407 réponses à ce sujet

[PinkysPain]

The devs repeatedly have expressed their displeasure about the community embracing the term Kossith ... saying it's aking to using the term ****** Sapiens to refer to humans from Boston for instance. The devs pretend we should use the term Qunari, but that's ludicrous ... we don't say "Catholics from Boston" to refer to all humans in Boston either. Qunari are the proponents of a multiracial religion, it's a near useless term to refer to a race ... I can only assume the devs are being disingenious.

The only reasonable explanation to me seems that the devs internally subdivide Kossith beyond just Qunari and Tal-vashoth ... but they refuse to use the same terminology when communicating with us because they don't want to give too much away from the future direction of the game (presumably the Qunari Kossith fled some greater Kossith empire with different beliefs which is yet to make it's introduction).

I wish they would stop telling us to use the name for a religion to refer to a race though ...

[Heimdall]

I have never heard the devs doing what you describe.

[PinkysPain]

"It drives me nuts when people use "Kossith" to refer to Qunari and Tal-vashoth. It's like using "****** Sapien" just for people from Boston."

From https://twitter.com/...967860423610368

The dev posts in the Kossith romance thread are another good example.

There is also a post which I can't immediately find at the moment where they expressed surprise (and reading between the lines not pleasant) that the Kossith term was known to us (it was leaked through the strategy guide).

[Wissenschaft]

The only compaint to using the term Kossith I can think of is from Mr. Gaider and all he was saying is the Kossith is barely mentioned anywhere so its odd people use it.

It could be that they don't plan on using the term Kossith much if ever in game. Which would then make it very odd to refer to Qunari as Kossith on the forums.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:36 .

[PinkysPain]

It's no odder than us using the term human to refer to the human race ... it would be odder to use the term Qunari just because the people of Thedas think it refers to a race, when from our point of view we know that multiple races follow Qun and there are non Qunari Kossith as well (Tal-vashoth just that we know off).

We are not people of Thedas, how rare the term is IC is entirely irrelevant, we use it because we "need" it to communicate effectively OOC. I don't believe the devs do any differently either, which is why it ended up in the strategy guide.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 11 novembre 2012 - 06:42 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Wissenschaft wrote...

The only compaint to using the term Kossith I can think of is from Mr. Gaider and all he was saying is the Kossith is barely mentioned anywhere so its odd people use it.

I think the degree to which Kossith was embraced by the forum is a very positive sign of people finding not just the Qunari faction interesting but the Kossith race interesting.  It also kind of shows how the dwarves and elves haven't been handled as well--people are not nearly as careful about their handling of the term "Dalish", for instance.

[TheJediSaint]

The "Kossith" are a fantasy race that are neither elves or dwarves. That's why people have embraced them.

[Heimdall]

I can only imagine it is because the term has more meaning behind it than we know then.

[David Gaider]

What I don't like is people referring to "Kossith" as if it's a term that everyone should know-- as opposed to something that's been barely mentioned in-game. People also use it incorrectly, using Kossith when what they actually mean is Tal-Vashoth.

It's also not a term the Qunari would use themselves. If you want to refer to the horned race, it's Qunari. Members of their religion who are not also part of the horned race are generally called Viddathari. If you really want to say "Kossith", that's up to you-- we can hardly stop you, and I've no idea why you'd care about what we think-- but it's a little annoying when people roll out "Kossith" first, when everyone would know what they're talking about if they just said "Qunari".

[Potato Cat]

The term "Qunari" refers to the followers of the Qun, a philosophy. The Kossith are the (usually) horned giants of the north. Koslun was a Kossith who invented the Qun and started the Qunari movement. However, when one joins the Qunari, they cease to be known as Kossith, Elves or Humans in their eyes and identify themselves as Qunari, and while their race can contribute to their assigned role, (Kossith make poor spies in Human-dominated areas for instance as they stick out like sore thumbs, so Humans and Elves are better suited), and breeding partners, it matters little. Even Tal-Vashoth don't seem to claim their Kossith-ness or whatever, and still identify themselves as just rebels of the Qun.

I think we embrace the term Kossith because they are totally unique to Dragon Age and because when we desire a Kossith race option for the PC, we want the devs to be sure we don't mean JUST Qunari or Tal-Vashoth while the devs want to paint the Qunari as the collectivist society they are. But that's just my interpretation, I don't know if the devs are doing it for other reasons.

[xsdob]

Wow, an actual answer.

So the "kossith" pretty much abandonded their races old name in favor of the term qunari. Qunari outside the species are viddathari, and those who don't follow the qun are tal-vashoth or just regular vashoth.

Thanks for the answers.

[TheJediSaint]

David Gaider wrote...

