110 réponses à ce sujet

[Lethys1]

I realize games haven't really been doing what I'm about to say since the early to mid 2000s, but I think there should be less voicework done for this game and it should be replaced by text.  The reason for this is that voicework is a massive part of a game's budget nowadays, and requiring lines for every possibility in a story seems to make writers limit the number of options they give players when making decisions.

A game like Fallout 1 or 2, for example, could offer way more options for you to go about doing something because it's just different text responses.  I'm not saying this game should use text in the same way, but maybe a letter is left on a table for your character to read instead of having a certain coversation, or you read something posted on a wall, or there's a secret code mini-game that reveals information to you so you don't have to have conversations.

It seems like if one were to plot a chart, the moment at which RPG's started being fully voiced is the same moment they started being far more restrictive in their design.  Combat-only design replaced more creative ideas involving skill checks, as an example.  I personally would trade voicework in entirely for a fuller, branching RPG experience, but I realize that isn't a popular opinion.

Modifié par Lethys1, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:15 .

[Potato Cat]

Well I don't think you can affect DA3 now, just so you know, though I do support what you are saying

[cindercatz]

Personally, I'd prefer to gain more branching at the expense of game length per playthrough instead. Voicework is really one of those things that BioWare is head and shoulders above the vast majority of their competition, so I don't really want to see less of it. I love banters dearly, for instance, and I hope to see more variation in basic interaction (both in dialogue and animation) owing to changing relationships between characters. I don't really want to go backwards in those areas for more text.

On the other hand, I also love text only games like Steambot Chronicles (highly branching, very open) and the old FF7 (mostly linear), etc., but I see those as fundamentally different kinds of RPG at this point. BioWare does this thing they do better than anybody else, so I prefer they refine what they are right now.

Modifié par cindercatz, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:27 .

[Vit246]

Absolutely. Look at the variety of complex text dialogue in games like DA (maybe) and KOTOR 2.

[Medhia Nox]

Personally - I think a voiced protagonist trades creativity with glitz and glamour.

I'd even make an argument for voiced NPCs who have to constantly call me by a title.

I'd rather read text with someone calling me "Joe" than a voiced protagonist constatly saying: "Warden - Warden - Warden - Warden"

Though I do appreciate the "tonal" creativity to an NPC - since I shouldn't be aware of their inner thoughts as an outside observer.

But voiced Protagonists... I genuinely dislike - and I think resources are wasted on the twitch generation. But I suppose features aren't missed - if you're not aware they ever existed in the past.

[MichaelStuart]

I never found voice work necessary to enjoy a game or story

[cindercatz]

I agree with the single title thing, but my solution would actually be more voicework, with the actors recording a fairly large (say six or twelve) sets of first names for each of six last names in the various tones that would fit the lines in which the first or last name could be used, and then applying the appropriate recording to whatever lines they apply to modularly, like in sports games like NBA2K. That way you can add more affecting, immersive title address to dialogue, and you don't have to fully record however many lines would use them over and over for each name. (edit: also, it'd save on disc space and streamline some of the data finding and loading, good bang for the buck)

Modifié par cindercatz, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:40 .

[Realmzmaster]

I am fully aware they existed in the past having played those games and I like a voiced protagonist. I am not a member of the twitch generation.

The technology is now at point where I can here my character and not just read text boxes. I have been there and done that for quite awhile. It is refreshing to hear my character in something beside my head.

[DaringMoosejaw]

I suppose I don't mind either, though I lean toward voiced as it makes things feel more alive. However, if they voice NPCs, I prefer that they voice the PCs as well. Going around as a mute feels very off and if they were going to do that, I'd rather they get rid of voices all together.

And is it possible to have a discussion on this without implying that whoever prefers the option you don't like is some sort of fratboy buffoon and whoever prefers the option you do like is an erudite connoisseur?

Modifié par DaringMoosejaw, 08 novembre 2012 - 05:40 .

[Chaos Lord Malek]

For me voiced protagonist is a must in any game. Everything, including talking-to self had to be voiced. The sound - of any kind makes huge amount of atmosphere for the game. Imagine if The Nameless One could talk in everything - yeah, they would have to cut some things (or some not, when you have options like Truth / Lie which are same lines) probably.

