39 réponses à ce sujet

[Auintus]

 Asunder spoilers, so if you haven't read it, do so. It's pretty good.



Now, the Litany is a well-known anti-demon device. It works on Cole, so he must be a demon, right? But then there's this:

"There was a Cole[the mage]." [Cole(demon)] whispered. "You forgot him in that cell, and I heard his cries when no one else would. I went to him, and held his hand in the darkness until it was over. When the templars found him, they erased everything to hide their shame...and I was helpless to act." Sorrow, and perhaps even regret, crossed the young man's face, but only for a moment. "I'm not helpless any longer."

Maybe I'm wrong, but that doesn't sound like a demon. Is the Litany indescriminant between spirits and demons? Or are demons more complex than we understand?

[Fredward]

I read the book a while ago but doesn't Lambert make it sound like it works on spirits AND demons? I'd be glad if Cole is a demon and not a spirit though, demons are waaaaay more interesting. And Justice changed when he merged with Anders because Anders was so angry about mage injustice and whatnot, maybe a demon can be changed when they possess someone as well? When I look at all the types of demon I'm not sure I can match any of them to possess Cole, except maybe Desire to escape, but does a demon really need a reason that satisfies its archetype before possessing someone? And the actions Cole takes to prolong his existence, even if he does not fully understand his motives, bespeak more demonic influence than that of a spirit...

I asked a question almost along these lines in the question thread but no one answered.

[Reznore57]

It seems like demons and spirits are basically the same thing.

But one things bothers me , I understood that the Litany was used to break mind control spell , stuff related to blood magic.
Not just aimed at demons.
So in the end , it seems like Cole mind control Rhys (and others) without even knowing what he was doing.
It doesn't mean he's a demon.

He doesn't know what he is , he have powers and knowledge of blood magic, he has urges to kill , he still has memories of Cole (abomination ?)

About demons/spirit being more complex , I kind of hope so...I found them really boring.
Wynne 's spirit is more like an benevolent energy , Justice was sort of interesting because he discovers the world of the living but beyond that ...
Demons are somewhat worse , always trying to destroy or tempt you.I don't even bother with them in game because you just knows how it ends.

If Cole is a spirit/Demon , I hope it will be different.
Because for now spirits frolic happily in the fade, and demons just try to get to the other side ( and they don't even really know why...)and they have no clue about anything .

[Chaos Lord Malek]

Lambert clearly states that it works only on demons. I don't know if it makes any difference between spirits and demons.

And it breaks blood magic mind control - because that's in fact demonic possession. So it doesn't work at the target or the caster, but the demon which made the spell in trade for blood from the caster.

[Auintus]

I understood Cole as a demon/spirit that knew the mage Cole before he died, not an abomination. Rarely we find examples of demons or spirits that are vastly more interesting than the "Grr, I kill." types that we fight. The desire demon in Broken Circle was pretty interesting, despite the short time frame. Awakening Justice was much more fascinating than I expected, since I played DA2 first. I hope we meet more characterized demons in DA3.

[brushyourteeth]

The Litany only has the power to break the mind domination that comes from blood magic.

Lambert concludes that since it works on Cole, he must be a demon. And I have to say, he kind of has a point. I've never in the lore heard of a benevolent fade spirit being pro-blood magic. Justice, for one thing, is pretty grossed out by it.

Interesting topic!!

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 12 novembre 2012 - 03:35 .

[ledod]

Auintus wrote...

 Asunder spoilers, so if you haven't read it, do so. It's pretty good.



Now, the Litany is a well-known anti-demon device. It works on Cole, so he must be a demon, right? But then there's this:

"There was a Cole[the mage]." [Cole(demon)] whispered. "You forgot him in that cell, and I heard his cries when no one else would. I went to him, and held his hand in the darkness until it was over. When the templars found him, they erased everything to hide their shame...and I was helpless to act." Sorrow, and perhaps even regret, crossed the young man's face, but only for a moment. "I'm not helpless any longer."

Maybe I'm wrong, but that doesn't sound like a demon. Is the Litany indescriminant between spirits and demons? Or are demons more complex than we understand?

Demons are not distinct entities from spirits in Thedas. Rather, demons are merely individual spirits that constuct their egos around specific spheres of the human experiece: lust, wrath, gluttony, and pride. In other words, the Litany is a tool to dispel spirits; both malevolent spirits, and benevolent spirits.

[ledod]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Lambert clearly states that it works only on demons. I don't know if it makes any difference between spirits and demons.

And it breaks blood magic mind control - because that's in fact demonic possession. So it doesn't work at the target or the caster, but the demon which made the spell in trade for blood from the caster.

