47 réponses à ce sujet

[Knight of Dane]

No you don't Shale, go pick up that Alistair over there.
*Squished*

[Pride Demon]

Sejborg wrote...

If the soul is necessary, then what about a Grey Warden? Would the Grey Warden soul become corrupted by the taint, or could a Grey Warden avoid the calling by becoming a golem?

Has this been tried?

I'd say he/she would, as the calling happens when a Grey Warden's body becomes unable to properly sustain itself against the taint that has been eroding it since the joining. As golems appear to lack anything resembling bodily fluids or flesh that could be corrupted by the taint that would probably prevent the calling, then again it would also stop the "user" from actually being a Grey Warden, as the corruption inside them is also the source of all their "powers" and, like I said, that probably wouldn't be "ported over"...

So for all intents and purposes one would stop being a Grey Warden to become a golem...

[Maclimes]

Kudos. This may be the first lore-related thread I've actually thought was interesting.

There's a number of questions we have to ask first:

Can anyone other than a dwarf be made into a golem? Perhaps something in the process requires the subject be a dwarf.

Do darkspawn have souls? Riordan seems to imply the answer is no, but he may not be the last-stop shop of darkspawn lore.

Does the taint reside within the soul, or the blood? The implication seems to be the blood, but again, this is by no means firmly established.

Is the soul actually transferred into the golem, or is it more of a "copy" of some sort? Is the physical body integrated into the golem, as well, or is it just the consciousness?

Lots of questions need to be answered before we can answer the first question (or the one about grey warden).

Modifié par Maclimes, 12 novembre 2012 - 07:59 .

[Terrorize69]

Golems need a soul (or spirit). Darkspawn are empty vessels, hence why Archdemons are reborn in a nearby darkspawn.

[Sejborg]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
THe art of creating Golems had been lost for hundreds of years, and for some playthroughs it still is, so there are no recent Grey Wardens who attempted it at least.

Good point. But in the games where The Anvil of The Void has been located and is under control of the dwarfs again, it could and should be tried.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And if the Taint is indeed an ailment of the soul aswell as the body, transfering your soul into a Golem, wouldn't save you from the inevitable insanity caused by the Taint.

But the golem being insane shouldn't be a problem. Whatever the golem wants to do of terrible things is unimportant because it can only do what the wielder of the control rod allows it to do. But I can understand it would be a terrible way to end up as an insane golem slave, just because you once were a Grey Warden. 

But then how about this:
Instead of sentencing murderers and the like to a death penalty - how about they get send away and forced to become golems?

Because they are criminals and dangerous? Well that don't matter -> control rod. 

Too inhumane to live forever as a golem slave even though the prisoner was perhaps a serial killer? Make the penalty timed then. A criminal could be sentenced to 20 years as a golem slave fighting darkspawn, before being terminated/destroyed. 

[Guns]

Sejborg wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
THe art of creating Golems had been lost for hundreds of years, and for some playthroughs it still is, so there are no recent Grey Wardens who attempted it at least.

Good point. But in the games where The Anvil of The Void has been located and is under control of the dwarfs again, it could and should be tried.

Doesn't Branka snap and basically seal herself off from the rest of the dwarves in her unpenetrable fortress or something? I think that eventually happens no matter what if The Anvil isn't destroyed so it's not under the control of the dwarven kingdom so to speak. Just one obsessive dwarf.

[Sejborg]

Maclimes wrote...

Kudos. This may be the first lore-related thread I've actually thought was interesting.

There's a number of questions we have to ask first:

Can anyone other than a dwarf be made into a golem? Perhaps something in the process requires the subject be a dwarf.

Do darkspawn have souls? Riordan seems to imply the answer is no, but he may not be the last-stop shop of darkspawn lore.

Does the taint reside within the soul, or the blood? The implication seems to be the blood, but again, this is by no means firmly established.

Is the soul actually transferred into the golem, or is it more of a "copy" of some sort? Is the physical body integrated into the golem, as well, or is it just the consciousness?

Lots of questions need to be answered before we can answer the first question (or the one about grey warden).