For instance - Legacy of Kain has ridicules amount of voice work, with best voice actors ever, so its possible to make a great game with voiced protagonist as well.

[Wozearly]

Lethys1 wrote...

I realize games haven't really been doing what I'm about to say since the early to mid 2000s...

I personally would trade voicework in entirely for a fuller, branching RPG experience, but I realize that isn't a popular opinion.

You may be speaking against the trend in the industry, and to a lesser or greater extent against fan opinion, but you're definitely not alone in holding that view. Its come up numerous times on the BSN and, from memory, David Gaider mentioned at one of the Cons that every time Bioware have taken stock of fan views there tend to be just under half of players saying that they would prefer an unvoiced protagonist.

One of the key reasons for requesting this is that voice acting tends to lead to more linear conversational paths. Admittedly, another is that people get gripey when it feels they have to second guess how their character is going to say something in addition to wondering what the effect is going to be on the person they're saying it to, which is an equally valid criticism but addressing the implementation of voice acting more than its indirect consequences.

A lot of themes in game development go in cycles, so its worth keeping the faith.

[Kahpya]

 I definitely think there's pros and cons to the two approaches. both have limits and advances in their own way in different aspects. But all-in-all it depends on the game type.

I like the voiced approach since it give life and feeling to the charecters in the game you can't make the same distinct accent the dalish have in DA2 with just a textbox.
You can still tell the reader that the accent is there but if the reader never heard that accent, how would they know what to make of that notation? 
Still voiced games has a big limit since it would be to expensive to add every possibility to a conversation that is thinkable (i'm lead to believe - i'm no expert).
I would think that its easier and cheaper for the writers in bioware to add the dialog in a textbox, than it ever would be to have the voice-actors do a thousand more lines for the purpose of more variety in the game.

Bottom line is that it depends on that gametype, i think the mute PC in DA:O was good since it was a good way to get a game out that had been long in the making, everything else was voiced so no big loss that the PC wasn't and the overall story was really satisfying IMO.
Since DA2 was a fastpaced game like the ME-serie they could "easily" implement that a voiced PC would be preferable, they had done it allready and it worked with ME and since we couldn't make "our own" charecter they shouldn't think about different races and accents that that would acquire. we were told a story from a predefined point of view, we did have some choices on how to get there but it was a predefined charecter and story that only could end in one way. and many may not agree with me on this but i think for that story it did work.

Maybe because i didn't think of DA2 as a sequal to DA:O but more another game but with the same world-theme.

Its more dependen on what type of game and story bioware will tell and then implement voiced, textbox appropiatly or something inbetween. Don't know if that was of topic but i do agree with OP that more RPG aspects would be nice in DA:I with that i mean more conversation variation - since that is what i would define as RPGs number one rule.

Modifié par nikihap, 08 novembre 2012 - 08:23 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

It's funny, but with all the suggestions we BSNers have for how to improve current franchises, both in terms of story and game mechanics, we should all just get together, outline our various skills, start our own company and use Kickstarter to get a game made. Some of us know how to program and animate. Some of us are gifted artists and could do concept work (or possibly pre-rendered backgrounds). Some of us would love to give voice-acting a crack and some of us are creative writers, etc.

[Bernhardtbr]

Asking text to replace voice is the same as asking 2D to replace 3D. The only voice that can be sacrificed is the protagonist´s one.

Modifié par Bernhardtbr, 08 novembre 2012 - 08:29 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Lethys1 wrote...

I realize games haven't really been doing what I'm about to say since the early to mid 2000s, but I think there should be less voicework done for this game and it should be replaced by text.

I fully understand and sympathize with this viewpoint, but I think it is important to understand that they really want ALL the dialog to be voiced.  This is one of Bioware's goals with this series.  That's not the same as saying that some creativity would not be of benefit.  I think the biggest problem people have is that their suggestions amount to "let's have the unvoiced protagonist!" or demanding more options without ever coming up with cunning ways to DO this that work with Bioware's stated goal.

