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[Xilizhra]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

and Joker´s stupid joke after Thesia, I would throw him out of airlock if there was an option

Actually i thought Shepards responses were ****** poor along with Jokers response. I mean you have your LI on hand (Garrus for me) and apparently Joker is the one keeping Shepard emotionally stable? What?

And what about a Shepard who doesn't really care for Asari and actually kind of agreed with Joker and didn't take Thessia personally? If this were ME1/1, i'd have a "lol, you so funny" option, a "maybe, but don't say that to anyone else" and a "you're such an **** you know" option.

Instead you have the option to either get mad, or get mad.

After paragon path in conversation I was just... what ? It was like, yeah you are joking about genocide - fine as long you taking care of my psyche... wtf

True... while you can get mad, you can't stay mad. That bugged me a bit too.

[Seboist]

My favorite bit of auto-dialogue is when Renegade Shepard condemns sanctuary when he's doing the mission but then has the option to support it in a convo with Joker afterwards.

[Ticonderoga117]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, it's possible that, after having blown up three or four gunships in ME2, that Shepard was feeling bad about being unable to take one out purely because it had a freaking floodlight attached to it. I certainly would be. Thessia would still be hit by the Reapers, but the mission wouldn't have been a waste of time.

All true, but this is part of gameplay/story segregation, because the plot required KL to get the device and the creators didn't align the gameplay experiance (Us kicking KL's behind) with the story experiance (KL giving us a plate of fail).

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

We can chew out James Vega for being initially reluctant about leaving Earth ("STOW it, Lieutenant! You're angry - we get that - but this isn't a democracy!"). I'm glad we had the option - it's in character for my paragade Shepard. We should have had the OPTION to react similarly to Liara's similar behavior after Thessia - even if it's one you wouldn't have taken, I'd think it would say more about your Shepard that you didn't take it.

I think taking the Paragon interrupt there was sufficiently defining for my Shepard.

Then congratulations are in order for the writers there; they put in diverging options that managed to satisfy both of us.

EDIT: You were talking about Vega right? If not, re: Liara, my canon took the Paragon interrupt, too. Thessia was not the fault of anyone on the Normandy. Which is why it pisses me off that AutoShep blames himself for it. Still would have liked the option, though.

Xilizhra wrote...

I also think that even a Renegade Shepard would want Liara to actually be somewhat functional instead of just bullying a defenseless target.

Paragon Shepard can screw this up by missing the interrupt and choosing the paragon dialogue option that follows. She just buries her head in the pillow and cries instead of going back to work. Renegade Shepard should be afforded the same opportunity.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 novembre 2012 - 07:00 .

[Xilizhra]

Paragon Shepard can screw this up by missing the interrupt and choosing the paragon dialogue option that follows. She just buries her head in the pillow and cries instead of going back to work. Renegade Shepard should be afforded the same opportunity.

And that could be done with something like "Don't be sad, be angry; harness your rage and channel it into striking back and ultimately obliterating the Reapers; let the memories of the fallen be what spurs you to victory," or something negatively inspirational along those lines. But it has to acknowledge the badness of what happened on Thessia; trying to downplay it should only ever lead to the "crying-into-the-pillow" response.

EDIT: You were talking about Vega right? If not, re: Liara, my canon
took the Paragon interrupt, too. Thessia was not the fault of anyone on
the Normandy. Which is why it pisses me off that AutoShep blames himself
for it. Still would have liked the option, though.

I took both Paragon interrupts.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 novembre 2012 - 07:01 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Xilizhra wrote...
Nope, that's still horrible, and strongly speaks of at the very least considering the asari irrelevant, especially with the slam on the government. Your Shepard can go cram his head up an engine intake.

It's not making the Asari irrelevant, it's showing that other species are going through the same thing while the Asari sat on thier behind not really being bothered until the Reapers showed up on thier doorstep. A bit harsh? Maybe.

