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[Xilizhra]

Nightwriter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well... no, the culture isn't destroyed. Given how close it is to the end of the game, I might even be able to cut the death toll before it hits a billion, as Thessia's population is a bit sparse for a species capital. But yes, I agree with the rest.

Thessia falling is kind of like Earth falling. We're aware that our culture extends beyond Earth, but it doesn't change the fact that a staggeringly enormous amount of that culture resides on the home planet. The Louvre is there, Stonehenge is there, sites of great deeds, museums full of priceless objects and human ingenuity. It's the storehouse for an enormous amount of cultural identity. The asari had much more time to spread out than we did, but losing the homeworld is still a heavy loss.

Granted. I try to retain more optimism about this than the game does (which frequently pisses me off at this section, to be honest), because the Reapers have so little time to actually occupy Thessia.

I think you'd mean paragon depending on context. I would see a paragon interrupt being really antsy about the joke.
Renegade I see as laughing with it.

It depends on the action.

Paragon interrupts only tend to be angry when directed at external enemies; as of now, I'm thinking of the "nobody messes with my girl" one with Aethyta for Renegade.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:30 .

[Nightwriter]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Well, an entire civilization had just died, and Joker made a joke about how they might have survived if they weren't such tramps. Even I thought it was kind of tasteless in such a sober moment, even knowing that Joker uses humor as a coping mechanism.

Can understand Joker wanting to do that. Can also understand Shepard getting angry about it. He was clearly not in a joking mood about that loss. And he considered Thessia a personal failure.

Which is what the complaint here is about - WHAT, exactly, could Shepard have done, what made it his/her personal failure? The auto-dialogue makes it into that, into Shepard calling it their failure. Those of us who are complaining are saying that we don't understand WHY. I know that my Shepards are aware that they CAN'T look at the loss of planets as personal failures, because it's happening across the galaxy. At the same time Thessia's falling, Garrus is telling Victus to sound the retreat and give up Palaven. Dekunna is burning. The Reapers have had Earth in their tentacles for weeks now. Kar'Shan is probably nothing but rubble. One world, 'craddle of galactic civilization' or not, can NOT be one person's responsibility if it falls.

Oh. I thought we were talking about Shepard getting angry at Joker's tasteless humor.

I vaguely recall Shepard feeling like he'd gotten one-upped by Cerberus on Thessia, and that he should've seen it coming and prevented it.

[l7986]

Oh another one, The whole pick me up talk that Shepard gives Liara in her cabin after Thessia. Oh how I just wanted to shake the hell out of Liara and tell her that Thessia is lucky that it lasted this long with out getting Reaped.

[Xilizhra]

l7986 wrote...

Oh another one, The whole pick me up talk that Shepard gives Liara in her cabin after Thessia. Oh how I just wanted to shake the hell out of Liara and tell her that Thessia is lucky that it lasted this long with out getting Reaped.

This thread is making me steadily more appreciative of ME3's autodialogue. Way too many titanic jerks around to give satisfaction to.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think you'd mean paragon depending on context. I would see a paragon interrupt being really antsy about the joke.
Renegade I see as laughing with it.

It depends on the action.

Paragon interrupts only tend to be angry when directed at external enemies; as of now, I'm thinking of the "nobody messes with my girl" one with Aethyta for Renegade.

There's a paragon interrupt that makes you pistol-whip Gavin Archer in the Overlord DLC. :innocent:

[Xilizhra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think you'd mean paragon depending on context. I would see a paragon interrupt being really antsy about the joke.
Renegade I see as laughing with it.

It depends on the action.

Paragon interrupts only tend to be angry when directed at external enemies; as of now, I'm thinking of the "nobody messes with my girl" one with Aethyta for Renegade.

There's a paragon interrupt that makes you pistol-whip Gavin Archer in the Overlord DLC. :innocent:

Well, he is an external enemy.