What I don't like is people referring to "Kossith" as if it's a term that everyone should know-- as opposed to something that's been barely mentioned in-game. People also use it incorrectly, using Kossith when what they actually mean is Tal-Vashoth.

It's also not a term the Qunari would use themselves. If you want to refer to the horned race, it's Qunari. Members of their religion who are not also part of the horned race are generally called Viddathari. If you really want to say "Kossith", that's up to you-- we can hardly stop you, and I've no idea why you'd care about what we think-- but it's a little annoying when people roll out "Kossith" first, when everyone would know what they're talking about if they just said "Qunari".

I prefer to think of them as horn-headed killjoys myself.

Edit: Thanks for the feedback!

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 11 novembre 2012 - 07:22 .

[thats1evildude]

I just use "Kossith" because non-horned giants who have always strongly insist that they be referred to as "Qunari."

[PsychoBlonde]

David Gaider wrote...
 Members of their religion who are not also part of the horned race are generally called Viddathari. 

The way this term was used in-game led me to believe that viddathari meant voluntary converts (like Shamus or the elven brothers) who were still learning the Qun, as opposed to conquered or neutral people who were in the process of being converted en masse.  Those seem to be called kabethari.  Qunari seemed to be reserved for full-blown converts who were integrated into Qunari society (like Tallis) or for people who were born into it.  Everybody else is bas.  Some very few bas seem to be bas'alit'an.

I kind of like it that the terms usually aren't explicitly explained, though.  More fun for us.

[David Gaider]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
The way this term was used in-game led me to believe that viddathari meant voluntary converts (like Shamus or the elven brothers) who were still learning the Qun, as opposed to conquered or neutral people who were in the process of being converted en masse.  Those seem to be called kabethari.  Qunari seemed to be reserved for full-blown converts who were integrated into Qunari society (like Tallis) or for people who were born into it.

This is correct. All Kabethari will become Viddathari eventually, unless they resist and are turned into mindless workers.

Viddathari will always think of themselves as Qunari, but others will continue to maintain that distinction. So if you're looking for a term to refer to them by, that would be correct. If you're afraid that, by using the term Qunari, you're going to confuse someone who thinks you're referring to the likes of Tallis, I can assure you you're going to confuse far less people than by using "Kossith" (which, as I said, is also sometimes used incorrectly and-- more annoying-- sometimes has people chiding others for not knowing a term which is only brought up in a few codex entries).

[Medhia Nox]

Gonna blame your team on that one Mr. Gaider - people are Lore-****s - it's easier than being a real historian.

Your world is interesting - and people love "owning" it by being snobs about terminology.

Solution? Less interesting gaming worlds.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 11 novembre 2012 - 07:44 .

[PinkysPain]

David Gaider wrote...

What I don't like is people referring to "Kossith" as if it's a term that everyone should know-- as opposed to something that's been barely mentioned in-game.

It's not mentioned in game at all, it's a term you used internally and which was leaked This much we know, the extent to which you actually use the term internally we don't ... but I can make a good guess based on how awkward it gets using Qunari to refer to a race.

People also use it incorrectly, using Kossith when what they actually mean is Tal-Vashoth.

Not really, in the romance thread we just used it to refer to the horned race in general ... we didn't really care if they were Qunari or Tal-vashoth ... or even a recently stranded specimen from across the sea belonging to neither groups.

If you want to refer to the horned race, it's Qunari.

So Tal-vashoth are Qunari? (Not were, are.)

when everyone would know what they're talking about if they just said "Qunari".

Except not, lets take the romance thread ... if we had said Qunari everyone would indeed have indeed assumed we meant horned Qunari, but they would not have assumed we also meant Tal-vashoth. We would have to had to have said "Qunari or Tal-vashoth" ... hardly efficient.

Of course that only works in that context, in a lot of other contexts if we wanted to clearly identify the race we would have to say "horned Qunari and Tal-vashoth". That's even less efficient. Clearly a good name to refer to the race in general which is not overloaded with the religion with which only a fraction of the race is associated is useful, especially once the rest of the race from across the sea gets introduced. If those are called X we will end up having to say "horned Qunari, Tal-vashoth and X". This doesn't work well ... so we're going to keep using Kossith probably.

Almost certainly you internally use a seperate term to refer to the race as well ... and it's probably Kossith as well ...

Modifié par PinkysPain, 11 novembre 2012 - 07:59 .

[PsychoBlonde]

David Gaider wrote...

Viddathari will always think of themselves as Qunari, but others will continue to maintain that distinction. 

Plus there are a lot of subtleties involved in the use of these terms, no doubt.  For instance, if Tallis had said "I'm a Viddathari" to Hawke, Hawke's response very likely would have been "whut?", and Tallis was probably savvy enough to know that.  If you were to meet someone who described themselves as Viddathari to bas, it'd mean either that they were a pedant or they were intentionally being honest without being generally informative.

