407 réponses à ce sujet

[Henioo]

I really don't see where the confusion comes from. It's really not that hard to understand.

The giants' race is qunari. Their religion is the Qun. There are qunari who follow the Qun, and there are qunari who don't. They are still all qunari, but those who still follow the Qun would like to think otherwise, and thus they came up with a slur for them, and say that they abandoned their race.

During the World War 2, the traitors who worked with the Germans against their countrymen also got various nicknames, and the loyal citizens considered them not to be their countrymen - but they still were. Tal-vashoth are like that.

All the confusion comes from the misuse of the term in the guide (who gave the authors the term, anyway?) and the MotA. Tallis should have never been refered to as Qunari. If she was simply called a viddathari, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

And it would work as a better explanation for a woman following the Qun fighting.

Modifié par Henioo, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:16 .

[PinkysPain]

David Gaider wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...
That has to get awkward in your design documents when talking about their overseas ancestors :/

Why should it? Unless you think "Qunari ancestors" is somehow inherently confusing?

No, but you can't help but feel you guys need a term to refer to the race which isn't so caught up with the religion of a small group of that race which happens to have crossed the seas  ... especially when you end up talking about that race from a bigger picture point of view.

At some point there are almost certainly going to be "Qunari" from across the sea which aren't Qunari ...

It drives me nuts when people use "Kossith" to refer to Qunari and Tal-vashoth. It's like using "****** Sapien" just for people from Boston.

We only know the equivalent from the people from Boston it seems

Modifié par PinkysPain, 13 novembre 2012 - 10:54 .

[Wissenschaft]

The Qunari view the Qun as the ultimate expression of their race hence anyone not part of the Qun have abandoned their race. With such a mind set they have no use for any other word for their race except Qunari and a word for those that have abandoned their race, Tal Vashoth.

[David Gaider]

PinkysPain wrote...
No, but you can't help but feel you guys need a term to refer to the race which isn't so caught up with the religion of a small group of that race which happens to have crossed the seas  ... especially when you end up talking about that race from a bigger picture point of view.

At some point there are almost certainly going to be "Qunari" from across the sea which aren't Qunari ...

If we ever feel the need to introduce "Qunari from across the sea", then they'll likely be called something else entirely.

As Mary mentioned, "Qunari" refers to the creatures with horns-- and 95% of the time, that would be correct. If we feel the need to specify, "Qunari elf" or "Qunari dwarf" or even "Tal'Vashoth" would be fine.

But if you want to keep using "kossith", then knock yourselves out. Just don't expect that anyone else knows what you're talking about or that we'll agree that it works in the same fashion as "human" or "elf", or use it in any fashion ourselves-- or even feel the need to distinguish the two terms.

[Firky]

Doesn't terminology (and perception) of the qunari just boil down to ... ?

1. The insiders' perspective. (The designers who know all the lore because they made it.)
2. The qunari perspective. (How they classify themselves.)
3. Other people in Thedas' perspective of them. ("Qunari" as a blanket definition for race and religion makes sense to them, in context.)
4. The outsiders perspective. (The player's inclination to classify stuff according to concepts that make sense outside of the game, like "race" and religion not implying sameness in the real world, these days, to a large degree.)

To my mind, there's a natural inclination for the player to need to find and use a word like, "kossith" to make the distinction, but the game/lore really just needs to frame the other three. (And, part of what I love about Sten etc is that they are confusing and unknowable. Deciphering the Thedas perspective is the fun part.)

(I love this thread. Thanks to devs for clarification.)

[Swagger7]

I vote that we combine the two words to reach a consensus.  How does Qunossithari sound? 

[Josielyn]

I like the name that someone else came up with on this forum because it made me laugh so hard: the "Hornies". But then, you could be referring to all of Thedas, the way these forums sound! ;-)

[Foolsfolly]

David Gaider wrote...

What I don't like is people referring to "Kossith" as if it's a term that everyone should know-- as opposed to something that's been barely mentioned in-game. People also use it incorrectly, using Kossith when what they actually mean is Tal-Vashoth.