Some time ago (a couple months, not going to dig it up) I made the suggestion that there were ways they could squeeze more out of their budget in this area without devolving into unvoiced dialog.  One of the problems with large amounts of dialog isn't just the voiceover work (voice artists tend to be paid in a manner that reflects the number of recording sessions involved, not the bulk of the voice acting, so the biggest expense, aside from disc space, is making changes, not exactly just having large amounts of dialog). One of the big expenses is that after the dialog is written and recorded, it has to be forwarded to the animation department for the whole thing to be animated.  

So, I suggested that they think about having scenes that required absolutely minimal animation, but still allowed for a lively dialog, such as having the PC and a companion talk while taking in the view over a castle wall, or while sititng in the back of a wagon.  Position your camera so that you only see the sunset in the distance or the terrain passing by and you potentially have a great saving while still keeping consistent with the voiced and cinematic qualities of the rest of the game.  Here's the best part: David Gaider and some of the other devs indicated that this was an actually interesting suggestion and might potentially be of use, depending, of course, on a great many other factors.

If you think that trading dialog for text could be useful, this is what you need to take into consideration.  They are not going to turn voiced conversation into text conversation.  It is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.  So, the first thing to consider is, what methods exist in the game for delivering text?  That's an easy answer--the codex is *the* means of delivering text in the game.

They made great strides in that area between DA:O and DA2, although few people noticed or mentioned it.  In Origins the codex was a HORRIBLE means of delivering ANY kind of exposition because of the way it was organized and the way it was appended to the game.  If you wanted to read the codex entry, you either had to catch it at the time it popped up on the screen (difficult, many times), or you had to manually open all the numbered entries to figure out WHICH ONE was the one you just got.  Tedious and annoying.  And then, most of the time it was just a largely irrelevant little story or short dissertation.

DA2 was a HUGE, HUGE improvement over this.  The codex entries were actually named and listed.  The environmental ones that you got by, say, clicking on notes on tables actually popped up so you could READ them right there instead of having to go hunting for them after the fact, and many of them were short enough  and immediately relevant enough that you'd WANT to read them right there.  You learned a lot more about Gascard du'Puis, for instance, if you read the various notes around his estate while you were looking for him.

So, if you're going to ask for more text, that's what you need to keep in mind.  Text comes exclusively from the codex.  So, to be useful, suggestions about text need to involve improvements in the value and delivery of the codex.

Here's something they could do:  for investigative-style quests that involve, say, piecing together info from a ton of documents scattered around, have an actual quest show up in your quest log that says "find five notes".  That would give you a number to shoot for and encourage you to be a little more diligent in searching the crannies.  It's helpful to remember, though, that quests like these can be spectacularly annoying to some people because they HATE having uncompleted quests sitting in their log.  So maybe you'd want to have more total notes than the quest number.

Or, you can subtly alter the way the quest objectives work.  Tie the quest to the area, so that when you leave, whether you found all the notes or not, the quest gets knocked out of your log as completed because you can't do anything more with it now.  Maybe have progressive sub-quests.  Find 5 notes.  Find 3 more notes.  Find 2 more notes.

Another other big thing would be that you can't just throw relevant/important codex entries in at random.  It has to be part of the game from the start.  In the tutorial section, there needs to be at least a small quest that involves reading stuff and making use of it--you must train players from the very beginning that actually reading the stuff benefits them, aside from the miniscule amount of XP they get for clicking on the book.

Lastly, there has to be some consideration for novel ways to hide and reveal things or to appear to hide them.  This is a terrible, terrible problem in the Dragon Age games due to the way dialog options are labeled, interactables are revealed by a Tab, and crannies are visible on the mini-map.  Not to mention that a large number of people complain loudly and ceaselessly on these forums that every. conceivable. result. of. every. possible. choice. should be 100% transparent at all times.  Then they complain that things are too simplistic and obvious.  Folks, you ASKED for that.  You may not have THOUGHT that was what you were asking for, but it WAS.  There's little to no opportunity for the player to exercise cleverness through their dialog choices due to the way the conversation wheel works.  Does fixing this mean the conversation wheel needs to be redesigned?  Not necessarily.  It does mean that some execeptional creativity may be required in order to have both at once.