And the slam on thier government is perfectly fine because they did get themselves, and every other Asari, into this jam and any of them still alive deserve to have thier heads crammed up an enginer intake and the engine then turned on.

[Xilizhra]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Nope, that's still horrible, and strongly speaks of at the very least considering the asari irrelevant, especially with the slam on the government. Your Shepard can go cram his head up an engine intake.

It's not making the Asari irrelevant, it's showing that other species are going through the same thing while the Asari sat on thier behind not really being bothered until the Reapers showed up on thier doorstep. A bit harsh? Maybe.

And the slam on thier government is perfectly fine because they did get themselves, and every other Asari, into this jam and any of them still alive deserve to have thier heads crammed up an enginer intake and the engine then turned on.

They're all dead. Also, note that it was only the highest levels of the government who knew about the beacon, not the entire government. And the harshness is wholly inappropriate and unnecessary. Not to mention the fact that the asari are hardly unique; the salarians, raloi, and until very recently the quarians were doing rather similar things. And the humans haven't been helping much apart from themselves.

[Nightwriter]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Srsly, this makes me think that people who scoffed at the reaction to Thessia just straight up hated the asari and that's where this distaste is coming from. How does the fact that the whole galaxy is in danger make you any less upset at what looks to you like the destruction of your entire race?

For me, it's more along the lines of:

Liara, my species' home planet has been under Reaper control for weeks now with billions dead. During this time, your government was dismissive of the problem at hand and only at the 11th hour coughed up what we needed when thier home planet was on the burner. Palavenhas been a meat-grinder for the Turians, Krogan, and Quarians. This is nothing new Liara, now buck up and we can curtail the casualities that will be brought about from thie farce.

Granted, that's just me.

1. When I played the game, it seemed like the fall of Thessia was presented as far more final than the siege of Earth. As in, Earth was still fighting, Anderson was still kicking, but Thessia was dead. Just straight up dead. No bouncing back within anyone's lifetimes. The survival of the asari now rested on the shoulders of those on other colonies.

2. Liara isn't responsible for the actions of her government anymore than Shepard is responsible for the actions of the Alliance, so I don't get why anyone should want to shake her while she's grieving.

[dgcatanisiri]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Nope, that's still horrible, and strongly speaks of at the very least considering the asari irrelevant, especially with the slam on the government. Your Shepard can go cram his head up an engine intake.

It's not making the Asari irrelevant, it's showing that other species are going through the same thing while the Asari sat on thier behind not really being bothered until the Reapers showed up on thier doorstep. A bit harsh? Maybe.

And the slam on thier government is perfectly fine because they did get themselves, and every other Asari, into this jam and any of them still alive deserve to have thier heads crammed up an enginer intake and the engine then turned on.

They're all dead. Also, note that it was only the highest levels of the government who knew about the beacon, not the entire government. And the harshness is wholly inappropriate and unnecessary. Not to mention the fact that the asari are hardly unique; the salarians, raloi, and until very recently the quarians were doing rather similar things. And the humans haven't been helping much apart from themselves.

But we can get mad at them - We can scoff at the committee before they get killed. We can tell the dalatrass 'suck it up, we're getting the female, we're curing the genophage.' We can punch Admiral Gerrel and give Xen our best 'you want some of this, too?' glare. We can't do jack about the raloi, but they don't appear in game anyway. We can get mad and talk back and **** about the other leaders - but NOT the asari. The fall of Thessia becomes SOLELY Shepard's responsibility in game, when it's NOT. SHEPARD'S. FAULT. No one argues Shepard taking the responsibility on him/herself or offers the idea that it was a doomed situation from the start.

[blackcadillac117]

When Liara goes "Shepard, it's been years since we've been together!" Even though I rekindled our relationship in Lair of the Shadow Broker....

[Xilizhra]

1. When I played the game, it seemed like the fall of Thessia was presented as far more final than the siege of Earth. As in, Earth was still fighting, Anderson was still kicking, but Thessia was dead. Just straight up dead. No bouncing back within anyone's lifetimes. The survival of the asari now rested on the shoulders of those on other colonies.

