Aller au contenu

Photo

Why is "Meta-Gaming" frowned apon?


175 réponses à ce sujet

#101
Big I

Big I
  • Members
  • 2 886 messages

Suprez30 wrote...
Meta-gaming is bad when the game failed  to make your choice clear.

Companion : hey what's up man ? Do you want to drink Ale with me ?
Hero : Nah not today
Companion : I hate you ... I'm leaving this group!

suprez : Time to reload. .... sight.

if you want the perfect ending .. That a playstyle. More power to you. I do it also. If you meta-game when you never wanted to do it.. The dev messed something up.



I agree with this. I metagame to the extent that I work out the outcome I want, then roll up a player that would choose that outcome (e.g. if I want to use the Dark Ritual, it wouldn't make sense to play a devout Andrastian who hates Morrigan). I definitely prefer that approach to RPing a diplomatic Hawke who finds out that they can't stop the templars and mages going to war. However if game mechanics force you to metagame meticulously to get the outcome you want (e.g. resolving loyalty conflicts in ME2, getting dialogue options like siding with Petrice in DA2) I resent it.

#102
cindercatz

cindercatz
  • Members
  • 1 354 messages
Yeah Act 3 went off the rails (and more on rails at the same time :? ).

I felt in DA2 that I was basically metagaming all the way through it. I knew after playing DA:O and reading all the codex entries etc. that Hawke's family must have been on the run/ in hiding, and there must have been hard decisions and a general struggle to survive and stay free and all of that, so that's how I played my character and will play my others, but I also felt there was nothing much in the game to actively support my stance or to give me much of an emotional connection to my Hawke and his family (first Hawke was male). There was a background drumbeat of oppression, but Hawke remains Andrastian no matter what, there is still the Chantry's fairly central role throughout no matter what, there are multiple examples of Crazy Mages United and not but a few examples of outright Templar abuse. When it should have mattered with Bethany and the mages you can save in the earlier parts of DA2, Bethany's peaceful state in Act 3 if with the Circle and resentment if with the Wardens, and the other mages blaming you for their issues and turning into yet more examples of Crazy Mage negate any balance there would have been. Carver going Templar in his branch out of his inferiority complex doesn't really follow either.

I never got to play Hawke's origin (there should have and should always be some form of distinct and playable/experienceable origins in DA), so I had no real connection to anything that came before Kirkwall, not Lothering, not the sibling that died, not the family's mage history, and not enough to the mother. The mage/templar divide became an abstract factor more than a personal driver. So I have to metagame DA2 throughout.

#103
JediMB

JediMB
  • Members
  • 695 messages
I try to minimize meta-gaming. I think my one big exception when I played through DA2 was changing Bethany's fate by replaying the entire Deep Roads level without her.

Beyond that, I mostly just meta-game before I start playing, when I internally design my character. I'll usually have some sort of goal in mind for my playthrough, and intentionally choose a personality compatible with that.

#104
Knight of Dane

Knight of Dane
  • Members
  • 7 451 messages
I must admit I don't really see the big deal.

Sure, if it's such a situation that everyone metagames that part then the game failed.
The Mass Effect 3 ending for example, a good bunch of people choose their ending depending on what they know what it will lead to and not based on their Shepard's morale.

But when It comes down to it I must admit I can't see why anyone should concern themselves with how others play the game.

#105
Potato Cat

Potato Cat
  • Members
  • 7 784 messages
For my first playthrough, I always ony have one save plus the autosave(s) and I save very rarely. The only time I don't do this is if I've heard of some dodgy bugs or the game has been freezing a lot and I've had to repeat a BUNCH of content a few times to make up for it.

But when creating my perfect canon, I do meta-game to help make the world as interesting as possible, (not as sunshine and rainbows as possible mind you - I keep Zathrian alive, for example, despite the fact I could have cured the humans and in turn, helped the Dalish in the long run, or side with Petrice to keep her alive.

Modifié par Elfman, 11 novembre 2012 - 04:35 .


#106
Guest_Hanz54321_*

Guest_Hanz54321_*
  • Guests

Sejborg wrote...

If the point was to show the abuse of power by a mage, I think it would have worked better if the mage used his power for a more relateable kind of power . . .


It was Hawke's mother?!  How much more relatable do you want?  A mage killed your (PC's) beloved mom.  People don't get upset at the prospect of someone killing mom and using her as a chatty cathy doll for kicks?!

:lol:

#107
cindercatz

cindercatz
  • Members
  • 1 354 messages

Elfman wrote...

