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[esper]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

There is no difference between spirits and demons besides personality (What aspect they give themselves)

That could be true, or it could just be something Merrill said to make herself feel more secure about interacting with one.

I mean, somebody has to be wrong. We don't have significant enough evidence at this point to make that kind of call. In fact, if anything, I'd say that there is a difference, since Justice himself and other fade spirits (like Valor) refer to demons as demons. They seem to draw a distinction and be ok with using the label, and they'd know more about it than any mortal would.

The problem is that Justice also said that spirits take their faith from what they see in the dreams off the Fade, That means that if most dreamers are Andrastian the spirits are going to be Andrastian too and make the same distinction between spirits and demons as humans. It would be no different than some fantatic from any faith thinking that those out of the faith is unhuman/babaric.

I do think that there is a difference, just as there are difference between human and elves. Both are fade creatures, but 'spirits' brain just doens't work the same ways as 'demons'.

Demons give themselves name and seem to value their identity (either because they are emulating humans or because they just are individuals) Not all the names have to do with their 'emotion'. Also demons don't seem bound on their emotion the same way. A pride demon have no problem playing pathethic if it thinks it will gains it goals (Mouse). If anything it seems that demons emotion are a tool they can use to manipulate humans and the more the can overcome that tool the stronger they are. (Not all hunger demon are mindless for example. Despite what the codex says)

Spirits on the other hand (even if we have only talked to two) seems to really believe that they are their ideal. (At least Valor and Justice did) and Justice didn't even wanted to name himself. And they also seem to demand that other lives by their own ideal, unlike demons who frankly doesn't seem to care as long as they get what they want. Also no matter how corrupt Justice/Vengence was he never expressed the same selffishness/self preservation that a demon does. Instead his ideal of Justice just more violent as well as the scoped narrowed down to mages.

So either demons are just present incosistent in the games and out of place with the codex or (which I am more inclined to believe) nobody has been capable of doing proper non religious research on what they are without being killed/hunted down/going crazy/have they mind utterly twisted. 

[Auintus]

The spirits we have seen seem to think in absolutes. Justice describes them as "pitying mortals, not envying them" While demons seek to cross the veil, spirits do not. I think that this is because spirits embody nobler ideals while demons embody baser emotions.
Would a prideful being prefer to remain bound? So crossing the veil is following that motivator, pride.
A rage demon can scarcely lash out at a fluctuating world where the damage it causes would vanish and be replaced. So it seeks the mortal world, where destruction is real and lasting.
Spirits motivations do not require crossing the Veil, but they do on occasion.

What is interesting are the parallels. Justice is described as transforming from a spirit of Justice to a demon of vengeance. Two sides of the same coin. Could demons be pushed the other way?

[DreGregoire]

Auintus wrote...
What is interesting are the parallels. Justice is described as transforming from a spirit of Justice to a demon of vengeance. Two sides of the same coin. Could demons be pushed the other way?

I'm probably wrong on this but I always imagined that demons were once spirits that were overcome by a need. Sloth, desire, etc. So the theory that demons could be pushed the other way is a neat one, but would it be so easy to overcome a need that has become an obession. I'm thinking there is no rehab for demons. Still it's an interesting concept. The Spirit of Justice was warped by Anders own anger with the plight of mages and became a Spirit of Vengeance. For that matter Justice warped Anders just as much as Anders warped his perception enough so that when Anders becomes angry he becomes lost to Vengeance.

Even the whole Cole situation makes me wonder and speculate about the initially limited view I had of the beings in the fade. At first I was like "Okay, demons bad, spirits good," but as I continued playing DA my viewpoint adjusted (hey became warped) to accept that maybe things aren't so black and white in regards to the fade and all.

[ledod]

Perhaps demons need the living, because sin a product of Earthliness? In other words, one cannot lust without another, one is unable to have pride without an inferior, etc...

[StarcloudSWG]

Merrill makes it pretty clear in DA 2, in one of the dialog interactions with Anders, that there's no difference between a spirit and a demon. They're *all* single-minded embodiments of an ideal, and they're *all* dangerous.

Her error is in believing that knowing this fact, that all spirits of the fade are dangerous, means she is somehow better equipped to deal with one.

[Avroseeker]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Merrill makes it pretty clear in DA 2, in one of the dialog interactions with Anders, that there's no difference between a spirit and a demon. They're *all* single-minded embodiments of an ideal, and they're *all* dangerous.

That sort of reminds me how parents tell their kids 'not to talk to strangers.' Sure some strangers are amazing people, but as a child you might be hard to understand the difference between a good or bad stranger. So it's just easier and perhaps safer to say that all strangers are bad. Instead of the parent trying to explain this and that to a child that might not be able to fully understand it anyways.

Modifié par Avroseeker, 16 novembre 2012 - 12:54 .

[DreGregoire]

Yeah, I'm not really sure I would consider Merrill a reliable source of information in regards to spirits and demons.

She is so clearly the thrall of that mirror! hahaha!