It 'works' only demons, because that is the only time one would use the litany. With the few exception of spiritual possession, non-demonic-spirit possession, most instances of possesion are perpetrated by demons. In other words, one could use the Litany on spirits, but the circumstances which spiritual possession occurs are very unusual.

Modifié par ledod, 12 novembre 2012 - 06:18 .

[ledod]

oops

Modifié par ledod, 12 novembre 2012 - 06:24 .

[DreGregoire]

I will say this and this alone. I found it hard to believe anything Lambert said! hahaha! Seriously though he could have been told that or he could have just slanted the knowledge he gained into a form that matched what he needed for his crusade.

If there is one thing the devs/authors have tried to make clear to the BSN public is that what is told by any one person (npc, codex, character in a story) is not necessary the truth, or the whole truth, or completely accurate. It's the way things are in our world and I find that authors and game developers enjoy using (expoiting) the tendency of people (npcs, codex, characters in stories) to interepret things differently and to even out right change the facts to suit themselves.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 12 novembre 2012 - 02:54 .

[DreGregoire]

Oh and here's a blip about Adralla, which leads me to believe that the Litany of Adralla has more uses than just for Demons as Lambert says.

"Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice. A deeply pious mage, she was renowned in her day for having found a counter to every form of mind control, a defense against dream walkers, and even counter-spells to demonic summons." "The Litany of Adralla disrupts the casting of mind control spells."
http://dragonage.wik...tany_of_Adralla

Modifié par DreGregoire, 12 novembre 2012 - 03:08 .

[The Hierophant]

I thought that the Litany only breaks the control of blood magic, as Niall still got murked by the sloth demon?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 12 novembre 2012 - 03:06 .

[DreGregoire]

The Hierophant wrote...

I thought that the Litany only breaks the control of blood magic, as Niall still got murked by the sloth demon?

I'm worried about this being a spoiler (for the DAO tower quest) but what I remembered is that Niall died because he was seperated from his body too long.

[The Hierophant]

DreGregoire wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I thought that the Litany only breaks the control of blood magic, as Niall still got murked by the sloth demon?

I'm worried about this being a spoiler (for the DAO tower quest) but what I remembered is that Niall died because he was seperated from his body too long.

Almost 3 years have passed so i doubt it's an issue, but to elaborate on my above  - i thought the litany had no anti demon or repelling effect, as Slothy made no mention of it having any affect on him, and it had no offensive capabilities in the Uldred fight.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Litany could be used to stun and kill the small abominations that spawned in the Uldred fight (and throughout the tower for that matter).

[Auintus]

The Hierophant wrote...

Almost 3 years have passed so i doubt it's an issue, but to elaborate on my above  - i thought the litany had no anti demon or repelling effect, as Slothy made no mention of it having any affect on him, and it had no offensive capabilities in the Uldred fight.

It has to actually be used. Just having it is no good. I imagine the demon got him before he could use it.

[DreGregoire]

It was my impression that the only thing the Litany did in the fight was break Uldred's mind control over both demons (changed humans) and humans. This would definately have a stunning type impact. And then you have to kill the demons before they and Uldred try to gain control again (and Uldred needs to perish). I'm not saying that the mechanics of the game didn't make it appear somewhat differently (especially on the lower difficulty settings), but that's what I understood it to be doing.

And we do not use the Litany to release Niall. Breaking ourselves out of the trap the "sloth" and other demons set for us in the fade was an entirely seperate issue from being in the upper tower Harrowing Chamber and stopping Uldred from mind forcing the tower mages to turn. And Niall never had a chance to use the Litany before falling into the same trap that the PC's party fell into.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 12 novembre 2012 - 10:11 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

According to the Codex, the Litany specifically disrupts the mind-controlling powers of blood magic. While Adralla is said to have found counters for many forms of blood magic, the Litany in DA:O is only for that one.

Mechanically, and as Wynne says, you have to use it in-game while Uldred is casting his blood magic spell on the mages. Once the spell is cast and they're turned into abominations, it's too late to counter.

It's possible that the Litany in Fereldan's Circle is designed differently to that in the novel, which is of course in Orlais.

Of note is that Wynne in her dialogue contradicts the Litany of Adralla Codex. Wynne says Adralla was a bard in service to the White Divine, and the Litany was designed specifically to aid the templars against blood magic.

[Urzon]

brushyourteeth wrote...

The Litany only has the power to break the mind domination that comes from blood magic.

Lambert concludes that since it works on Cole, he must be a demon. And I have to say, he kind of has a point. I've never in the lore heard of a benevolent fade spirit being pro-blood magic. Justice, for one thing, is pretty grossed out by it.

Interesting topic!!