No doubt at least some of the born-to-it Qunari see themselves as better than Viddathari (in that condescending Qunari way) so they're careful about the distinction.  And, of course, Qunari tend to be precise in their use of language because mostly they don't give a **** whether bas understand them or not. 

[GloriousDame]

David Gaider wrote...

What I don't like is people referring to "Kossith" as if it's a term that everyone should know-- as opposed to something that's been barely mentioned in-game. People also use it incorrectly, using Kossith when what they actually mean is Tal-Vashoth.

It's also not a term the Qunari would use themselves. If you want to refer to the horned race, it's Qunari. Members of their religion who are not also part of the horned race are generally called Viddathari. If you really want to say "Kossith", that's up to you-- we can hardly stop you, and I've no idea why you'd care about what we think-- but it's a little annoying when people roll out "Kossith" first, when everyone would know what they're talking about if they just said "Qunari".

I understand your reaction, I really do... 
That being said, I'm a little confused as to what we should call "Qunari" who have left the Qun and no longer consider themselves Qunari.

While "the Tal-Vashoth are former Qunari " (DA wiki), it seems like the terms Tal-Vashoth and Qunari are not representative terms for their horned race. I also understand that everyone would know what we meant when we said Qunari, but it still bothers me to call those horned giants who are no longer part of the Qun (even the Arishok says they are not Qunari) "Qunari"... It is just safe to assume there is no adequate term for their race?

Modifié par ArinTheirinCousland, 11 novembre 2012 - 08:00 .

[PinkysPain]

ArinTheirinCousland wrote...
It is just safe to assume there is no adequate term for their race?

From a non Bioware point of view we have an adequate term ... they just don't like us using it.

[PsychoBlonde]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Gonna blame your team on that one Mr. Gaider - people are Lore-****s - it's easier than being a real historian.

Real history is usually presented in the most boring manner imaginable.  That, and it's so enormous nobody can master it.  This is one reason why I like Rafael Sabatini--he's both an entertaining author AND a real historian.

[Fredward]

Wow this isn't pedantic at all.

[Navasha]

My guess is that part of the confusion stems from our "human" need to assign names to things. The Qunari don't have that need. They have no names for individuals. Their roles and their titles are their names. Kossith might simply be a name. It helps us humans distinguish what meaning we are intending, but it isn't a term that would exist for Qunari.

They see everything very black and white. There are Qunari and "not" Qunari. Whether they share a genetic similarity or not. If they are not followers of the Qun, then they are the same as an animal. Just because the Tal-Vashoth have rejected the Qun, doesn't mean they suddenly start thinking like humans and needing to name their "race". They are "Not Qunari" and that is probably enough for them.

Just my two cents... Its been quite a while since I last played DA2, so don't flame me too much if any of that sounds inaccurate.

Modifié par Navasha, 11 novembre 2012 - 08:54 .

[Wulfram]

Tal-Vashoth is, as I understand it, only appropriate for ex-Qunari who actively fight the Qunari. And only really appropriate to them if they're still prepared to accept the role the Qun assigns to rebels. It wouldn't be an appropriate term for the ex-Qunari who decided to call himself "Bob" and work on a farm somewhere. Vashoth would be correct from a Qunari perspective, I guess, but it seems like calling someone that would be equivalent to calling a former christian an "apostate" or "heretic".

And saying something like "non-viddithari Qunari" because you wanted to specifically talk about the guys with horns seems awkward and probably not very accessible to the average fan anyway.

Plus there's how you'd call the horned people before they were converted to the Qun. Or how you'd call one of those people who had never been raised in the Qun.

edit:  The point that Kossith shouldn't be used without explanation is of course valid.  But it's too useful a word to forget.

Modifié par Wulfram, 11 novembre 2012 - 09:22 .

[Firky]

Yay. Niggly qunari lore.

But, not being qunari; us, is it just logical to find and grab a name for horned things outside of the Qun; kossith? To me, anyway, Tal Vashoth and such are loaded terms that I don't really understand, as an outsider. I think of kossith as a physical descriptor, primarily, like, "elf." Of course, when you say, "elf" you bring a general understanding of their history/plight etc, and you could still be talking about a city elf or dalish elf. Like, to the reasonable outsider's perspective, a qunari "kossith" or non-qunari "kossith."

(I don't think I've used kossith much on the forum, regardless. )

I'm trying to think of how humans/elves etc refer to the "big horned race" in the game, but I'm coming up short. I guess people in Kirkwall have a more sophisticated understanding of the Qun. In Ferelden, everyone assumed Sten was qunari, maybe. (Although, he was.)

Modifié par Firky, 11 novembre 2012 - 09:26 .