[DrAbysmal]

Shepard's dialog during the prologue is horrendous. Especially when you consider that Shepard has avoided being prosecuted because he knows more about the Reapers than anybody. Then when the time finally comes and the Alliance is willing to listen, the best he can do is WE FIGHT OR WE DIE. Even one of the councilor guys just says "That's it?"

[clennon8]

"So, the Illusive Man was right?"

[Applepie_Svk]

Legion´s mumbling about how geths need Reaper upgrades ... pretty much downhill

and Joker´s stupid joke after Thesia, I would throw him out of airlock if there was an option

and Shepard´s mumbling about ... So will they obey me ? when just ... 5 minutes ago he said TIM to screw

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:38 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Xilizhra wrote...
And Shepard is upset about Thessia for a grand total of one intermission. Beyond that, nothing. You're complaining about a tiny sliver of time.

But the game really drives it home. Shepard's attitude really diverts from the "norm" here. It's just odd.

True; that is very largely Shepard's own fault if it goes bad.

Exactly. I can see Shepard being really torn over this. It was his active decision that led to pretty much an entire species to be sentenced to extinction, unlike Thessia where it was Asari Government and Cerberus doing that. Shepard's only fault that was not seeing the future (and somehow not killing KL with Black Widow shots repeatedly to the face but that's something different entirely).

One<millions.

True, however, if I told you a million people in Europe died because of a war, while one of your best friends died in the same war, what would effect you most? For me, it would be my friend, because I actually knew him. I realize that the million deaths are "more tragic" because of the scale, but I have no connection to them. Don't know them. Can't sympathize. My friend though, very personal, easy to sympathize.

[Xilizhra]

But the game really drives it home. Shepard's attitude really diverts from the "norm" here. It's just odd.

They tried to have Shepard briefly stop being a brick. Clearly the ME team isn't very practiced with it.

True, however, if I told you a million people in Europe died because of a war, while one of your best friends died in the same war, what would effect you most? For me, it would be my friend, because I actually knew him. I realize that the million deaths are "more tragic" because of the scale, but I have no connection to them. Don't know them. Can't sympathize. My friend though, very personal, easy to sympathize.

Well, if it was my screwup that ensured that the millions of people in Europe would die, those who didn't want any part of that war while my friend chose to be on its front line and die saving a whole species... personal sympathy wouldn't be the deciding factor.

[dgcatanisiri]

Xilizhra wrote...

l7986 wrote...

Oh another one, The whole pick me up talk that Shepard gives Liara in her cabin after Thessia. Oh how I just wanted to shake the hell out of Liara and tell her that Thessia is lucky that it lasted this long with out getting Reaped.

This thread is making me steadily more appreciative of ME3's autodialogue. Way too many titanic jerks around to give satisfaction to.

See, I would like that option too, though I know it would be on the Renegade side, because of the fact that she is on a human ship - Earth had fallen weeks ago at this point, and after Thessia's fall, she's in her quarters, moping about it, and NOW she's wondering what she could have done differently. I admit her attitude is in character, but a Renegade Shepard wouldn't be trying to give her a pep talk. Renegade Shepard would be telling her 'suck it up, you're not the first person on this ship to lose their homeworld, in fact, you're pretty much the last, and you don't see any of the rest of us in our rooms whining about it.'

It's like how you want to smack Joker for being callous about the fall of a world. Some people want to smack Liara for acting like her world is the first to fall to the Reapers when it's just the latest. I have one Renegon Shepard who would have taken that option without a thought, though pretty much the rest would try to help her feel better. The complaint is in the fact that the auto-dialogue takes away the ability for us to role play as the characters we built over the last two games.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

l7986 wrote...

Oh another one, The whole pick me up talk that Shepard gives Liara in her cabin after Thessia. Oh how I just wanted to shake the hell out of Liara and tell her that Thessia is lucky that it lasted this long with out getting Reaped.

This thread is making me steadily more appreciative of ME3's autodialogue. Way too many titanic jerks around to give satisfaction to.

People hold opposing opinions. That doesn't make one party or the other "titanic jerks," people simply react to a given situation in different ways, and want the roleplaying latitude to express their viewpoint in-game. I can support an option being there (ex: Cortez romance), even if it's one I'd never choose.