It's also not a term the Qunari would use themselves. If you want to refer to the horned race, it's Qunari. Members of their religion who are not also part of the horned race are generally called Viddathari. If you really want to say "Kossith", that's up to you-- we can hardly stop you, and I've no idea why you'd care about what we think-- but it's a little annoying when people roll out "Kossith" first, when everyone would know what they're talking about if they just said "Qunari".

So even if an elf rose rather high in the qunari society they'd still be known as Viddathari? Well that's rather exclusionary...

...wait, this is the qunari.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 14 novembre 2012 - 08:12 .

[rapscallioness]

I think of Kossith as the big grey ppl w/, or w/out horns.

I think of Qunari as a religion/philosophy that can be embraced by any race.

What I'm getting from Mary is that Kossith is, or was, a cultural term. Not an ethnic term. So, in that way it's being used incorrectly.

........so, they'd prefer we say Qunari/Qunari Elf/Qunari Dwarf/ Qunari human.

.__.

[CuriousArtemis]

Well there has to be a term to refer to the species. Because they are not human or elven or dwarven or equids or mustelids. They are ... something. I'm not talking about in-game terms. I mean from the writer's perspective (or "writers'" in this case).

I don't think the earlier comparison someone made to Jewish folks works because Jewish people are still human.

I mean, an asari is an asari, not a human. I guess qunari are... qunari. And their religion is the Qun. Which would be like humans inventing a religion and calling it the Hum lol

[Todd23]

... Nope. I'm sticking with Kossith. It seems more accurate to me.

[Foolsfolly]

Todd23 wrote...

... Nope. I'm sticking with Kossith. It seems more accurate to me.

Even when the lead writer tells you it's not accurate? Even when no character in two games, an exansion, and too many DLCs for me to count right now says it? Even when we've spoken to qunari and Tal'Valosth who've never identified themselves as kossith?

I mean the only place it's even mentioned on are fan-boards and the the DA wiki. Which tells anyone looking that it's mostly a fan-driven excerise and has nothing to do with the actual product or the creators.

Which means its a term used by the fans and in fan-fiction. I mean it's damn near fanon more than canon.

And I'm google searching "codex kossith" "qun codex" "qunari codex" and I'm coming up with nothing. Where is this term even used in-game?

[StarcloudSWG]

David Gaider wrote...

If we ever feel the need to introduce "Qunari from across the sea", then they'll likely be called something else entirely.

As Mary mentioned, "Qunari" refers to the creatures with horns-- and 95% of the time, that would be correct. If we feel the need to specify, "Qunari elf" or "Qunari dwarf" or even "Tal'Vashoth" would be fine.

But if you want to keep using "kossith", then knock yourselves out. Just don't expect that anyone else knows what you're talking about or that we'll agree that it works in the same fashion as "human" or "elf", or use it in any fashion ourselves-- or even feel the need to distinguish the two terms.

Humans have a name for our own race. EVEN THOUGH there are NO other sapient races on our planet. So why wouldn't the 'grey horned and hornless race with the extensive civilization' have a name separate from the beliefs they follow? Something *other than* Qunari.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 14 novembre 2012 - 09:13 .

[Wulfram]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Humans have a name for our own race. EVEN THOUGH there are NO other sapient races on our planet. So why wouldn't the 'grey horned and hornless race with the extensive civilization' have a name separate from the beliefs they follow? Something *other than* Qunari.

Because they're crazy brainwashed cultists who make a point of erasing all self identity except their role in serving the crazy cult.

Though this doesn't stop Sten being a racist bastard about elves for some reason.

[Foolsfolly]

Wulfram wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Humans have a name for our own race. EVEN THOUGH there are NO other sapient races on our planet. So why wouldn't the 'grey horned and hornless race with the extensive civilization' have a name separate from the beliefs they follow? Something *other than* Qunari.

Because they're crazy brainwashed cultists who make a point of erasing all self identity except their role in serving the crazy cult.

Though this doesn't stop Sten being a racist bastard about elves for some reason.