Good questions. It shouldn't be too hard to find out if someone in the game just tried. Perhaps start with anyone that isn't a dwarf. Then with a Grey Warden. Then with a darkspawn. Then with an awakened darkspawn. If this is tried it could answer alot of questions, both regarding the golems, but also about the different races.

[Jonata]

Well if it turns out that Grey Wardens can, in fact, become Golems, the Darkspaw is doomed: every Warden would be turned into a Golem before his soul is lost, thus forging an endless army that will basically gave the Dwarfs back their Thaigs in no time.

[legbamel]

Sejborg wrote...
Well. Doing the calling just seems like an incredible waste. The Grey Warden goes into the Deep Roads with the intend of dieing. Why not take the soul of the grey warden when the time comes, and put it in a golem?

Whether or not the soul in the golem will still succumb to the taint or not, do not matter because of the control rod. Should the golem feel like killing everyone, then that is just too bad - it can't do it. It can only do what the wielder of the control rod demands.

So you think it's a more noble end to spend eternity as a slave with no will than to die killing darkspawn as a Warden pledges to do?  I'd far rather give my life hunting and killing broodmothers (because, really, what better way to cut down on the number of darkspawn than by limiting their ability to breed?) than to be trapped forever in a pile of rock that can only do the bidding of anyone that gets their hands on my control rod.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Grey Wardens becoming Golems would be almost as cool as the Space Marine Dreadnaughts from Warhammer 40K.

[The 13th Dark Sheep]

A somewhat related question: Is it possible for a Darkspawn Emissary to be possessed by a demon or is a soul required for that as well? I can't imagine the darkspawn being intelligent enough to even try and block them out.The answer could perhaps shed some more light on wether darkspawn have a soul or not..?

[iOnlySignIn]

How about one of those smart Darkspawn created by the Architect? The Disciples, or whatever they're called? They seem as sapient as Humans and Dwarves.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The 13th Dark Sheep wrote...

A somewhat related question: Is it possible for a Darkspawn Emissary to be possessed by a demon or is a soul required for that as well? I can't imagine the darkspawn being intelligent enough to even try and block them out.The answer could perhaps shed some more light on wether darkspawn have a soul or not..?

If the demon has already crossed the veil and is on the physical plane, it is possible. But Darkspawn doesn't have a soul and the Emissaries' magic is powered by the Taint and not the Fade, and as such have no reflection in the Fade. Darkspawn, taint and The Blight is all alien to the demons, and IIRC the demons fear it.

[sylvanaerie]

Sejborg wrote...

Well. Doing the calling just seems like an incredible waste. The Grey Warden goes into the Deep Roads with the intend of dieing. Why not take the soul of the grey warden when the time comes, and put it in a golem?

Whether or not the soul in the golem will still succumb to the taint or not, do not matter because of the control rod. Should the golem feel like killing everyone, then that is just too bad - it can't do it. It can only do what the wielder of the control rod demands.

I can't speak for others, but this would be my idea of hell.  My mind intact and seeing what's happening, but unable to stop myself, completely at the whim of another.  Maybe for some grey wardens who want to continue the fight beyond their death, it's an acceptable sacrifice.  Personally, I would rather go to my calling.  A grey warden already gives up so much, must they sacrifice their humanity as well?

A question for wiser people than me.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Auintus wrote...

I...huh, well. Stone and steel seem impervious to the taint. Weird stuff grows on it, but it isn't corrupted.

I'm not so sure about that.

This is the Codex Entry for the 'Thorn of the Dead Gods' daggers in DA:O:

In the moment that it struck, the blade of the Grey Warden who killed Toth, Archdemon of Fire, shattered into three pieces. After the Battle of Hunter Fell, the Wardens carried their fallen brother to Weisshaupt for a hero's burial, but the broken pieces of his sword were left behind.

For years, the shards lay forgotten on the battlefield. Steel became etched with the corrupted blood of the dead god. They were eventually discovered by a Nevarran woman, searching among the bones for a sign of her lost son. She sold them to a blacksmith, not knowing what they truly were, for ten bits.