Hmm...

Do Spirits, as a whole, have a distrust towards blood magic? I'v always assumed (for shame, i know) that it would be more of a case by case basis, depending on what the Spirit is spirit of.

Justice is strongly against it, because of the amounts of injustice the actions of blood mages caused over the years.

Faith would be neutral in the matter. Blood magic has nothing to really do with it. Unless, the religion (and general opinions of certain matters) of the populace can change the thought processes of the Spirits and Demons in that surrounding region's Fade. Which would be a very interesting thought....

Spirits of Valor on the other hand, I can see going either way, all depending on its use. They could see a blood mage sacrificing their own health, for a battle against an enemy, as a sign of bravery. If they would sacrifice their underlings or fellow comrades to save themselves, they would surely see that as an act of cowardice.

Key thing to take away from this... We need more spirits. Period. I would personally prefer neutral spirits like: knowledge, truth, strength, and sacrifice. Anything to counteract all the slack-jawed demons.

[Thomas0910]

i'm kinda curious whether the power of the litany is within the words or the litany itself...
if the power was within the words, there would be no problem in copying the text or memorizing it
thus, templars should be able to do so...which they apparently do not do
on the other hand it's just weird for a mage to simply write a scroll with such extraordinary power,
also it's a prayer, there should be no need to hold it in hands i think
any ideas?

p.s. i just imagine a line or verse to be a greeting or saying among the folk,
it's common enough in the real world, even better if it's written in latin (you know)

Modifié par Thomas0910, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:39 .

[brushyourteeth]

Urzon wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

The Litany only has the power to break the mind domination that comes from blood magic.

Lambert concludes that since it works on Cole, he must be a demon. And I have to say, he kind of has a point. I've never in the lore heard of a benevolent fade spirit being pro-blood magic. Justice, for one thing, is pretty grossed out by it.

Interesting topic!!

Hmm...

Do Spirits, as a whole, have a distrust towards blood magic? I'v always assumed (for shame, i know) that it would be more of a case by case basis, depending on what the Spirit is spirit of.

Justice is strongly against it, because of the amounts of injustice the actions of blood mages caused over the years.

Faith would be neutral in the matter. Blood magic has nothing to really do with it. Unless, the religion (and general opinions of certain matters) of the populace can change the thought processes of the Spirits and Demons in that surrounding region's Fade. Which would be a very interesting thought....

Spirits of Valor on the other hand, I can see going either way, all depending on its use. They could see a blood mage sacrificing their own health, for a battle against an enemy, as a sign of bravery. If they would sacrifice their underlings or fellow comrades to save themselves, they would surely see that as an act of cowardice.

Key thing to take away from this... We need more spirits. Period. I would personally prefer neutral spirits like: knowledge, truth, strength, and sacrifice. Anything to counteract all the slack-jawed demons.

Just now noticed this - sorry for the slow response! 

I got the impression (which again, is just completely my impression) that the non-nasty spirits are pretty religiously pro-Maker and support, at least, the theory of his existence and the idea that using blood magic is immoral.

Whether they're right or wrong I couldn't say, but I get the idea that they, at least, think it's something abominable. I also could just be really wrong. 

Agree that we need more spirits, and at least much more information about them!!

[Auintus]

Agree that we need more spirits, and at least much more information about them!!

[Knight of Dane]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I read the book a while ago but doesn't Lambert make it sound like it works on spirits AND demons? I'd be glad if Cole is a demon and not a spirit though, demons are waaaaay more interesting. And Justice changed when he merged with Anders because Anders was so angry about mage injustice and whatnot, maybe a demon can be changed when they possess someone as well? When I look at all the types of demon I'm not sure I can match any of them to possess Cole, except maybe Desire to escape, but does a demon really need a reason that satisfies its archetype before possessing someone? And the actions Cole takes to prolong his existence, even if he does not fully understand his motives, bespeak more demonic influence than that of a spirit...

I asked a question almost along these lines in the question thread but no one answered.

The reason it works on both is because spirits and demons are the same.

[Heimdall]

There is no difference between spirits and demons besides personality (What aspect they give themselves)

[brushyourteeth]

Lord Aesir wrote...

There is no difference between spirits and demons besides personality (What aspect they give themselves)

That could be true, or it could just be something Merrill said to make herself feel more secure about interacting with one.

I mean, somebody has to be wrong. We don't have significant enough evidence at this point to make that kind of call. In fact, if anything, I'd say that there is a difference, since Justice himself and other fade spirits (like Valor) refer to demons as demons. They seem to draw a distinction and be ok with using the label, and they'd know more about it than any mortal would.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 15 novembre 2012 - 05:34 .