For my first playthrough, I always ony have one save plus the autosave(s) and I save very rarely. The only time I don't do this is if I've heard of some dodgy bugs or the game has been freezing a lot and I've had to repeat a BUNCH of content a few times to make up for it.


That's what I try to do, and I've been burned a few times doing it, too. In KoTOR, there was a problem where if Mission Vao's stealth number was too high, Carth would fail to recognize her in the next dialogue and you'd be stuck. I didn't have a save before the mission and ended up having to speed play through the first half of the game again to preserve that playthrough, and metagame my choices in that part to avoid the bug. That resulted in me almost always playing with two saves that I rotate along with the autosave, so that I'll always have one save before I get into a game killing bug situation. Occasionally I use it in regular gameplay, like going back to bring Anders on the deeproads expedition along with my initial choice of Bethany, so that she wouldn't die (seeing as my Hawke's only motivation at that point was protecting his sister).

Recently I had a similar problem with the new X-COM game. I'd gotten to the end of the game on the ironwhatever, no second saves mode (auto-save only), or at least it seemed like the end to me, and I decided to do a few more random missions to research one last technology, and the game bugged and my entire playthrough is lost on a save that won't load. It's not as great an issue as it would be for me because X-COM has practically no story to speak of, but playing that mode cost me that playthrough and all my marines I'd developed, so it's still the issue of needing an extra save, having to metagame just a little bit, to avoid losing the playthrough entirely.

#108
aries1001

aries1001
  • Members
  • 1 752 messages

Mary Kirby wrote...

JasonPogo wrote...

Like In DA2 supposedly you were supposed to be able to save your mom but because all the play testers just reset to an early save if she died they took the option out.  


This is actually a misconception. There was never, at any time in development, an ending to the quest All That Remains that allowed Leandra to survive. 

We considered adding an alternate ending because of our QA feedback. But we decided against it because the purpose the quest serves in the story is to give Hawke (regardless of their own class) a personal reason to fear the misuse of magic.

And actually, we never seriously considered any ending where Leandra survived. The ending we might have chosen to add would have been a blood magic sacrifice to keep Leandra around as an undead.


I didn't get this message out of this quest. If that was the intention, I did not see it nor did I as a misuse of magic. And even then, I would have to ask: What magic?

To me in this quest magic was not used very much as the mage still had to sow and do a lot of stitching in order to recreate his beloved.

#109
Potato Cat

Potato Cat
  • Members
  • 7 784 messages

aries1001 wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

JasonPogo wrote...

Like In DA2 supposedly you were supposed to be able to save your mom but because all the play testers just reset to an early save if she died they took the option out.  


This is actually a misconception. There was never, at any time in development, an ending to the quest All That Remains that allowed Leandra to survive. 

We considered adding an alternate ending because of our QA feedback. But we decided against it because the purpose the quest serves in the story is to give Hawke (regardless of their own class) a personal reason to fear the misuse of magic.

And actually, we never seriously considered any ending where Leandra survived. The ending we might have chosen to add would have been a blood magic sacrifice to keep Leandra around as an undead.


I didn't get this message out of this quest. If that was the intention, I did not see it nor did I as a misuse of magic. And even then, I would have to ask: What magic?

To me in this quest magic was not used very much as the mage still had to sow and do a lot of stitching in order to recreate his beloved.


Yeah because blood magic certaintly wasn't used to reanimate the corpse. Image IPB

Don't worry, Bioware writers, I understood the importance of Leandra's death.

#110
Rune-Chan

Rune-Chan
  • Members
  • 1 054 messages

Mary Kirby wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

So why was there never a quest to give Hawke a "personal reason" to fear the misuse of power by the templars?


Because they already had one. Hawke's father was an apostate, their family lived in hiding from the Templars all Hawke's life. Either Hawke was an apostate, or had an apostate sister. The Templars were a constant, looming personal threat.


True, but all we ever had to go on with this was a few lines of dialogue in regards to "The Templars might get us".

We then walk around with a staff on our back in front of Templars, without them giving a damn about it. We can even go so far as to use blood magic in front of one and no consequences occur. Yes Bethany can get taken away, but seeing as the only danger she gets put in is by a blood mage, it hardly helps in that regard.

A threat needs to have weight behind it to have any real impact.

Hanz54321 wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

If the point was to show the abuse of power by a mage, I think it would have worked better if the mage used his power for a more relateable kind of power . . .


