257 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
THEY DID NOT.

...What? Bring it down upon themselves? Oh... but they did.

No. They didn't. The tiny clique that actually knew about the beacon might not have helped, but the remainder of the trillions-strong asari population, including the ones on Thessia, had nothing to do with that and no knowledge of it whatsoever.

[DeinonSlayer]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I disagree with a few of these: I wholly support Shepard being angry at Joker after Thessia (and in fact I wanted an option to be angrier), and I even more support EDI chewing out Shepard after screwing up on Rannoch. I will, however, say that the entire prologue's dialogue was a huge pile of failure and I disregard the entire thing.

If there's one side of the coin, there needs to be another. I personally thought the joke was pretty good and wanted Shepard to go (more or less) "Yeah, pretty much. Also, it's thier fault for not telling people about that beacon. Oh well, time to get back to business." or just laugh and shake his head or something. But when one choice is to be angry, and the other is to be angry but different, that's BS. BioWare, I'm fine with being railroaded at times if you hide it well enough, but you did not hide it well there.

Shepard should have been able to be just as callous and dismissive of the Asari's plight as he is if you choose to kill the Quarians. As opposed to the cutscene fail on Thessia, the destruction of the Flotilla is something that actually happens as a direct consequence of Shepard's actions (after being warned exactly what would happen by both parties if that choice was made), but he doesn't get too broken up about it - he blames the Quarians for their own extinction (arguably, a certain admiral, not the species as a whole, is at fault there as well).

No such latitude for Thessia, though. When it's the Asari on the chopping block (having hidden the beacon and sat out the war until they came under attack themselves), suddenly Shepard assumes all responsibility for what happened there.

I'm not saying either position is right (blame the Matriarchs (again, a clique, not the Asari as a species), or assume personal responsiblity). I'm saying it should have been the player's choice. My Shepard, while sympathetic to the Asari, would NOT be apologizing to Tevos.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:10 .

[dgcatanisiri]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I briefly felt like pulping Joker's head against the control console. Barring that, I personally might have said something cutting about Tiptree after he got all snotty about it when I called him on his bulll****. But my Shepard didn't because she's a better person than I am. Either way, though, the lack of a dialogue to approve of Joker's single worst line in the series is never going to be something that I mourn.

All fine and dandy, but other Shepards might not be that way and instead want to knock down the Asari down another peg simply because they brought this upon themselves. When the series (until ME3) has been decently good at this, it's BS for it to be so sloppily done in the "big one".

THEY DID NOT.

How do you figure that? See, the beacon was on Thessia since the protheans went extinct. The asari got to the Citadel and then, here's the biggie - THEY put into place the penalties for withholding prothean technology, which led to their descendants keeping that secret. Then we jump to ME1. Shepard interacts with a beacon and cites having a vision of the protheans' destruction. This is public, brought up in the trial of Saren. Even if we want to say that Tevos didn't know about the beacon at all until ME3, she had to at some point have brought up to the Matriarchs Shepard's vision, and, especially since the implication is that Benezia was in on the secret as well, the fact that she was involved with Saren should have gotten the Matriarchs attention and made them go 'you know, we could confirm Shepard's vision, hook them up to this beacon that, hey, we just discovered was hidden underneath one of our most ancient temples, how 'bout that?' They didn't. And then, they wanted to stay out of the war, backing out of the cross-species summit before Sur'Kesh, and not offering a thing to the cause until they couldn't deny the Reapers were coming for them too.

As a whole, no, the asari didn't bring it on themselves. But their leaders sure as hell did, and I don't mourn them for a minute. Had they done something sooner, the entire course of the war, of the entire SERIES would be different.

Modifié par dgcatanisiri, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:09 .

[Xilizhra]

No such latitude for Thessia, though. When it's the Asari on the chopping block (having hidden the beacon and sat out the war until they came under attack themselves), suddenly Shepard assumes all responsibility for what happened there.

Again, only a tiny handful of individuals even knew about the beacon; the populace as a whole did not.

As a whole, no, the asari didn't bring it on themselves. But their leaders sure as hell did, and I don't mourn them for a minute.

I don't believe Tevos knew about the beacon until right before she told Shepard about it, personally. My guess is that they didn't want someone in the galactic public eye as much as a Councilor to know of it.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

spockjedi wrote...

STEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVEEE!!!
I'm alright.
You sure?

LMAOooo!