[EnvyTB075]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

and Joker´s stupid joke after Thesia, I would throw him out of airlock if there was an option

Actually i thought Shepards responses were ****** poor along with Jokers response. I mean you have your LI on hand (Garrus for me) and apparently Joker is the one keeping Shepard emotionally stable? What?

And what about a Shepard who doesn't really care for Asari and actually kind of agreed with Joker and didn't take Thessia personally? If this were ME1/1, i'd have a "lol, you so funny" option, a "maybe, but don't say that to anyone else" and a "you're such an **** you know" option.

Instead you have the option to either get mad, or get mad.

[Xilizhra]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

l7986 wrote...

Oh another one, The whole pick me up talk that Shepard gives Liara in her cabin after Thessia. Oh how I just wanted to shake the hell out of Liara and tell her that Thessia is lucky that it lasted this long with out getting Reaped.

This thread is making me steadily more appreciative of ME3's autodialogue. Way too many titanic jerks around to give satisfaction to.

See, I would like that option too, though I know it would be on the Renegade side, because of the fact that she is on a human ship - Earth had fallen weeks ago at this point, and after Thessia's fall, she's in her quarters, moping about it, and NOW she's wondering what she could have done differently. I admit her attitude is in character, but a Renegade Shepard wouldn't be trying to give her a pep talk. Renegade Shepard would be telling her 'suck it up, you're not the first person on this ship to lose their homeworld, in fact, you're pretty much the last, and you don't see any of the rest of us in our rooms whining about it.'

It's like how you want to smack Joker for being callous about the fall of a world. Some people want to smack Liara for acting like her world is the first to fall to the Reapers when it's just the latest. I have one Renegon Shepard who would have taken that option without a thought, though pretty much the rest would try to help her feel better. The complaint is in the fact that the auto-dialogue takes away the ability for us to role play as the characters we built over the last two games.

You can cut my complete lack of sympathy with a knife, I fear. Perhaps I'd feel differently if your Shepard wasn't wanting to screw over the one closest to me, but, well, I suppose there it is. Perhaps I'm sorry for not being sorry.

[Ticonderoga117]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, if it was my screwup that ensured that the millions of people in Europe would die, those who didn't want any part of that war while my friend chose to be on its front line and die saving a whole species... personal sympathy wouldn't be the deciding factor.

This. Shepard had no dealing what-so-ever about the Fall of Thessia. There was no dire decision about pulling forces that were vital to make his way there. Shepard wasn't there to actually keep Thessia from falling. Shepard didn't screwup. He just got beat by a cutscene. Again, the Asari government are more to blame for the fall and Shepard KNOWS this.

Now, if somehow Shepard directly led to Thessia falling on a gamble, then sure. I can completely buy and agree with that line of thought. The game, however, doesn't do that.

[Nightwriter]

l7986 wrote...

Oh another one, The whole pick me up talk that Shepard gives Liara in her cabin after Thessia. Oh how I just wanted to shake the hell out of Liara and tell her that Thessia is lucky that it lasted this long with out getting Reaped.

Srsly, this makes me think that people who scoffed at the reaction to Thessia just straight up hated the asari and that's where this distaste is coming from. How does the fact that the whole galaxy is in danger make you any less upset at what looks to you like the destruction of your entire race?

[Xilizhra]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, if it was my screwup that ensured that the millions of people in Europe would die, those who didn't want any part of that war while my friend chose to be on its front line and die saving a whole species... personal sympathy wouldn't be the deciding factor.

This. Shepard had no dealing what-so-ever about the Fall of Thessia. There was no dire decision about pulling forces that were vital to make his way there. Shepard wasn't there to actually keep Thessia from falling. Shepard didn't screwup. He just got beat by a cutscene. Again, the Asari government are more to blame for the fall and Shepard KNOWS this.

Now, if somehow Shepard directly led to Thessia falling on a gamble, then sure. I can completely buy and agree with that line of thought. The game, however, doesn't do that.