It was Hawke's mother?!  How much more relatable do you want?  A mage killed your (PC's) beloved mom. People don't get upset at the prospect of someone killing mom and using her as a chatty cathy doll for kicks?!

Image IPB


No.

Because saying "This character is your beloved mother" is not the same thing as creating a character that emulates that feeling. A character being "related" to you, or being a child is not a good enough reason to care about them. You need to make the character worth caring about in their own right.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 11 novembre 2012 - 05:52 .


#111
Mark of the Dragon

Mark of the Dragon
  • Members
  • 702 messages

Mary Kirby wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...


Thats what we were supposed to get out of that scene? I totally did not get that vibe at all.


No. Nothing in the scene is supposed to convey, "BE AFRAID OF BAD MAGES!" But the purpose of the plot in the overall story is to have the player experience a personal loss due to the abuse of power by a mage. Not everyone is going to play that plot and say, "Maleficarum are jerks!" And that's fine. But the game in general is heavily weighted toward "Templars are jerks!" and we wanted at least one chance for a reasonable player to feel they had been personally wronged by mages.

The vibe i got is the game is wrighted against mages not templar. Seriously every mage you met in the game seemed to turn to blood magic. It was a disappointment actually. I wanted to see the conflict portrayed more equally. I know the game is fantasy so it is not suppose to be realistic but the game lost a lot of reality in my opinion due to this.
Also  that alternate option would have been awesome and I am sad you did not add it.

#112
Nerevar-as

Nerevar-as
  • Members
  • 5 375 messages

Mary Kirby wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

So why was there never a quest to give Hawke a "personal reason" to fear the misuse of power by the templars?


Because they already had one. Hawke's father was an apostate, their family lived in hiding from the Templars all Hawke's life. Either Hawke was an apostate, or had an apostate sister. The Templars were a constant, looming personal threat.


Except they weren´t. We could use magic in front of Cullen and he wouldn´t bat an eye.

On the other side, every other mage we found was a BM trying to kill us for walking into them, so I´d say it was always very personal there.

It looks gameplay conveyed the opposite of what was intended through narrative.

#113
Tundrya

Tundrya
  • Members
  • 9 messages
Never mind...

Modifié par Tundrya, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:37 .


#114
PsychoBlonde

PsychoBlonde
  • Members
  • 5 130 messages

JasonPogo wrote...
  I just don't get the hate....


I think it's a holdover from the attitudes many people have in tabletop gaming.  (Nor do I think it's fair to attribute this opinion to the devs--I have yet to see one criticize people for meta-gaming.  They just take it into account when they're designing.)

I actually like meta-gaming quite a lot, in fact, I tend to run my tabletop games in such a way as to *encourage* it.  I write up story interludes for my players where they learn about things their characters may not know, and have no means to know.  Why?  Because I've seen so many games fall apart when the GM is doing a bad job of conveying information strictly through direct interface with the players.

Unless you're intentionally running a mystery game, the characters ought to know way more about the world than the players do.  Not necessarily about the inner workings of the world, but the characters ought to have a developed filtering mechanism for what is unusual and what isn't.  The players have no such mechanism because their information all comes through the same channel--asking questions of the GM.  It is INCREDIBLY easy for players to become completely deranged over some bit of information that they extracted by excessive questioning but that the characters would automatically dismiss as trivial and ordinary, and thus unimportant.  So I use the meta-game knowledge to subtly direct my players attention toward what's actually relevant.

Some GM's don't like to do this--in fact, they have no problem with the game going off on a lengthy tangent about Syphrian weaving styles because their players have gotten fixated on the GM's description of a rug pattern.  They might even find it amusing to turn this into the actual focus of the game.  Some GM's (and some players) see this as an ad-libbing challenge, and it'll become a contest between the players asking ever more arcane questions and the GM struggling to be ever more wildly inventive.

Me, I see this as a waste of time.  I do tabletop one night a week (and we frequently miss sessions--it's a small group and if someone gets sick or their car breaks down, we can't play) and we're lucky if we get to play for 2 1/2 hours.  I don't have time for the rug-weaving if I ever want to get to the parts where I cleave vile caitiffs to the kine.  I'm not saying the rug-weaving bits can't be cool, it's just that for me, they're not as consistently cool as the bits where I do some actual adventuring.  So I make an effort to keep the focus.