The smith, however, knew that he had purchased more than scrap metal, and fashioned the shards into three identical daggers: the Thorns of the Dead Gods. They left his hands and were scattered to the far corners of Thedas. But everywhere they went, the Thorns left misery and loss in their wake. The woman who unearthed them died soon after of plague. The smith fell into his forge. Each person who has held one of the Thorns, even briefly, has died an untimely death.

Silly legend maybe? But something to ponder regardless.

Edit: Also, completely contradicts the standard item description. *sigh*

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 14 novembre 2012 - 02:42 .

[Sejborg]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Well. Doing the calling just seems like an incredible waste. The Grey Warden goes into the Deep Roads with the intend of dieing. Why not take the soul of the grey warden when the time comes, and put it in a golem?

Whether or not the soul in the golem will still succumb to the taint or not, do not matter because of the control rod. Should the golem feel like killing everyone, then that is just too bad - it can't do it. It can only do what the wielder of the control rod demands.

I can't speak for others, but this would be my idea of hell.  My mind intact and seeing what's happening, but unable to stop myself, completely at the whim of another.  Maybe for some grey wardens who want to continue the fight beyond their death, it's an acceptable sacrifice.  Personally, I would rather go to my calling.  A grey warden already gives up so much, must they sacrifice their humanity as well?

A question for wiser people than me.

Well I guess that's because you assume the wielder of the control rod is a complete jackass. How about if the wielder of the rod would do something that the golem liked and was nice?

Imagine being numb from the neck down. In that case you are also at the whim of another. But that "other" could be some nice helpers, and if that's the case, then your life could very well still be worth living.
Perhaps the grey warden golem actually do like to help out and waste darkspawn. Then it could do that some of the time. Perhaps it would like to transport cargo, or help out with some construction work, then it could help with that.  

If the golem wants to die, then that should be an option. 

But if the golem wants to kill allot of innocent people and destroy cities - well, then that is just too bad. That is not an option...



...or is it? 

[SerTabris]

It seems to me that even if darkspawn did have souls, since they're following the Archdemon anyway, they might simply be willing (for whatever level of cognition and decision-making they're capable of).

[sylvanaerie]

Sejborg wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Well. Doing the calling just seems like an incredible waste. The Grey Warden goes into the Deep Roads with the intend of dieing. Why not take the soul of the grey warden when the time comes, and put it in a golem?

Whether or not the soul in the golem will still succumb to the taint or not, do not matter because of the control rod. Should the golem feel like killing everyone, then that is just too bad - it can't do it. It can only do what the wielder of the control rod demands.

I can't speak for others, but this would be my idea of hell.  My mind intact and seeing what's happening, but unable to stop myself, completely at the whim of another.  Maybe for some grey wardens who want to continue the fight beyond their death, it's an acceptable sacrifice.  Personally, I would rather go to my calling.  A grey warden already gives up so much, must they sacrifice their humanity as well?

A question for wiser people than me.

Well I guess that's because you assume the wielder of the control rod is a complete jackass. How about if the wielder of the rod would do something that the golem liked and was nice?

Imagine being numb from the neck down. In that case you are also at the whim of another. But that "other" could be some nice helpers, and if that's the case, then your life could very well still be worth living.
Perhaps the grey warden golem actually do like to help out and waste darkspawn. Then it could do that some of the time. Perhaps it would like to transport cargo, or help out with some construction work, then it could help with that.  

If the golem wants to die, then that should be an option. 

But if the golem wants to kill allot of innocent people and destroy cities - well, then that is just too bad. That is not an option...



...or is it? 

Kinda like Wilhelm was a nice guy to Shale?  The potential for abuse is there, if your rod fell into the wrong hands (imagine the havoc an Emissary could wreak with its own pet golem).  If I were to have my mind, be in control of my actions, that's a different story, but at the whim of another?  No.  Ain't happening, life wouldn't be worth living.  I'd rather be dead.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 14 novembre 2012 - 04:21 .