Well, it's possible that, after having blown up three or four gunships in ME2, that Shepard was feeling bad about being unable to take one out purely because it had a freaking floodlight attached to it. I certainly would be. Thessia would still be hit by the Reapers, but the mission wouldn't have been a waste of time.

Srsly, this makes me think that people who scoffed at the reaction to
Thessia just straight up hated the asari and that's where this distaste
is coming from. How does the fact that the whole galaxy is in danger
make you any less upset at what looks to you like the destruction of
your entire race?

Who can say "latent sexism/disdain for femininity being fired off at a safe target?"

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:48 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...

See, I would like that option too, though I know it would be on the Renegade side, because of the fact that she is on a human ship - Earth had fallen weeks ago at this point, and after Thessia's fall, she's in her quarters, moping about it, and NOW she's wondering what she could have done differently. I admit her attitude is in character, but a Renegade Shepard wouldn't be trying to give her a pep talk. Renegade Shepard would be telling her 'suck it up, you're not the first person on this ship to lose their homeworld, in fact, you're pretty much the last, and you don't see any of the rest of us in our rooms whining about it.'

It's like how you want to smack Joker for being callous about the fall of a world. Some people want to smack Liara for acting like her world is the first to fall to the Reapers when it's just the latest. I have one Renegon Shepard who would have taken that option without a thought, though pretty much the rest would try to help her feel better. The complaint is in the fact that the auto-dialogue takes away the ability for us to role play as the characters we built over the last two games.

You can cut my complete lack of sympathy with a knife, I fear. Perhaps I'd feel differently if your Shepard wasn't wanting to screw over the one closest to me, but, well, I suppose there it is. Perhaps I'm sorry for not being sorry.

That's the problem. We get tunnel vision, and can't wrap our heads around the idea that other people (and by extension, the Shepards they pilot) view things differently.

We can chew out James Vega for being initially reluctant about leaving Earth ("STOW it, Lieutenant! You're angry - we get that - but this isn't a democracy!"). I'm glad we had the option - it's in character for my paragade Shepard. We should have had the OPTION to react similarly to Liara's similar behavior after Thessia - even if it's one you wouldn't have taken, I'd think it would say more about your Shepard that you didn't take it.

[dgcatanisiri]

Xilizhra wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

l7986 wrote...

Oh another one, The whole pick me up talk that Shepard gives Liara in her cabin after Thessia. Oh how I just wanted to shake the hell out of Liara and tell her that Thessia is lucky that it lasted this long with out getting Reaped.

This thread is making me steadily more appreciative of ME3's autodialogue. Way too many titanic jerks around to give satisfaction to.

See, I would like that option too, though I know it would be on the Renegade side, because of the fact that she is on a human ship - Earth had fallen weeks ago at this point, and after Thessia's fall, she's in her quarters, moping about it, and NOW she's wondering what she could have done differently. I admit her attitude is in character, but a Renegade Shepard wouldn't be trying to give her a pep talk. Renegade Shepard would be telling her 'suck it up, you're not the first person on this ship to lose their homeworld, in fact, you're pretty much the last, and you don't see any of the rest of us in our rooms whining about it.'

It's like how you want to smack Joker for being callous about the fall of a world. Some people want to smack Liara for acting like her world is the first to fall to the Reapers when it's just the latest. I have one Renegon Shepard who would have taken that option without a thought, though pretty much the rest would try to help her feel better. The complaint is in the fact that the auto-dialogue takes away the ability for us to role play as the characters we built over the last two games.

You can cut my complete lack of sympathy with a knife, I fear. Perhaps I'd feel differently if your Shepard wasn't wanting to screw over the one closest to me, but, well, I suppose there it is. Perhaps I'm sorry for not being sorry.

