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[PinkysPain]

The devs repeatedly have expressed their displeasure about the community embracing the term Kossith ... saying it's aking to using the term ****** Sapiens to refer to humans from Boston for instance. The devs pretend we should use the term Qunari, but that's ludicrous ... we don't say "Catholics from Boston" to refer to all humans in Boston either. Qunari are the proponents of a multiracial religion, it's a near useless term to refer to a race ... I can only assume the devs are being disingenious.

The only reasonable explanation to me seems that the devs internally subdivide Kossith beyond just Qunari and Tal-vashoth ... but they refuse to use the same terminology when communicating with us because they don't want to give too much away from the future direction of the game (presumably the Qunari Kossith fled some greater Kossith empire with different beliefs which is yet to make it's introduction).

I wish they would stop telling us to use the name for a religion to refer to a race though ...

[David Gaider]

What I don't like is people referring to "Kossith" as if it's a term that everyone should know-- as opposed to something that's been barely mentioned in-game. People also use it incorrectly, using Kossith when what they actually mean is Tal-Vashoth.

It's also not a term the Qunari would use themselves. If you want to refer to the horned race, it's Qunari. Members of their religion who are not also part of the horned race are generally called Viddathari. If you really want to say "Kossith", that's up to you-- we can hardly stop you, and I've no idea why you'd care about what we think-- but it's a little annoying when people roll out "Kossith" first, when everyone would know what they're talking about if they just said "Qunari".

[David Gaider]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
The way this term was used in-game led me to believe that viddathari meant voluntary converts (like Shamus or the elven brothers) who were still learning the Qun, as opposed to conquered or neutral people who were in the process of being converted en masse.  Those seem to be called kabethari.  Qunari seemed to be reserved for full-blown converts who were integrated into Qunari society (like Tallis) or for people who were born into it.

This is correct. All Kabethari will become Viddathari eventually, unless they resist and are turned into mindless workers.

Viddathari will always think of themselves as Qunari, but others will continue to maintain that distinction. So if you're looking for a term to refer to them by, that would be correct. If you're afraid that, by using the term Qunari, you're going to confuse someone who thinks you're referring to the likes of Tallis, I can assure you you're going to confuse far less people than by using "Kossith" (which, as I said, is also sometimes used incorrectly and-- more annoying-- sometimes has people chiding others for not knowing a term which is only brought up in a few codex entries).

[Mary Kirby]

Fraq Hound wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Kossith would be the scientific term for the species of giant ash skinned horned humanoids. Just like ****** Sapiens is the scientific term for humans. However, just like with humans settling with "African" "European" "Black" "White" and so on and so forth, settling for Qunari and Tal-Vasoth would be more common, specific and, probably in most cases, correct.

Okay, I hear that, and honestly that's what I originally thought and how I was using the term.

However, this sentence here:

David Gaider wrote...

-snip-

... If you want to refer to the horned race, it's Qunari...

-snip-

seems to contradict that.

Maybe I'm just overthinking this...

"Kossith" is an antiquated term, not a technical one. It was used to describe the culture that predated the Qun. It may not have even been the name of a race at all. It's the equivalent of calling white people, "Occidental." A few members of the Qunari priesthood are going to recognize the word, but no one else in Thedas would know what the heck this term means.

Modern Qunari do not have a term for their race for the same reason that nobody in Thedas has a name for their planet. As far as they are concerned, the world consists of people and things-that-aren't-people. All other distinctions are unimportant. 

Other Thedosians do not draw distinctions between Those Tall Guys Who Sometimes Have Horns Who Follow the Qun and The Other Tall Guys who Sometimes Have Horns Who Don't. They are all, "Qunari" to the humans, elves, and dwarves.

[Mary Kirby]

Spedfrom wrote...

Mary, do you think it's believable that Thedosians other than "big greys" wouldn't come up with a term to only describe the race without referencing their religion? I mean, Thedas is clearly a place where race segregation exists, just look at the mistreatment of the elves.

And it's not like all "big greys" are Qunari. I know you mean that to other people the word Qunari itself is in reference to those beings and that's all they know what to call them, but what happens when Thedosians are confronted with the existence of elves, humans and dwarves that are Qunari?

They call them, "Elven Qunari," or, "Human Qunari," or, 'Qunari convert." Nine times out of ten, if someone says, "Orlesian," they mean a human from Orlais, but now and then they mean an Orlesian city elf, or an Orlesian surface dwarf, and usually they will say, "Orlesian elf" to clarify.

[Mary Kirby]

Firky wrote...

Fraq Hound wrote...
The Qunari themselves not having a name for those born with this defect (If it is indeed a defect) is more puzzling to me. I mean they name everything else, why not this?

The qunari don't differentiate between horns and no horns?

My guess there would be that it's because there is no functional difference between the person. (Because function is everything, right?)