[Allan Schumacher]

Combat-only design replaced more creative ideas involving skill checks, as an example.

Just as a note, I think if you look back in RPG history Combat-Only design has been a heavy mainstay. I find many early RPGs to really be not a whole lot more than combat simulators and if you were lucky there was a decent story attached to it.

[Medhia Nox]

If we "must" spend resources in voice conversation - why can't a Ventrillo-like phonetic speaker be integrated.

I could actually put in Medhia - and it would probably "look" like - 'Me - Dee - uh' and it would say it... albeit in a robotic voice.

====

And why... why must my character say something so different than what's written? To hold my interest?

This is my single biggest complaint.

====

And can we have a more advance "tonal" choice selection for our PC? I'd like to have more option to choose whether my character is exasperated - or annoyed - or apathetic - or cruel.

And how about different voices? Cause sometimes I'd like to have my character voiced with a deep voice.

There are so many limitations to the voiced protagonist...

===

So could we at LEAST consider having a mute button for the protagonist... cause I don't mind using my imagination.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 novembre 2012 - 09:06 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Combat-only design replaced more creative ideas involving skill checks, as an example.

Just as a note, I think if you look back in RPG history Combat-Only design has been a heavy mainstay. I find many early RPGs to really be not a whole lot more than combat simulators and if you were lucky there was a decent story attached to it.

Which old CRPGs actually allowed for skill checks to circumvent combat? I'm trying to remember any and coming up blank.

[TheJediSaint]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So could we at LEAST consider having a mute button for the protagonist... cause I don't mind using my imagination.

Because people who like voice protagonists lack that?

[Kail Ashton]

I'm amazed at the underserved sense of worth that the TC has to even sugests ANY kind of gaming advice to profesionals(more or less >__> for a field he knows nothing about while suggesting to use out of date practices that he himself admits to being obsolute to address a non existant problem he knows nothing about

*slowly claps* my gosh that was some impressive self indulgences right there, bravo to you good sir~! truely you are the stereotypical bioware fan

[Imp of the Perverse]

cindercatz wrote...

Personally, I'd prefer to gain more branching at the expense of game length per playthrough instead. Voicework is really one of those things that BioWare is head and shoulders above the vast majority of their competition, so I don't really want to see less of it. I love banters dearly, for instance, and I hope to see more variation in basic interaction (both in dialogue and animation) owing to changing relationships between characters. I don't really want to go backwards in those areas for more text.

I agree, with voice acting quality steadily improving, a fully voiced game is great.

Medhia Nox wrote...
And why... why must my character say something so different than what's written? To hold my interest?

This is my single biggest complaint.

The thinking is probably that fully writing out the response, and then reading it, is slow and redundant, and maybe takes up too much screen space at console resolutions. Deus Ex: Human Revolution did it though, and it worked out. Their persuasion system really depended upon precise wording since you were usually trying to tailor your response to the character's personality. It'd write out the first line or two of the response, along with a description of the tone (aggresive, flattery, etc.) so you pretty much knew exactly what you were getting.

[Fast Jimmy]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Combat-only design replaced more creative ideas involving skill checks, as an example.

Just as a note, I think if you look back in RPG history Combat-Only design has been a heavy mainstay. I find many early RPGs to really be not a whole lot more than combat simulators and if you were lucky there was a decent story attached to it.

Which old CRPGs actually allowed for skill checks to circumvent combat? I'm trying to remember any and coming up blank.

The Fallout series, in spades. You could sneak, talk or even Science your way out of tons of combat encounters.
In the same vein, Arcanum.
Pretty much any TES game or a game with either a Speech skill or a Sneak skill.
Which leads into pretty much any game with a D&D/AD&D build.
Lots of games. 

[Nerevar-as]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Combat-only design replaced more creative ideas involving skill checks, as an example.

Just as a note, I think if you look back in RPG history Combat-Only design has been a heavy mainstay. I find many early RPGs to really be not a whole lot more than combat simulators and if you were lucky there was a decent story attached to it.

Don´t forget when CRPGs where basically dungeon crawlers.

But it´s true BW has been going for too much of a cinematograph aproach for my liking. In RPGs I want to play a game, not watch a CG interactive movie.