I will admit that the presentation of this is stupid, because there's no reason to suspect that Thessia's fall was any more final than Earth's, from any objection whatsoever. So much of this came across as annoyingly heavy-handed and presenting the asari as pure victims, which wasn't great either.

2. Liara isn't responsible for the actions of her government anymore than Shepard is responsible for the actions of the Alliance, so I don't get why anyone should want to shake her while she's grieving.

See prior comment about titanic jerks.

But we can get mad at them - We can scoff at the committee before they get killed. We can tell the dalatrass 'suck it up, we're getting the female, we're curing the genophage.' We can punch Admiral Gerrel and give Xen our best 'you want some of this, too?' glare. We can't do jack about the raloi, but they don't appear in game anyway. We can get mad and talk back and **** about the other leaders - but NOT the asari. The fall of Thessia becomes SOLELY Shepard's responsibility in game, when it's NOT. SHEPARD'S. FAULT. No one argues Shepard taking the responsibility on him/herself or offers the idea that it was a doomed situation from the start.

But... Shepard completely drops the ball when fighting Kai Leng. That was Shepard's fault, and it made the whole Thessia situation a waste of time. Shepard's failure was letting Vendetta slip away, not the fall of Thessia per se.

[Foolsfolly]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

The bit where Shepard demands the Council sends their fleets to Earth even though their own worlds are about to be attacked by Reapers. Shepard has spent far too long dealing with the council to think they'd go for that. He should at least have tried to phrase the request in terms of strategy.

Also, at one point the quarians compare the situation with Rannoch to the situation on Earth. Letting that dialogue go without pointing out that Shepard considers his home to be a series of spaceships and that the only reason Earth is important is that there are a lot of humans there felt incredibly out of character. Actually, there aren't enough "What exactly is wrong with living in space?" moments altogether. You'd think Spacer Shepard would have something to say about the situation, but nope.

Poor Septimus. Haven't you figured it out yet? No one in the ME games are capable of reason or diplomacy. Everyone screams what they want until someone dies.

[Ticonderoga117]

Xilizhra wrote...
They're all dead. Also, note that it was only the highest levels of the government who knew about the beacon, not the entire government. And the harshness is wholly inappropriate and unnecessary. Not to mention the fact that the asari are hardly unique; the salarians, raloi, and until very recently the quarians were doing rather similar things. And the humans haven't been helping much apart from themselves.

The harshness is wholly appropraite and neccesary to those who were involved in hiding the beacon. If they didn't hide the beacon, and the VI inside said beacon, the Reaper threat would've been VERY minimal and most of the deaths in ME3 would be completely avoided.

If I could chew out the Salarians (And I would so love to against the Dalatrass) I would. The raloi are rather minor so I can't comment and I did chew out the Quarians for wasting resources on fighting the Geth and not the Reapers.

And honestly, do we want the human fleet to "help"? They lost an entire fleet for no reason at all. Plus, Earth kinda got crushed  next out of the gate. What does the WA screen give us? Three fleets at half strength and a single Marine division? Though I would've loed to have brought some ships to help.

[DeinonSlayer]

blackcadillac117 wrote...

When Liara goes "Shepard, it's been years since we've been together!" Even though I rekindled our relationship in Lair of the Shadow Broker....

I thought they fixed that?

I've never romanced Liara myself (and have zero interest in ever doing so), but I'd think a glitch like that would stick out...

[Foolsfolly]

Xilizhra wrote...

1. When I played the game, it seemed like the fall of Thessia was presented as far more final than the siege of Earth. As in, Earth was still fighting, Anderson was still kicking, but Thessia was dead. Just straight up dead. No bouncing back within anyone's lifetimes. The survival of the asari now rested on the shoulders of those on other colonies.