[Ticonderoga117]

Xilizhra wrote...
No. They didn't. The tiny clique that actually knew about the beacon might not have helped, but the remainder of the trillions-strong asari population, including the ones on Thessia, had nothing to do with that and no knowledge of it whatsoever.

Sure, the general population didn't, but sadly thier government did. They looked right at the threat and said "NOPE! Not going to happen." and they paid the price for thier hubris. It especially doesn't help when the Reapers show up and the Asari withhold vital information that is needed to finish this bloody device until the last second. If anything, Shepard should be pissed at the Asari Councilor and government for being total b****es and complete morons.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

No such latitude for Thessia, though. When it's the Asari on the chopping block (having hidden the beacon and sat out the war until they came under attack themselves), suddenly Shepard assumes all responsibility for what happened there.

Again, only a tiny handful of individuals even knew about the beacon; the populace as a whole did not.

Exactly. I'd have wanted the opportunity to direct Shepard's anger at the Matriarchs; not the crew.

[Xilizhra]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
No. They didn't. The tiny clique that actually knew about the beacon might not have helped, but the remainder of the trillions-strong asari population, including the ones on Thessia, had nothing to do with that and no knowledge of it whatsoever.

Sure, the general population didn't, but sadly thier government did. They looked right at the threat and said "NOPE! Not going to happen." and they paid the price for thier hubris. It especially doesn't help when the Reapers show up and the Asari withhold vital information that is needed to finish this bloody device until the last second. If anything, Shepard should be pissed at the Asari Councilor and government for being total b****es and complete morons.

All of them except Tevos are dead, and I don't think that she even knew about it until right before telling Shepard. It'd be completely pointless.

Note that I'm not saying necessarily that it'd be bad to have this dialogue option. I'm just saying that I'm not sorry that you don't, because I have a hard time being sympathetic to any Shepard who'd react this way.

Exactly. I'd have wanted the opportunity to direct Shepard's anger at the Matriarchs; not the crew.

Joker 100% deserved that, and probably more. Shepard doesn't get angry at anyone else.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[Nightwriter]

Well, an entire civilization had just died, and Joker made a joke about how they might have survived if they weren't such tramps. Even I thought it was kind of tasteless in such a sober moment, even knowing that Joker uses humor as a coping mechanism.

Can understand Joker wanting to do that. Can also understand Shepard getting angry about it. He was clearly not in a joking mood about that loss. And he considered Thessia a personal failure.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:14 .

[Xilizhra]

Nightwriter wrote...

Well, an entire civilization had just died, and Joker made a joke about how they might have survived if they weren't such tramps. Even I thought it was kind of tasteless in such a sober moment, even knowing that Joker uses humor as a coping mechanism.

Can understand Joker wanting to do that. Can also understand Shepard getting angry about it. He was clearly not in a joking mode about that loss. And he considered Thessia a personal failure.

Can you understand my possibly wanting to get an airlock involved? Even if only for a moment.

[Ticonderoga117]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No such latitude for Thessia, though. When it's the Asari on the chopping block (having hidden the beacon and sat out the war until they came under attack themselves), suddenly Shepard assumes all responsibility for what happened there.

Again, only a tiny handful of individuals even knew about the beacon; the populace as a whole did not.

Exactly. I'd have wanted the opportunity to direct Shepard's anger at the Matriarchs; not the crew.

Especially over a joke that has context. We see lots of Asari dancers and they could've used more commandos.

[Xilizhra]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No such latitude for Thessia, though. When it's the Asari on the chopping block (having hidden the beacon and sat out the war until they came under attack themselves), suddenly Shepard assumes all responsibility for what happened there.

Again, only a tiny handful of individuals even knew about the beacon; the populace as a whole did not.

Exactly. I'd have wanted the opportunity to direct Shepard's anger at the Matriarchs; not the crew.

Especially over a joke that has context. We see lots of Asari dancers and they could've used more commandos.

It's brutally inappropriate and were I a subordinate, I'd probably file a formal complaint over it assuming the situation was less dire.

[l7986]

We fight or we die. /thread

The whole talking with Tevos after Thessia scene, I just try to skip through it as fast as possible. Hate seeing Shepard standing there moping like a little ****, especially if he faked the Genophage and been just a total douche the whole game.

Modifié par l7986, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:19 .