It seems to work for my players--I've never, ever, not even ONCE received a complaint about this.  In fact, I've received many compliments about how my worlds seem very alive, full of detail, and interesting.  (Even when I'm making things up as I go--my players often tell me that they can't tell whether I've prepared or I haven't.  Which is very flattering to my ego, of course.)  I've even run games where people who usually play (and prefer to play) one-dimensional combat monsters have had lengthy discussions about the morals of this and the implications of that and have insisted on gathering information, talking to people, and role-playing.  We did a Shadowrun game where we were 4 sessions in before they had a single combat.  Even then, the fight was nothing much, they rolled over it without effort, but they spent a long time ruminating over it and I think they even felt bad that they hadn't managed to avoid some killing.

Meta-gaming is not a bad thing.  It is a different stylistic approach that results in a different focus for the game.  I find it actually helps in producing a world where the players view NPC's (even nameless, faceless NPC's) as other people with motivations and interests and independent lives, because they get to see more sides than would just be available through direct playing.  It is the difference between two dimensions and three.

#115
Nilbog79

Nilbog79
  • Members
  • 73 messages

cindercatz wrote...
Recently I had a similar problem with the new X-COM game. I'd gotten to the end of the game on the ironwhatever, no second saves mode (auto-save only), or at least it seemed like the end to me, and I decided to do a few more random missions to research one last technology, and the game bugged and my entire playthrough is lost on a save that won't load. It's not as great an issue as it would be for me because X-COM has practically no story to speak of, but playing that mode cost me that playthrough and all my marines I'd developed, so it's still the issue of needing an extra save, having to metagame just a little bit, to avoid losing the playthrough entirely.


Firstly, that's not really metagaming, that's just taking precautions agains technical mishaps. Second, you may still be able to recover your save, if you go to where your folder with the save games is, right-click on it, click 'Properties' and then 'Previous Versions' tab, there may be versions there before the save corruption that can be restored.
Sorry for the offtopic

#116
Guest_Hanz54321_*

Guest_Hanz54321_*
  • Guests

Machines Are Us wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

It was Hawke's mother?!  How much more relatable do you want?  A mage killed your (PC's) beloved mom. People don't get upset at the prospect of someone killing mom and using her as a chatty cathy doll for kicks?!

Image IPB


No.

Because saying "This character is your beloved mother" is not the same thing as creating a character that emulates that feeling. A character being "related" to you, or being a child is not a good enough reason to care about them. You need to make the character worth caring about in their own right.


If a player is not willing to put some imaginative effort into a role playing game, then said player will not see any of the characters as worth caring about.  The game developers can only do so much, then it's on the players.

#117
TheRealJayDee

TheRealJayDee
  • Members
  • 2 952 messages

Nerevar-as wrote...

Except they weren´t. We could use magic in front of Cullen and he wouldn´t bat an eye.

On the other side, every other mage we found was a BM trying to kill us for walking into them, so I´d say it was always very personal there.

It looks gameplay conveyed the opposite of what was intended through narrative.


I couldn't play a mage because of this. I stopped taking mages with me if my party was going to public places. That you couldn't even try to disguise their mage-ishness because the game forced every mage to run around with a freickin' staff. If you do things like that in a story that's supposed to be about mages being oppressed and hunted... not good.

Also, yeah, both templars and mages were unsympathetic ****s or downright crazy criminals for the most part. Not much of a choice...

#118
David Gaider

David Gaider
  • BioWare Employees
  • 4 514 messages
We don't "frown upon" meta-gaming. Meta-gaming is just something people will do. What we frown upon is when people make suggestions based on meta-gaming, as in things they do in-game which can only come about as a result of subsequent plays or by reading about the game before-hand... such as the "all companions are bisexual" complaint.

That's not how we make the game. We make it for your first playthrough, as if you're making decisions based on the moment. If that's not how you play the game, that's your call, but we're not going to make the game on the assumption that you're someone who's going to play the game repeatedly (in-game choices certainly help with repeated play, though I'll point out that's not really why we put them in there) or someone who's researched everything in the game prior to playing it.

But, again, if that's what you intend to do then knock yourself out. There are some folks who utterly panic at the idea they might play the game "wrong"... you'll see that evident before any game comes out, with people wanting spoilers and other information to make sure they have the most "perfect" playthrough possible, and why not if that's what's important to you? We are just not going to help you do it.

#119
Shadow Fox

Shadow Fox
  • Members
  • 4 206 messages

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Except they weren´t. We could use magic in front of Cullen and he wouldn´t bat an eye.

On the other side, every other mage we found was a BM trying to kill us for walking into them, so I´d say it was always very personal there.

It looks gameplay conveyed the opposite of what was intended through narrative.