I will admit that the presentation of this is stupid, because there's no reason to suspect that Thessia's fall was any more final than Earth's, from any objection whatsoever. So much of this came across as annoyingly heavy-handed and presenting the asari as pure victims, which wasn't great either.
.

Presenting the only all-female race as weak victims too busy being strippers than taking care of their own planet backfired on the plot? Who could have thought fans wouldn't feel teary eyed at this?

....I just realized asari, humans, and quarians are the only races with females in these games....

[Ticonderoga117]

Nightwriter wrote...
1. When I played the game, it seemed like the fall of Thessia was presented as far more final than the siege of Earth. As in, Earth was still fighting, Anderson was still kicking, but Thessia was dead. Just straight up dead. No bouncing back within anyone's lifetimes. The survival of the asari now rested on the shoulders of those on other colonies.

2. Liara isn't responsible for the actions of her government anymore than Shepard is responsible for the actions of the Alliance, so I don't get why anyone should want to shake her while she's grieving.

1. Yeah, that's odd. Granted the sotry after this point goes downhill anyway so perhaps we just don't hear about it.

2. Never said she was and not in the group about shaking. Just wanted to say "Yes, it sucks, but this has been happening elsewhere and we need to keep it together to save anyone. Plus, those few who hid the beacon are responsible for Thessia's problems, not you Liara."

[Nightwriter]

Xilizhra wrote...

Srsly, this makes me think that people who scoffed at the reaction to
Thessia just straight up hated the asari and that's where this distaste
is coming from. How does the fact that the whole galaxy is in danger
make you any less upset at what looks to you like the destruction of
your entire race?

Who can say "latent sexism/disdain for femininity being fired off at a safe target?"

I don't think people dislike the asari because of sexism or anti-feminism. They probably dislike the asari because they regard them as a Mary Sue race, or sex fanservice, or the writer's pet race, or a mix of all three. I doubt people would feel the same way about an all female race that looked exactly like the elcor, for instance. It isn't gender.

All the same, I've never disliked the asari, or understood the hate. Only time I even came close to it was when I saw Liara's love scene and compared it to the one I got, and that was just an irrational surge of envy and despair that hit me while I was doing this.

[dgcatanisiri]

Xilizhra wrote...

But we can get mad at them - We can scoff at the committee before they get killed. We can tell the dalatrass 'suck it up, we're getting the female, we're curing the genophage.' We can punch Admiral Gerrel and give Xen our best 'you want some of this, too?' glare. We can't do jack about the raloi, but they don't appear in game anyway. We can get mad and talk back and **** about the other leaders - but NOT the asari. The fall of Thessia becomes SOLELY Shepard's responsibility in game, when it's NOT. SHEPARD'S. FAULT. No one argues Shepard taking the responsibility on him/herself or offers the idea that it was a doomed situation from the start.

But... Shepard completely drops the ball when fighting Kai Leng. That was Shepard's fault, and it made the whole Thessia situation a waste of time. Shepard's failure was letting Vendetta slip away, not the fall of Thessia per se.

But that's my point - Shepard is taking the fall of Thessia as their responsibility. That's what the dialogue is all saying - 'Thessia's fallen, and that's on me.' I'm pretty sure that's a direct quote. No, Thessia fell the moment that the Reapers started landing en masse, which was well before Shepard arrived. The capture of the data, Shepard can take as a failing, sure, even though Kai Leng cheated. But that's not what Shepard is blaming themself for. Shepard is taking the blame for THESSIA. Not the data.

[Xilizhra]

The harshness is wholly appropraite and neccesary to those who were involved in hiding the beacon. If they didn't hide the beacon, and the VI inside said beacon, the Reaper threat would've been VERY minimal and most of the deaths in ME3 would be completely avoided.

This is absurd. Even if the asari could tap the beacon for information, even the ones in the know had no idea that the VI was there. Tevos just mentioned that there might be something in it that might, in theory, be of use. The matriarchs probably thought it was just another information cache like the ones other races found, albeit a more complete one, and didn't think of using it for the Crucible until things got really desperate and they were digging around through all possible resources.

