68 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

I like the voice protagonist, dialogue wheel and the tones. It allows me to know for my roleplaying experience what line the developers consider aggressive or diplomatic. This way I can stay in character. Actually DAO did the same thing with how the text options were presented down the list of choices once you figure out the system.
The tones enhance my roleplaying because I do not have to sit there as I said and guess what line the developers think is sarcastic. In DAO I was thrown out of character sometimes because the choice I picked did not match the character I was roleplaying.

But since it is a fait accompli like the save import for DA3 gamers will have to accept it and hope Bioware (like they stated with the save import) will make the system better.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

OP is right 70%.
Vague comments ftw!

[xsdob]

I roleplayed in halo 3 and that gave no choice at all. And yet I was able to roleplay as a cyborg who had a memory wipe and was trying to piece together his past while fighting an alien empire.

I think you'll be able to manage.

[Maria Caliban]

fchopin wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
I don't think it's Bioware's job to cater to a restricted imagination.

You are wrong, the tone icons are for restricted minds who only use restricted imagination and not for people who use vast amounts of imagination.

You are both wrong. cRPGs are for people with restricted imaginations that restrict their mind with vast restrictions of mind with games lack vastness!

People with real imagination play Frisbee.

If you have to ask me why, that's just proof you're a restrictor.

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm sorry - but watching a television show doesn't require you to "use your imagination".

Anything dictated to you by another artist requires no imagination.

It's like this is some sort of contest.

Well, I brought my imaginary girlfriend to prom, beat that.

Not even reality gets to dictate to my imagination!

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 09 novembre 2012 - 10:20 .

[mousestalker]

Maria Caliban wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
I don't think it's Bioware's job to cater to a restricted imagination.

You are wrong, the tone icons are for restricted minds who only use restricted imagination and not for people who use vast amounts of imagination.

You are both wrong. cRPGs are for people with restricted imaginations that restrict their mind with vast restrictions of mind with games lack vastness!

People with real imagination play Frisbee.

If you have to ask me why, that's just proof you're a restrictor.

I prefer gardening. When I'm pulling weeds, I'm imagining them as everyone who has been disagreeable (especially all those maniacs and idiots in traffic). When I spray, I slaughter whole groups of people in my yard.

Every gardener is secretly a killer, whether they admit it or not.

Organic gardeners are even worse by the way. Regular gardeners use pesticides, which are quick kills. Organic gardeners prolong the agony.

Back to the main topic. Why not play as it pleases you? If you ask nicely, Bioware may very well allow you to turn the VP off. Which would allow those who vocalize their PC's to play without an interfering voice.

Modifié par mousestalker, 09 novembre 2012 - 10:21 .

[fchopin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

People with real imagination play Frisbee.

I am not going to argue against Frisbees, you win.

[jillabender]

mousestalker wrote…

Back to the main topic. Why not play as it pleases you? If you ask nicely, Bioware may very well allow you to turn the VP off. Which would allow those who vocalize their PC's to play without an interfering voice.

I know there are many people who would really like the option to mute the PC, but BioWare has stated that it's simply not on the table for DA3. David Gaider has stated that they don't believe it would work well, because voiced PCs and silents PCs are written very differently, and the cinematics are designed with a voiced PC in mind.

[Potato Cat]

jillabender wrote...

mousestalker wrote…

Back to the main topic. Why not play as it pleases you? If you ask nicely, Bioware may very well allow you to turn the VP off. Which would allow those who vocalize their PC's to play without an interfering voice.

I know there are many people who would really like the option to mute the PC, but BioWare has stated that it's simply not on the table for DA3. David Gaider has stated that they don't believe it would work well, because voiced PCs and silents PCs are written very differently, and the cinematics are designed with a voiced PC in mind.

Or you could mute the game everytime your PC opens their mouth and unmute when they're finished.

EVERYONE WINS!

[ISAWRIT]

I never really considered DA2's dialogue wheel to be less imaginative than DA:O's sentence list. Actually, I had to think more about which response I chose in DA2 because Hawke would on occasion say something else I hadn't anticipated. With DA:O, the sentence you picked was the sentence you said.

But regardless of the system, you'll still wonder about the consequences of your statements.

[Herr Uhl]

EntropicAngel wrote...