I couldn't play a mage because of this. I stopped taking mages with me if my party was going to public places. That you couldn't even try to disguise their mage-ishness because the game forced every mage to run around with a freickin' staff. If you do things like that in a story that's supposed to be about mages being oppressed and hunted... not good.

Also, yeah, both templars and mages were unsympathetic ****s or downright crazy criminals for the most part. Not much of a choice...

Actually just having a staff doesn't necessarly scream "I'm a Mage!" staves have many different uses and purposes afterall though it is silly that we have vendors for mage goods.

#120
Rune-Chan

Rune-Chan
  • Members
  • 1 054 messages

Hanz54321 wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

It was Hawke's mother?!  How much more relatable do you want?  A mage killed your (PC's) beloved mom. People don't get upset at the prospect of someone killing mom and using her as a chatty cathy doll for kicks?!

Image IPB


No.

Because saying "This character is your beloved mother" is not the same thing as creating a character that emulates that feeling. A character being "related" to you, or being a child is not a good enough reason to care about them. You need to make the character worth caring about in their own right.


If a player is not willing to put some imaginative effort into a role playing game, then said player will not see any of the characters as worth caring about.  The game developers can only do so much, then it's on the players.


Oh great, an apologist. It is not our jobs to pretend characters are worth caring about. It is the writers jobs to create characters worth caring about.

I cared about a lot of characters in the Dragon Age series. I did not care about Leandra. I am not going to make up reasons to care about a character, I am not going to magic up my own backstory and personality onto a character already created to make me care about them.

Sure, some people may disagree and like her, then perhaps the writers did a good job for some people, but in no shape or form should I have to "imagine" a character being likable. The only character that should require any imagination on the players part is the one who they are playing as.

#121
Dabrikishaw

Dabrikishaw
  • Members
  • 3 251 messages

Hanz54321 wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

It was Hawke's mother?!  How much more relatable do you want?  A mage killed your (PC's) beloved mom. People don't get upset at the prospect of someone killing mom and using her as a chatty cathy doll for kicks?!

Image IPB


No.

Because saying "This character is your beloved mother" is not the same thing as creating a character that emulates that feeling. A character being "related" to you, or being a child is not a good enough reason to care about them. You need to make the character worth caring about in their own right.


If a player is not willing to put some imaginative effort into a role playing game, then said player will not see any of the characters as worth caring about.  The game developers can only do so much, then it's on the players.


It's still up to the developers to give us a compelling reason to care in the first place.

#122
David Gaider

David Gaider
  • BioWare Employees
  • 4 514 messages
Apparently I posted without realizing this was a thread discussing what we did and didn't like about DA2's story. Which can really go in the DA2 forum. If this continues, I'll just close down this thread.

#123
Shadow Fox

Shadow Fox
  • Members
  • 4 206 messages

David Gaider wrote...

We don't "frown upon" meta-gaming. Meta-gaming is just something people will do. What we frown upon is when people make suggestions based on meta-gaming, as in things they do in-game which can only come about as a result of subsequent plays or by reading about the game before-hand... such as the "all companions are bisexual" complaint.

That's not how we make the game. We make it for your first playthrough, as if you're making decisions based on the moment. If that's not how you play the game, that's your call, but we're not going to make the game on the assumption that you're someone who's going to play the game repeatedly (in-game choices certainly help with repeated play, though I'll point out that's not really why we put them in there) or someone who's researched everything in the game prior to playing it.

But, again, if that's what you intend to do then knock yourself out. There are some folks who utterly panic at the idea they might play the game "wrong"... you'll see that evident before any game comes out, with people wanting spoilers and other information to make sure they have the most "perfect" playthrough possible, and why not if that's what's important to you? We are just not going to help you do it.

This actually a good thing I think.

#124
Guest_simfamUP_*

Guest_simfamUP_*
  • Guests

xAmilli0n wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Meta-gaming is frowned upon because it's the exact opposite of role-playing.


I disagree.  One can easily role play a character, while still having specific goals for minor things (such as one's romance sub plot).  Because of the nature of the Friendship/Rivalry system, some meta gaming may be required.  I'm speaking from a strickly mechanics point of view.

Or maybe I'm a bit too lenient with my RPs lol.


Of course you can roleplay, but meta-gaming limits you to one character.

#125
Medhia Nox

Medhia Nox
  • Members
  • 5 066 messages
I don't meta-game - and I seriously frown on it at my gaming table while roleplaying - but for video games, go to town. It's a single player experience - and more akin to an advanced "Choose your own adventure." and not an RPG - so however you want to play it is the right way.