwnx_restart plugin).It's not the same thing as just reloading the module. It completely shuts down nwserver, and then nwnx reboots it clearing memory buffers, and all that good stuff.

Yes I can confirm this behavior with nwserver running with NWNX. It may be changed only in the plugin source IIRC.

Yet you obviously dealt with this account/CDKEY situation Lazarus, didn't you? Im judging this from the fact that Aventia is running :happy:. So it can't be *that* serious, is it?

[Lazarus Magni]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Actually Light, that is not the core of the issue, although it is a part. One which I had no control of, and further more the second generation of Aventia, let alone the 3rd would never have been possible with out the vault release of the first. I, the owner of the third, have other ways of pseudo verifying returning players since I have played there nearly the whole time. Of course nothing would be as good as actual account verification from the game developer itself (e.g. what the master server did.) But seriously… keeping 10 years worth of server logs? Are you crazy??? Come on man… get real (or realistic in the instance of multi-generational owners.) Even if I was that obsessive compulsive, let's say average restart time of 8 hrs, that's 3 restarts per day, over 10 years that's over 100k server logs. Do you really think it is reasonable to go through 100k+ server logs to verify a CD key every time a returning player wants to come back?

The core of the issue is the fact that bans are inconsequential. Our players (or any other server's) should not be subject to harassment from some jerk who can whip out a new IP, CD key, and player name faster than I can ban them and restart the server, and neither should our PW (or any other) be vulnerable to said jerks exploiting stuff. With the master server at least it is a financial burden for them to do so (or at the very least o_O a criminal offense), which gives bans much more strength.

Please pay special attention to the second paragraph.

[SHOVA]

Laz, I am going to let you in on a terrible secret. When the master server was up, the same thing your second paragraph detailed was true as well. There is nothing that can stop someone from using alternate keys, a dynamic IP address, and multiple logins. That has always been the case.

There are other ways to deal with problem players than the ban hammer.
The top one suggested imho is place the problem toon in a cut scene that never ends, have random insults pop up for them to read. and leave them there. Give them a nice small item that they can not drop that ports them back to the cut scene if they log out or a reset happens.

However, the master server isn't a magic fix for the problem player, or a permanent ban database. The only thing the MS was actually good for was ensuring that only the player that created the account could log into that account.

If your PW is having repeated visits from the trolls, the best advice is stop feeding them. Trolls get off on making people deal with them, the drama that surrounds trying to get rid of them, and the chaos when it doesn't work. remove the drama, the chaos, and the attention from them and they will most likely move on. That in my opinion is more constructive for you to do, than trying to get a company to continue support of a game they have stopped supporting. The MS is down, it has been down for over a year, and will likely never come back up. Take a deep breath and accept it. If you need help scripting in some server security, ask funky. he is rather helpful, likes to script, and is a nice guy to talk to.

Good luck!.

[Lazarus Magni]

The master server did a bit more than that I believe Shova. It hosted the legacy forums, it required people to create an account with bioware prior to getting on line, it was the repository for registered CD keys, and yes it protected past and present accounts from being compromised. It may have also verified that legitimate CD keys were being used, or at the very least that 1 key was not being used my multiple people at the same time.

[SHOVA]

It still was not, nor would it be, if it returned, the ultimate answer to banning, or stopping grief type players. The legacy forums, have been gone for so long I personally no longer remember them, nor care if they return. This forum, though a bit less user friendly is perfectly fine for the NWN community. However the forums are a moot point, as they won't fix the ban/grief problem that seems to be fueling your charge here.

Even if it did return, there was no actual check of how many log ins per key. Now with NWN being available for $10, and that GOG will give you a multi-play CD key when you ask them, players probably have a few copies anyway. I know I have had 4 copies, since HotU came out. Keys can be mixed and matched, With or without a master server.

You might as well be beating a dead horse. You have a better chance getting hit by a meteor while at a Justin Bieber concert than it coming back. I suggest you ask for help on the scripting forums for ways to secure your server, Stop giving drama, and attention to the problem players that show up on your PW, as they like it, and focus on moving forward without the MS. However, If you can not find scripting help to your liking, You can always set your PW to password to play. Make people join your PW forums, before they play on your PW that alone is probably enough to end the grief your getting in game.

Good luck!

[Shadooow]

deleted

disregard what I have written and then deleted, the account protection can be reinvent via NWNX to work just as the MS did

the only difference is that it wont be possible to make it from game itself using register account button, but instead each PW must do it on their own

It would be possible to maintain new MS service, but from reasons I mentioned above, I don't think that NWN community as a whole ever agrees to do it

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 14 novembre 2012 - 12:29 .

[ehye_khandee]

Lazarus Magni wrote...

The master server did a bit more than that I believe Shova. It hosted the legacy forums, it required people to create an account with bioware prior to getting on line, it was the repository for registered CD keys, and yes it protected past and present accounts from being compromised. It may have also verified that legitimate CD keys were being used, or at the very least that 1 key was not being used my multiple people at the same time.

IDK that the master server did all that. I have no evidence to say it ran the forum as they went down at different times. True you had to open an account and register keys on the old forum, but that does not mean the forum server was the master server. Likely it shared a database.

 Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA

http://playnwn.com  

[Shadooow]

now I remember, I was correct, the MS verification worked with account and password, the CDKEY wasn't used to verify players

[HipMaestro]

ehye_khandee wrote...

Lazarus Magni wrote...
The master server did a bit more than that I believe Shova. It hosted the legacy forums, it required people to create an account with bioware prior to getting on line, it was the repository for registered CD keys, and yes it protected past and present accounts from being compromised. It may have also verified that legitimate CD keys were being used, or at the very least that 1 key was not being used my multiple people at the same time.

IDK that the master server did all that. I have no evidence to say it ran the forum as they went down at different times.

Neither do I.  But the keys were definitely not linked (read further)...

ehye_khandee wrote...
True you had to open an account and register keys on the old forum, but that does not mean the forum server was the master server. Likely it shared a database.

I can't vouch for whether there had been any peripheral data mining occurring between the MS database and the database populated by forum registry, but I can guarantee that the CD keys were not shared.

The MS used an algorithm to determine whether a CD Key was valid or not to open an account, much like the game installation verification procedure.  The forum registry never did and those that depended on the legacy database to retain their keys would have found little useful help requesting a Bioware-sponsored emailing of them if they erred typing during the data entry when they registered.  Hence, anyone could register whether they actually owned the game or not.  All the registration did was allow an account owner (a Forum acct owner, not an MS account owner) to access the restricted forums.  Nothing more.  But you could easily have typed in any bogus string (I believe they did perform an alphanumeric character count check but nothing more than that) and still registered.

The premium modules used the MS account keys, not the forum acct keys, to establish ownership.

Players did not have to open an account on the Bioware Forum site to create an account and play on-line.

Still, way before the so-called security hacking episode, there were still security issues occurring, whether it was because the MS wasn't verifying properly under all circumstance or not, I have no clue, but many of the servers I used to frequent had even then written their own security verification as part of standard login.  This is not a new problem.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 14 novembre 2012 - 02:03 .

[Lightfoot8]

[quote]Lazarus Magni wrote...

The core of the issue is the fact that bans are inconsequential. Our players (or any other server's) should not be subject to harassment from some jerk who can whip out a new IP, CD key, and player name faster than I can ban them and restart the server, and neither should our PW (or any other) be vulnerable to said jerks exploiting stuff. With the master server at least it is a financial burden for them to do so (or at the very least o_O a criminal offense), which gives bans much more strength.[/quote]
[/quote]

Ok, I will pay attention.  

It sounds to me like you need to script a better solution.    

  like a system that will allow your DM's to speak a simple voice command that will toggle the ability of new players joining without approval.   Players that are already established would still be able to log into the server, but players with new accounts/CD keys would have to get approval from a DM to join, or a password given to them from the server staff( from your forums )  in order to validate there account.         

[Baaleos]

Lazarus raises valid points, granted, they are valid points that have been beaten to death over and over, and then raised via Raise Dead, and then beaten again.

The Master Server's main purpose in my opinion was to ensure that valid legal CDKeys were the only ones used by online players
Now that it is gone - essentially anyone can play without fear of perma bans etc.
If I werent using my ancient CDKeys, I'd probably be using some randomly generated crap.


But you need to ask yourself - what can the would be griefers do that they couldnt have done with the master server around.

1. If they come into your server, you can kick them, and ban their account - which locks their characters.
2. If they come back as another account, you can recognize them by behaviour - the only way you wouldnt recognize them by behaviour, would be if they got the hint, and suddenly started behaving and obeying your rules, dont target a player cause you just dont like them. Target them based on behavior that is contrary to the spirit of your PW Server. Adhere to the rules = enjoy, Dont Adhere to the rules = Ban


As mentioned above - there are numerous NWNX plugins available, many of which allow you to do things that can validate incoming players, and make sure they are in an 'allowed list'.
Granted- limiting players to just forum users can limit the player base - but thats the trade off all systems pay, when they provide hightened security.

As far as the whole Master Server thing goes
I realise it is abit annoying - having to wait for 6-8 seconds to get past the authentication phase due to the offline server.

I use the following C# Solution everytime I start NWN.

Essentially - just write this 0x84, 0xF2, 0x06
to here : 0x004D4AF7

Note - these memory addresses are the ones used by NWNCX - So you could use that too, if you werent techno savvi.

try 
            { 
                Memory m = new Memory("nwmain"); // <- A custom wrapper class. 
                if (m.ProcessLoaded) 
                { 
                    IntPtr i = m.ProcessHeld.Handle; 
                    IntPtr i2 = new IntPtr((uint)m.ProcessHeld.MainWindowHandle + 0x004D4AF7); 
                    byte[] b = { 0x84, 0xF2, 0x06 }; 
                    m.WriteByteArray(m.ProcessHeld.Handle, i2, b); 
                } 
                m = null; 
            } 
            catch (Exception eA) 
            { 

            } 

Yes - I realise what people are saying - they bought NWN, therefore they feel like they deserve office bioware support for the game.

World doesnt work like that.
NWN is litterally a few kicks away from being abandonware - the community might as well own it.
Bioware certainly isnt gonna bring back the Master Server -
the cost of maintaining, and building/creating it - vs the benefits it provideds = Not worth it.