[Nightwriter]

Xilizhra wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Well, an entire civilization had just died, and Joker made a joke about how they might have survived if they weren't such tramps. Even I thought it was kind of tasteless in such a sober moment, even knowing that Joker uses humor as a coping mechanism.

Can understand Joker wanting to do that. Can also understand Shepard getting angry about it. He was clearly not in a joking mode about that loss. And he considered Thessia a personal failure.

Can you understand my possibly wanting to get an airlock involved? Even if only for a moment.

Yeah, I can. Even though I know jokes were the only things he knew how to protect himself with, there are kind of some things you don't joke about, at least not when the wound is so fresh. Like the Holocaust. And the Rape of Nanking. And the deaths of billions of blue people and a millenia old culture.

A bit of rage is understandable.

[dgcatanisiri]

Nightwriter wrote...

Well, an entire civilization had just died, and Joker made a joke about how they might have survived if they weren't such tramps. Even I thought it was kind of tasteless in such a sober moment, even knowing that Joker uses humor as a coping mechanism.

Can understand Joker wanting to do that. Can also understand Shepard getting angry about it. He was clearly not in a joking mood about that loss. And he considered Thessia a personal failure.

Which is what the complaint here is about - WHAT, exactly, could Shepard have done, what made it his/her personal failure? The auto-dialogue makes it into that, into Shepard calling it their failure. Those of us who are complaining are saying that we don't understand WHY. I know that my Shepards are aware that they CAN'T look at the loss of planets as personal failures, because it's happening across the galaxy. At the same time Thessia's falling, Garrus is telling Victus to sound the retreat and give up Palaven. Dekunna is burning. The Reapers have had Earth in their tentacles for weeks now. Kar'Shan is probably nothing but rubble. One world, 'craddle of galactic civilization' or not, can NOT be one person's responsibility if it falls.

[Ticonderoga117]

Xilizhra wrote...
All of them except Tevos are dead, and I don't think that she even knew about it until right before telling Shepard. It'd be completely pointless.

Note that I'm not saying necessarily that it'd be bad to have this dialogue option. I'm just saying that I'm not sorry that you don't, because I have a hard time being sympathetic to any Shepard who'd react this way.

Well that whole first part is all speculation, but I can buy it. It works.

As for the last bit, I don't respect Shepards who shoot Mordin in the back, kill Legion (or the Quarians), shoot Wrex, or be a complete moron (Control/Synthesis) but they're there.

When the game really tries to hammer home that the Asari's plight is a major emotional event for Shepard (which baffles me, honestly), I want to rebel against it because this wasn't there for anyone else.

Earth, does Shepard bemoan the loss of thousands? Sorta, be he doesn't go overboard like after Thessia.
Palaven? Nope.
Tuchanka? Nope.
Rannoch (Geth/Quarians)? Nope.

So far as I know, the only two things Shepard REALLY cares for, according to ME3, is some random stupid kid, and the Asari. Both of those events were out of his control (kinda) and none of it is left to the player.

[Xilizhra]

Nightwriter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Well, an entire civilization had just died, and Joker made a joke about how they might have survived if they weren't such tramps. Even I thought it was kind of tasteless in such a sober moment, even knowing that Joker uses humor as a coping mechanism.

Can understand Joker wanting to do that. Can also understand Shepard getting angry about it. He was clearly not in a joking mode about that loss. And he considered Thessia a personal failure.

Can you understand my possibly wanting to get an airlock involved? Even if only for a moment.

Yeah, I can. Even though I know jokes were the only things he knew how to protect himself with, there are kind of some things you don't joke about, at least not when the wound is so fresh. Like the Holocaust. And the Rape of Nanking. And the deaths of billions of blue people and a millenia old culture.

A bit of rage is understandable.

Well... no, the culture isn't destroyed. Given how close it is to the end of the game, I might even be able to cut the death toll before it hits a billion, as Thessia's population is a bit sparse for a species capital. But yes, I agree with the rest.

Earth, does Shepard bemoan the loss of thousands? Sorta, be he doesn't go overboard like after Thessia.
Palaven? Nope.
Tuchanka? Nope.
Rannoch (Geth/Quarians)? Nope.

Shepard goes on about Earth for the whole game, Palaven never truly falls (and it's spread out over a much longer period of time), and Tuchanka and Rannoch are unadulterated triumphs.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:22 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No such latitude for Thessia, though. When it's the Asari on the chopping block (having hidden the beacon and sat out the war until they came under attack themselves), suddenly Shepard assumes all responsibility for what happened there.