[Josielyn]

This is an awesome thread. What a cool question! If I were a Grey Warden, I would want to be made into a Golem before the taint took full hold, but no control rod please! Then I wonder if the Architect would start making "tainted golems" maybe the "song" instead of the soul is what is needed for the Darkspawn golem.

[Sejborg]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Well I guess that's because you assume the wielder of the control rod is a complete jackass. How about if the wielder of the rod would do something that the golem liked and was nice?

Imagine being numb from the neck down. In that case you are also at the whim of another. But that "other" could be some nice helpers, and if that's the case, then your life could very well still be worth living.
Perhaps the grey warden golem actually do like to help out and waste darkspawn. Then it could do that some of the time. Perhaps it would like to transport cargo, or help out with some construction work, then it could help with that.  

If the golem wants to die, then that should be an option. 

But if the golem wants to kill allot of innocent people and destroy cities - well, then that is just too bad. That is not an option...



...or is it? 

Kinda like Wilhelm was a nice guy to Shale?  The potential for abuse is there, if your rod fell into the wrong hands (imagine the havoc an Emissary could wreak with its own pet golem).  If I were to have my mind, be in control of my actions, that's a different story, but at the whim of another?  No.  Ain't happening, life wouldn't be worth living.  I'd rather be dead.

No. Wilhelm wasn't a nice guy. He never thought to ask what Shale wanted to do. But sure. Some might prefer to be dead instead of go on living. And then I think you should be allowed to die. 
Take this guy who is suffering from locked-in-syndrom: 
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/lockedin-syndrome-sufferers-lose-legal-challenge-over-assisted-dying-8053451.html

He wants to die but is not allowed. I think that is horrible. So if you don't want to become a golem, or changes your mind at any point, then you should be allowed to die. 

Let it be up to the individual to make the decision. When the calling comes, then give the warden the option to become a golem. Don't just force him to go kill himself, when there is the option to go on living as a golem. Should the golem want to die later on, then let that be an option. 

You and others don't want to be a golem, and that's fine - you don't have to. You can go do the calling and die. But others might want to become a golem and continue to live, so let it be their choice. 

Modifié par Sejborg, 14 novembre 2012 - 02:30 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

You could also just, you know, not create control rods, and then not make serial killers reap the rewards of eternal life in an indestructible form. I mean, that seems like the logical choice...

[Sajuro]

Maclimes wrote...

Kudos. This may be the first lore-related thread I've actually thought was interesting.

There's a number of questions we have to ask first:

Can anyone other than a dwarf be made into a golem? Perhaps something in the process requires the subject be a dwarf.

Do darkspawn have souls? Riordan seems to imply the answer is no, but he may not be the last-stop shop of darkspawn lore.

Does the taint reside within the soul, or the blood? The implication seems to be the blood, but again, this is by no means firmly established.

Is the soul actually transferred into the golem, or is it more of a "copy" of some sort? Is the physical body integrated into the golem, as well, or is it just the consciousness?

Lots of questions need to be answered before we can answer the first question (or the one about grey warden).

I think the problem is what is a soul within the Dragon Age setting, from my interpretation while the taint is of the blood it taints the soul which is a result of sentience interacting with the physical aspects of a person. To bring in Elder Scrolls, if the Dark Spawn had souls they would probably be the equivalent of white souls while gaining sentience moves them up to black souls, but I don't think Dark Spawn have souls really since the lack of souls could be the only factor seperating Wardens from Darkspawn

[Sajuro]

Guns wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
THe art of creating Golems had been lost for hundreds of years, and for some playthroughs it still is, so there are no recent Grey Wardens who attempted it at least.

Good point. But in the games where The Anvil of The Void has been located and is under control of the dwarfs again, it could and should be tried.

Doesn't Branka snap and basically seal herself off from the rest of the dwarves in her unpenetrable fortress or something? I think that eventually happens no matter what if The Anvil isn't destroyed so it's not under the control of the dwarven kingdom so to speak. Just one obsessive dwarf.

Who is most likely tainted and going to go bat **** insane sooner rather than later.