DA ][ DA ]|[

I really hope this way of writing it doesn't catch on.

Don't have much to say on this subject other than if it is to be voiced, I want tone indicators.

[Pzykozis]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It's like this is some sort of contest.

Well, I brought my imaginary girlfriend to prom, beat that.

Not even reality gets to dictate to my imagination!

I once had an imaginary prom where I brought my real girlfriend.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

EntropicAngel wrote...
But I wasn't able to role-play. Everytime I tried to pick a choice based on what it said, the tone would almost always confict with how I'd intended to say it. And the "diplomatic" or "aggressive" or whichever other options didn't say the same thing as that choice, so I couldn't pick them.

You know what? Those purple mask icon isn't really meant for sarcasm. It is designed for joker archtype character. Wonder why Gamlen called Hawke a clown? It's not for bitter sarcastic personality. Fenris could throw tons of calm sarcastic comments to Merril but not Hawke, since everyone will definitely think those comments are jokes. 

EntropicAngel wrote...

The tone system inhibited my ability to role-play.

The tone system ruin my roleplay. Wait, I never roleplay Hawke. In my view he's merely a third person character created by BioWare like any other Non RPG characters such as Super Mario, Donkey Kong or Cao Cao in Dynasty Warriors series or Ryu and Ken in Street Fighter, etc...  

EntropicAngel wrote...


But there are so many times when I picked a choice based on what it said, its difference from the other choices, and was subsequently annoyed when Hawke used this smart@ss tone when I was simply trying to be a neutral party in a situation. I don't know if this is a hinderance of the voiced protag system, but it just doesn't work for me.

Hawke is more annoying when he used his smart@ass tone to autodialogue.

EntropicAngel wrote...

Anyone else feel this way?

You are not alone

EntropicAngel wrote...

And I fear this will happen for DA ]|[. I'm worried that the tone option (and to a lesser extent a monotone would have the same effect, not imitating the tone, but it would at least allow me to pick the choice) in dialog that is bound to certain responses will hinder my ability to role-play.

I bet it will happen for DA ]I[ because some people find it's cool to "discover" BioWare's protagonist personaliy or character development. /sarcasm 

[Pink Pony]

Maria Caliban wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
I don't think it's Bioware's job to cater to a restricted imagination.

You are wrong, the tone icons are for restricted minds who only use restricted imagination and not for people who use vast amounts of imagination.

You are both wrong. cRPGs are for people with restricted imaginations that restrict their mind with vast restrictions of mind with games lack vastness!

People with real imagination play Frisbee.

If you have to ask me why, that's just proof you're a restrictor.
 

Actually, people with real  imaginations play frisbee with an imaginary frisbee and imaginary people.

People with imaginary imaginations play... something. I'm not sure what. Or they don't actually exist, therefore, they don't play anything.

Modifié par Pink Pony, 10 novembre 2012 - 01:54 .

[iheartbob]

I'm sure bioware is well aware of the dissapointment people had from DAII regarding this topic.

I don't know why we need so many threads on it.

[Realmzmaster]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

I like the voice protagonist, dialogue wheel and the tones. It allows me to know for my roleplaying experience what line the developers consider aggressive or diplomatic. This way I can stay in character. Actually DAO did the same thing with how the text options were presented down the list of choices once you figure out the system.
The tones enhance my roleplaying because I do not have to sit there as I said and guess what line the developers think is sarcastic. In DAO I was thrown out of character sometimes because the choice I picked did not match the character I was roleplaying.

But since it is a fait accompli like the save import for DA3 gamers will have to accept it and hope Bioware (like they stated with the save import) will make the system better.

I disagree.

In DA:O, they responded to the text--not some implied tone. If it was a sarcastic comment, they'd respond appropriately, but in DA ][, there are many times when it's not sarcastic, just vague or the neutral response, and sarcastic Hawke turns it up to eleven.

Actually if you look down the list of responses in DAO it was written with different implied tones in mind. Some of the responses were aggressive and others were diplomatic from what I gathered. YMMV.

[slimgrin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

DA ][ DA ]|[

I really hope this way of writing it doesn't catch on.

Don't have much to say on this subject other than if it is to be voiced, I want tone indicators.