Again, only a tiny handful of individuals even knew about the beacon; the populace as a whole did not.

Exactly. I'd have wanted the opportunity to direct Shepard's anger at the Matriarchs; not the crew.

Especially over a joke that has context. We see lots of Asari dancers and they could've used more commandos.

It's brutally inappropriate and were I a subordinate, I'd probably file a formal complaint over it assuming the situation was less dire.

I don't like Joker's joke either, but I can appreciate peoples' desire for more roleplaying freedom than "choose your flavor of butthurt." Shepard's personality was railroaded to a far greater extent than in the last two games. ME2-era Cerberus sympathizers must have been in for one hell of an upset... people who didn't want to roleplay as Alliance syncophants were certainly disappointed.

And as someone noted earlier, Earth is not "home" to a Shepard with a Spacer or Colonist background.

[Ticonderoga117]

Xilizhra wrote...
It's brutally inappropriate and were I a subordinate, I'd probably file a formal complaint over it assuming the situation was less dire.

Calling for less dancers and more commandos is HARDLY inappropriate in light of the stupidity of the Asari government.

[Xilizhra]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
It's brutally inappropriate and were I a subordinate, I'd probably file a formal complaint over it assuming the situation was less dire.

Calling for less dancers and more commandos is HARDLY inappropriate in light of the stupidity of the Asari government.

It certainly warranted a Renegade interrupt of some kind. I'm not sure what form it'd take, but I'd really, really enjoy one.

[Ticonderoga117]

Xilizhra wrote...
Shepard goes on about Earth for the whole game, Palaven never truly falls (and it's spread out over a much longer period of time), and Tuchanka and Rannoch are unadulterated triumphs.

He talks about it as a mission, but does he get pissy over jokes about it? No. Does he stare longingly at the QEC because Earth fell? No. He bucks up and goes out to give the Reapers one. Seeing Thessia falls makes even less sense for my Shepard to give two s**ts about.

And Rannoch is not always a triumph, if you can't manage peace.

Tuchanka, a really good friend died. Heroically sure, but still a great friend.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
It's brutally inappropriate and were I a subordinate, I'd probably file a formal complaint over it assuming the situation was less dire.

Calling for less dancers and more commandos is HARDLY inappropriate in light of the stupidity of the Asari government.

It certainly warranted a Renegade interrupt of some kind. I'm not sure what form it'd take, but I'd really, really enjoy one.

Smack the back of his head... pilot with a fractured skull. Can't fly into the final batte. Best Critical Mission Failure EVER.

[Ticonderoga117]

Xilizhra wrote...
It certainly warranted a Renegade interrupt of some kind. I'm not sure what form it'd take, but I'd really, really enjoy one.

I think you'd mean paragon depending on context. I would see a paragon interrupt being really antsy about the joke.
Renegade I see as laughing with it.

It depends on the action.

[Nightwriter]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well... no, the culture isn't destroyed. Given how close it is to the end of the game, I might even be able to cut the death toll before it hits a billion, as Thessia's population is a bit sparse for a species capital. But yes, I agree with the rest.

Thessia falling is kind of like Earth falling. We're aware that our culture extends beyond Earth, but it doesn't change the fact that a staggeringly enormous amount of that culture resides on the home planet. The Louvre is there, Stonehenge is there, sites of great deeds, museums full of priceless objects and human ingenuity. It's the storehouse for an enormous amount of cultural identity. The asari had much more time to spread out than we did, but losing the homeworld is still a heavy loss.

[Xilizhra]

He talks about it as a mission, but does he get pissy over jokes about it? No. Does he stare longingly at the QEC because Earth fell? No. He bucks up and goes out to give the Reapers one. Seeing Thessia falls makes even less sense for my Shepard to give two s**ts about.

And Shepard is upset about Thessia for a grand total of one intermission. Beyond that, nothing. You're complaining about a tiny sliver of time.

And Rannoch is not always a triumph, if you can't manage peace.

True; that is very largely Shepard's own fault if it goes bad.

Tuchanka, a really good friend died. Heroically sure, but still a great friend.

One<millions.

Smack the back of his head... pilot with a fractured skull. Can't fly into the final batte. Best Critical Mission Failure EVER.

A threat to do so might suffice.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:29 .