[David7204]

I'm interested in how you all think an actual government would respond to such a crisis in real life.

The general sentiment on the BSN seems to be "Build ten gazillion dreadnaughts or you're the stupidest person ever, EVER!"

[Xilizhra]

I don't think people dislike the asari because of sexism or anti-feminism. They probably dislike the asari because they regard them as a Mary Sue race, or sex fanservice, or the writer's pet race, or a mix of all three. I doubt people would feel the same way about an all female race that looked exactly like the elcor, for instance. It isn't gender.

All the same, I've never disliked the asari, or understood the hate. Only time I even came close to it was when I saw Liara's love scene and compared it to the one I got, and that was just an irrational surge of envy and despair that hit me while I was doing this.

People wouldn't see them as feminine in the same way if they looked like elcor. It wouldn't count. But because they resemble human women, it does count, and the calls of "mary sue" are merely covering for something uglier in many cases, I'm certain. Many "fanservice" lines are similar.

[Nightwriter]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
1. When I played the game, it seemed like the fall of Thessia was presented as far more final than the siege of Earth. As in, Earth was still fighting, Anderson was still kicking, but Thessia was dead. Just straight up dead. No bouncing back within anyone's lifetimes. The survival of the asari now rested on the shoulders of those on other colonies.

2. Liara isn't responsible for the actions of her government anymore than Shepard is responsible for the actions of the Alliance, so I don't get why anyone should want to shake her while she's grieving.

1. Yeah, that's odd. Granted the sotry after this point goes downhill anyway so perhaps we just don't hear about it.

2. Never said she was and not in the group about shaking. Just wanted to say "Yes, it sucks, but this has been happening elsewhere and we need to keep it together to save anyone. Plus, those few who hid the beacon are responsible for Thessia's problems, not you Liara."

Agree then.

[Xilizhra]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
1. When I played the game, it seemed like the fall of Thessia was presented as far more final than the siege of Earth. As in, Earth was still fighting, Anderson was still kicking, but Thessia was dead. Just straight up dead. No bouncing back within anyone's lifetimes. The survival of the asari now rested on the shoulders of those on other colonies.

2. Liara isn't responsible for the actions of her government anymore than Shepard is responsible for the actions of the Alliance, so I don't get why anyone should want to shake her while she's grieving.

1. Yeah, that's odd. Granted the sotry after this point goes downhill anyway so perhaps we just don't hear about it.

2. Never said she was and not in the group about shaking. Just wanted to say "Yes, it sucks, but this has been happening elsewhere and we need to keep it together to save anyone. Plus, those few who hid the beacon are responsible for Thessia's problems, not you Liara."

It's still grossly unhelpful and attacking the wrong people for her current mindset. You need to focus on the Reapers as the negative and the remaining asari as the positive. Don't split things.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think people dislike the asari because of sexism or anti-feminism. They probably dislike the asari because they regard them as a Mary Sue race, or sex fanservice, or the writer's pet race, or a mix of all three. I doubt people would feel the same way about an all female race that looked exactly like the elcor, for instance. It isn't gender.

All the same, I've never disliked the asari, or understood the hate. Only time I even came close to it was when I saw Liara's love scene and compared it to the one I got, and that was just an irrational surge of envy and despair that hit me while I was doing this.

People wouldn't see them as feminine in the same way if they looked like elcor. It wouldn't count. But because they resemble human women, it does count, and the calls of "mary sue" are merely covering for something uglier in many cases, I'm certain. Many "fanservice" lines are similar.

This reminds me of the times I've been called a "racist" because I take issue with Barack Obama's policies.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but what this argument looks like is "if you dislike Asari, the only explanation is that you're a closet sexist."

[Mcfly616]

STEEEEEEEEEEVE!!!!

I'm okay



....you sure?