It's not a defect. It's a minor genetic variation. The equivalent would be closer to having naturally copper-red hair. The Qunari just say, "Oh, he's hornless," in the same way we'd say, "He's ginger." It's just an adjective, not a classification.

[Mary Kirby]

Elfman wrote...

I thought hornless Qunari were "special". Not in a Sandal way.

Sure. Qunari think they have unusual traits in the same way that some people think gingers have special traits. Maybe they're more hot-tempered, or they have a higher pain threshold, or they have no soul, or whatever. It doesn't mean it's actually true.

[Mary Kirby]

Firky wrote...

So, if qunari just see horns as natural variation, like hair, why do saarebas -es have theirs cut off?

Well, Ketojan and the Redemption saarebas and the saarebas model in DA2. (Although not concept art. Maybe.)

Many of the hornless Qunari wind up in the Ben Hassrath, so culturally, Qunari associate not having horns with being imposing or scary. Saarebas have their horns cut as a warning, "This guy is dangerous." It's also the reason Tal Vashoth often cut off their own horns -- they think it makes them look tougher.

[Mary Kirby]

PinkysPain wrote...

Still curious ... is it the word you internally use to refer to the race?

No. We call them, "Qunari."

[David Gaider]

PinkysPain wrote...
That has to get awkward in your design documents when talking about their overseas ancestors :/

Why should it? Unless you think "Qunari ancestors" is somehow inherently confusing?

[David Gaider]

PinkysPain wrote...
No, but you can't help but feel you guys need a term to refer to the race which isn't so caught up with the religion of a small group of that race which happens to have crossed the seas  ... especially when you end up talking about that race from a bigger picture point of view.

At some point there are almost certainly going to be "Qunari" from across the sea which aren't Qunari ...

If we ever feel the need to introduce "Qunari from across the sea", then they'll likely be called something else entirely.

As Mary mentioned, "Qunari" refers to the creatures with horns-- and 95% of the time, that would be correct. If we feel the need to specify, "Qunari elf" or "Qunari dwarf" or even "Tal'Vashoth" would be fine.

But if you want to keep using "kossith", then knock yourselves out. Just don't expect that anyone else knows what you're talking about or that we'll agree that it works in the same fashion as "human" or "elf", or use it in any fashion ourselves-- or even feel the need to distinguish the two terms.

[David Gaider]

StarcloudSWG wrote...
The fact that the developers have not given the race a name shows an odd gap in their otherwise excellent understanding of culture, society, and historical development.

There is no gap. The collective name is qunari. They're synonymous.

We have no difficulty with it. The only difficulty seems to be people here on the forums who are trying very hard to have difficulty with it. You can say that's a gap in our lore if you wish, but I call BS.

[David Gaider]

Lucia69 wrote...
The difficulty stems from the fact that when we're first introduced to the word 'qunari', we thought it designated the race specifically. Then we learnt that it refers to all the followers of the Qun, including humans and elves, so now it seems to us (in my opinion) like we need another term to talk exclusively about the race. That's why you see the word Kossith tossed around so much, to fill in the blank.

Oh, I understand why. But you don't need another term. That's what we've said-- repeatedly.

Someone says "well, what do you call them in your documents?" Qunari. "No, what do you call the horned people, the race?" Qunari. "And the followers of the Qun?" Qunari... or, alternatively, 'followers of the Qun'. "But what about the horned people who aren't followers of the Qun?" Tal'Vashoth. "All of them?" Yes. "But that's what they call themselves... what do we call them both as a group?" Qunari. "But that's confusing!" Err... no. No, it's really not. Not unless you're trying to be pedantic.

Which, clearly some people really are. So... whatever? Call them floating cheese wheels, if that makes you happy. We'll just be referring to them in-game by their proper names. Don't know how we went from us saying "that's not an accurate term" to "OMG the writers get angry whenever it's mentioned! It's forbidden!" Kind of regret ever mentioning their former name at all, now.

Modifié par David Gaider, 16 novembre 2012 - 02:12 .

[Allan Schumacher]

What seems weird to me is worrying about hurting qunari feelings with what we say on these fora...

The issue I have with it is more when people get self-righteous and decide to talk down to people for not using the term kossith to describe the Qunari.

[Allan Schumacher]

Filament wrote...
The devs keep mentioning this but I don't think I've ever seen this happen, and I daresay I spend more time on these forums than a lot of devs, sadly.

I have noticed it a few times.  It's rarely "OMG YOU ARE STUPID" level of crazy, but rather more along the lines of the smug, monocle wearing type of "Excuse me sir, I do believe the term you should be using is Kossith, not Qunari.  Fortunately my refined edumication is here to ensure such errors do not occur in the future.  Cheerio lads."

Depending on how it's worded, it comes across crass and maybe borderline elitist (in the sense of "oh look at me, I am so well versed in the setting.  This is a display of my status and understanding).