And you know what? I support your right to feel that way. MY Shepards, however, do not see Liara as the one closest to them. I'm not even saying that I would without question take these options if presented. HOWEVER, the point I'm getting at is that the option is NOT presented when it was in previous games, which is why the auto-dialogue and forced emotion stings so much for some of us. Shepard's reaction to the fall of Thessia is 'it's all on me' or 'it's all on me.' The options to react at Joker's comment are 'get mad' or 'get mad.' The way to respond to Liara is 'I'm sorry about your world' or 'I'm sorry about your world.' They're the same content packaged in different words. Dialogue choices in the previous two games allowed for differing content depending on the choice. That's where I get upset.

[Xilizhra]

We can chew out James Vega for being initially reluctant about leaving Earth ("STOW it, Lieutenant! You're angry - we get that - but this isn't a democracy!"). I'm glad we had the option - it's in character for my paragade Shepard. We should have had the OPTION to react similarly to Liara's similar behavior after Thessia - even if it's one you wouldn't have taken, I'd think it would say more about your Shepard that you didn't take it.

I think taking the Paragon interrupt there was sufficiently defining for my Shepard. I also think that even a Renegade Shepard would want Liara to actually be somewhat functional instead of just bullying a defenseless target.

[Ticonderoga117]

Nightwriter wrote...
Srsly, this makes me think that people who scoffed at the reaction to Thessia just straight up hated the asari and that's where this distaste is coming from. How does the fact that the whole galaxy is in danger make you any less upset at what looks to you like the destruction of your entire race?

For me, it's more along the lines of:

Liara, my species' home planet has been under Reaper control for weeks now with billions dead. During this time, your government was dismissive of the problem at hand and only at the 11th hour coughed up what we needed when thier home planet was on the burner. Palavenhas been a meat-grinder for the Turians, Krogan, and Quarians. This is nothing new Liara, now buck up and we can curtail the casualities that will be brought about from thie farce.

Granted, that's just me.

[Xilizhra]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Srsly, this makes me think that people who scoffed at the reaction to Thessia just straight up hated the asari and that's where this distaste is coming from. How does the fact that the whole galaxy is in danger make you any less upset at what looks to you like the destruction of your entire race?

For me, it's more along the lines of:

Liara, my species' home planet has been under Reaper control for weeks now with billions dead. During this time, your government was dismissive of the problem at hand and only at the 11th hour coughed up what we needed when thier home planet was on the burner. Palavenhas been a meat-grinder for the Turians, Krogan, and Quarians. This is nothing new Liara, now buck up and we can curtail the casualities that will be brought about from thie farce.

Granted, that's just me.

Nope, that's still horrible, and strongly speaks of at the very least considering the asari irrelevant, especially with the slam on the government. Your Shepard can go cram his head up an engine intake.

[DeinonSlayer]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

And you know what? I support your right to feel that way. MY Shepards, however, do not see Liara as the one closest to them. I'm not even saying that I would without question take these options if presented. HOWEVER, the point I'm getting at is that the option is NOT presented when it was in previous games, which is why the auto-dialogue and forced emotion stings so much for some of us. Shepard's reaction to the fall of Thessia is 'it's all on me' or 'it's all on me.' The options to react at Joker's comment are 'get mad' or 'get mad.' The way to respond to Liara is 'I'm sorry about your world' or 'I'm sorry about your world.' They're the same content packaged in different words. Dialogue choices in the previous two games allowed for differing content depending on the choice. That's where I get upset.

This. Just because person X likes how autodialogue treated situation Y does not mean everyone else did. Options are almost always better.

[Applepie_Svk]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

and Joker´s stupid joke after Thesia, I would throw him out of airlock if there was an option

Actually i thought Shepards responses were ****** poor along with Jokers response. I mean you have your LI on hand (Garrus for me) and apparently Joker is the one keeping Shepard emotionally stable? What?

And what about a Shepard who doesn't really care for Asari and actually kind of agreed with Joker and didn't take Thessia personally? If this were ME1/1, i'd have a "lol, you so funny" option, a "maybe, but don't say that to anyone else" and a "you're such an **** you know" option.

Instead you have the option to either get mad, or get mad.

After paragon path in conversation I was just... what ? It was like, yeah you are joking about genocide - fine as long you taking care of my psyche... wtf