Modifié par DreGregoire, 16 novembre 2012 - 01:23 .

[Auintus]

DreGregoire wrote...

I'm probably wrong on this but I always imagined that demons were once spirits that were overcome by a need. Sloth, desire, etc. So the theory that demons could be pushed the other way is a neat one, but would it be so easy to overcome a need that has become an obession. I'm thinking there is no rehab for demons. Still it's an interesting concept. The Spirit of Justice was warped by Anders own anger with the plight of mages and became a Spirit of Vengeance. For that matter Justice warped Anders just as much as Anders warped his perception enough so that when Anders becomes angry he becomes lost to Vengeance.

Even the whole Cole situation makes me wonder and speculate about the initially limited view I had of the beings in the fade. At first I was like "Okay, demons bad, spirits good," but as I continued playing DA my viewpoint adjusted (hey became warped) to accept that maybe things aren't so black and white in regards to the fade and all.

My point was that vengeance and justice are the same thing, but to different extremes. Neither is really more corrupt than the other, and they are both rather absolute. There is a "better" version of pride: plain confidence. Desire and sloth both sound bad, but desire is also a motivation, when not over done, and rest is required by all. What they embody is only a problem when taken to a great extent. If Justice could be distorted, perhaps another could be tempered to a less extreme ground.

Cole is unique. The demon/spirit does not appear to embody any particular trait. Perhaps pity. But the fact that it can show remorse, sorrow, makes me thing that in Awakening, Justice was on to something. Spirits are changed by their experiences in the real world. Perhaps enough to help some overcome their nature altogether.

[StarcloudSWG]

Avroseeker wrote...

That sort of reminds me how parents tell their kids 'not to talk to strangers.' Sure some strangers are amazing people, but as a child you might be hard to understand the difference between a good or bad stranger. So it's just easier and perhaps safer to say that all strangers are bad. Instead of the parent trying to explain this and that to a child that might not be able to fully understand it anyways.

Every spirit we see in game. Every. single. one. is monomaniacal. There is no spirit that is not monomaniacal. Spirits are dangerous because of that monomania. There is no gray. There is no shading. There is nothing other than The Purpose.

As a result, every spirit is dangerous. Even the one that Wynne was possessed by is dangerous. I'll leave it up to you to figure out how, but one hint is that it's dedicated to preserving life. Take that to a monomaniacal extreme.

[Auintus]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

As a result, every spirit is dangerous. Even the one that Wynne was possessed by is dangerous. I'll leave it up to you to figure out how, but one hint is that it's dedicated to preserving life. Take that to a monomaniacal extreme.

Zombies?! :happy: Walking piles of bone dust?

Modifié par Auintus, 16 novembre 2012 - 02:35 .

[StarcloudSWG]

Think more villages of people who are caught between death and life. Going about their daily routines despite not needing to eat, sleep, breathe, procreate.. utterly unaware of their physical state. Or worse, utterly in denial about it.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 16 novembre 2012 - 04:37 .

[Knight of Dane]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Merrill makes it pretty clear in DA 2, in one of the dialog interactions with Anders, that there's no difference between a spirit and a demon. They're *all* single-minded embodiments of an ideal, and they're *all* dangerous.

Her error is in believing that knowing this fact, that all spirits of the fade are dangerous, means she is somehow better equipped to deal with one.

I don't beleive it's quite as simple as the Dalish think, but in general I think they are on te right track.
Their model makes them carefull to every spirit because they are a potential danger as we have seen with Justice and Wynne's spirit. They may be beneficial, but they are uncontrollable too.

I'm looking forward to seeing or hearing of what happens to Evangeline now that she has Wynne's spirit.

The Andrastian model are made to make it "ok" for them to scoff on magic but still draw from the use of healing and cleansing spells as that is drawing spirits from the fade too.

[Urzon]

Knight of Dane wrote...

I'm looking forward to seeing or hearing of what happens to Evangeline now that she has Wynne's spirit.

Wynne had the advantage of being old and set in her ways, not to mention dead-ish. Now that Faith is in a fresh and more able bodied person, it might take a more active role in Evangeline's mind. We also have to take into account that Evangeline is a templar, a warrior of faith, in the middle of a war with strong faith undertones.

It's easy to imagine that Faith is going to bend her viewpoints a bit, but she is going to turn into a cold but caring saintly type? Or maybe a fiery crusader/zealot?

Though i do wonder how the ingestion of lyrium is going to effect the spirit and/or its magic...

[Knight of Dane]

I don't think faith will alter her, but I would guess it will enhance whatever faiths she has, perhaps to a point out of control like Anders.

[esper]

Auintus wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

As a result, every spirit is dangerous. Even the one that Wynne was possessed by is dangerous. I'll leave it up to you to figure out how, but one hint is that it's dedicated to preserving life. Take that to a monomaniacal extreme.

Zombies?! :happy: Walking piles of bone dust?

In all fairness, Wynne was a zombie.