My body language and what I say are how I communicate, not some symbol flashing above my head. Again, it's just Bioware doing what they do: simplify, streamline. DX:HR is the new standard in this regard. That game did it right, and is miles ahead of what Bioware has been doing.

Modifié par slimgrin, 10 novembre 2012 - 02:52 .

[Archyyy]

Conversations are where I get most of my immersion so its extremely important they offer choices. DAII certainly didnt.

Voiced protagonist would be fine if it didnt limit dialogue (which it does) but what hurts immersion the most is the lack of choices and the paraphrasing. Half the time there isnt a suitable option and the other half what you end up saying is all wrong. And pretty much in every conversation there are occasions I'd like to say something but dont get the chance to do so. Do away with paraphrases and add a lot more choices and player lines and problem solved.

Modifié par Archyyy, 10 novembre 2012 - 03:27 .

[Twisted Path]

I don't like the dialogue wheel or three tone character choice you got with DA2 and I agree completely with the original poster. I much prefer RPGs with a silent protagonist and large branching dialogue trees.

That having been said I do think the dialogue wheel actually worked really well in Mass Effect 2. ME2 introduced auto-dialogue and you were usually choosing 3 (or sometimes 2,) options off the wheel, with things branching out a little more for big decisions, but I felt the game still managed to let you create a pretty complex character within those limitations.

I think a big part of that was the fact that the middle option didn't seem to be fixed to any alignment/mindset/tone. Sometimes the middle option would be neutral, sometimes it would be diplomatic or aggressive but less so than the extremes, and often it would be the same as the diplomatic or aggressive choice but with a different justification. Having some elements of your dialogue choices not being fixed to one of the two or three color codes seemed to add a lot of nuance, or at least create the illusion of it.

Mass Effect was great but I had a lot of problems with the dialogue wheel: you often didn't actually say what the text seemed to indicate you would. Also the game seemed to forget sometimes that it wasn't supposed to be Knights of the Old Republic and the renegade choice would just be senselessly evil. ME2 fixed a lot of those problems (for me at least,) and it worked pretty well. Lots of people who talk about various playthroughs of ME2 compare their various Commander Shepards and they do seem like really different characters. Then of course in ME3 the middle option doesn't exist and most of the time there's little difference between Renegade or Paragon Shepard either. Streamlining sucks.

Just saying: the dialogue wheel can and has worked for a Bioware game, but ME2 is the only case where I think it did.

The three-tone wheel also worked perfectly for Alpha Protocol, but I think a lot of that came from the fact that the game's theme was being a spy who's a master of manipulation. Michael Thorton may really have been constantly smug, or he could have just been acting that way to rattle uptight people as part of his mission. In Dragon Age 2 you have the same sort of dialogue options (professional, smug or agressive,) but Hawke doesn't have the same sort of justification, since Hawke isn't a spy.

Modifié par Twisted Path, 10 novembre 2012 - 03:38 .

[Plaintiff]

I think knowing the context (ie, tone) of what you're about to say is far more important than simply knowing the content (ie, words).

A decent portion of communication is non-verbal. The words that you say are less important than the way that you say them; body language, facial expression, and yes, tone, are all more important than words. Tone is meaning, tone is context. I could say the exact same sentence three times, but the meaning of that sentence changes drastically, depending on whether I'm being sincere, sarcastic or sullen when I say it.

You might argue that you can 'imagine' your tone in other roleplaying games, and you're probably right. But the fact of the matter is that Bioware writes all the lines of dialogue with a specific intent in mind. If I, as the player, am going to make an informed decision, I need to know what that intent is.

Even if all I had to go on were the symbols that indicate context, that would still give me better, more reliable information than knowing the content without context.

[WhiteThunder]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

fchopin wrote...
No, thinking hard on what option to choose and what will really happen by the choice you pick is hard and requires imagination.

You mean, by your previous logic, exactly how DA2 works?

I'm getting off this ride before it regresses further. Toodle pip.

Not how DA2 works, because with DA2 the choice you pick has nothing to do with what happens.

[Orian Tabris]

You are limited to your own imagination, and in games, the imagination of the developers. That's all there is to say on the subject of imagination, so get over that point.

[Josielyn]

What if you could hear the recorded voiced response when you mouse over the icon, before you actually select it? THEN you'd know for certain what was going to be said. Would that make it a little better? Just curious...