What? The 'lithe people who excell at poverty' line?

Wasn't that just a joke for the Warden? I mean there's no such thing as poverty in the qun. It'd be a concept Sten only knew about from his travels. So it's more about poking fun at non-qunari societies.

Right?

I mean there are racists in Origins but I never considered Sten one.... although he might be against humans like Shale is. Can't say I've ever thought about this before.

[WhiteThunder]

I think Sten was just having a laugh

And he's not even racist against humans, as long as they follow the Qun.

[Wulfram]

Pretty sure I remember some other comments along those lines, but I may have hallucinated them.

[Todd23]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Todd23 wrote...

... Nope. I'm sticking with Kossith. It seems more accurate to me.

Even when the lead writer tells you it's not accurate? Even when no character in two games, an exansion, and too many DLCs for me to count right now says it? Even when we've spoken to qunari and Tal'Valosth who've never identified themselves as kossith?

I mean the only place it's even mentioned on are fan-boards and the the DA wiki. Which tells anyone looking that it's mostly a fan-driven excerise and has nothing to do with the actual product or the creators.

Which means its a term used by the fans and in fan-fiction. I mean it's damn near fanon more than canon.

And I'm google searching "codex kossith" "qun codex" "qunari codex" and I'm coming up with nothing. Where is this term even used in-game?

Yes.

[Sajuro]

-still gonna call them qunari, like a boss-

[KainD]

Guys why not just use a word Tal-vashoth? Tal-vashoth are members of the horned race that don't follow the Qun. No?

[StarcloudSWG]

KainD wrote...

Guys why not just use a word Tal-vashoth? Tal-vashoth are members of the horned race that don't follow the Qun. No?

No. Tal-Vashoth are those who not only do not follow the Qun, they deliberately attack those who do follow the Qun.

[Todd23]

KainD wrote...

Guys why not just use a word Tal-vashoth? Tal-vashoth are members of the horned race that don't follow the Qun. No?

Because when I'm talking about both them and the qunari, I want to be clear that I'm talking about the race in general.  If I have something to say about the religion or someone in the religion.  Then I'll say Qunari.

[Zardoc]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Todd23 wrote...

... Nope. I'm sticking with Kossith. It seems more accurate to me.

Even when the lead writer tells you it's not accurate? Even when no character in two games, an exansion, and too many DLCs for me to count right now says it? Even when we've spoken to qunari and Tal'Valosth who've never identified themselves as kossith?

I mean the only place it's even mentioned on are fan-boards and the the DA wiki. Which tells anyone looking that it's mostly a fan-driven excerise and has nothing to do with the actual product or the creators.

Which means its a term used by the fans and in fan-fiction. I mean it's damn near fanon more than canon.

And I'm google searching "codex kossith" "qun codex" "qunari codex" and I'm coming up with nothing. Where is this term even used in-game?

And the in-game DA Codex. And it doesn't matter whether the kossith who follow the qun don't call or see themselves as kossith, it still doesn't change the fact that they are, in fact, kossith.

Qun-Religion
Qunari-People who follow the qun
Kossith-the grey tall and big humanoids who invented the qun
Tal'Vashoth-kossith (and non-kossith) who left the qun who now fight it.

[Urzon]

Wulfram wrote...

Because they're crazy brainwashed cultists who make a point of erasing all self identity except their role in serving the crazy cult.

I'd have to agree with this, though i would have phrased it slightly more nicely. While I'm sure they use to have a name for their species in the pre-Kosslum days, they are conformed to the Qun's collectivism for so long; that something as segregating as race's name was no longer needed. Why would they care for something as trivial as a name: when you are you, and you are Qunari?

Putting a different name to something implies difference, and if there is one thing humans love/hate; it's being different. It's easier to pigeonhole people into different catagories then. This person has different hair. This person has different eyes. This person has different skin. This person thinks something different than I do.

The more differences between two people, makes it harder for them to connect to one another. As long as that difference remains, it's easier to fall into the cycle of: suspicion, fear, anger, and hatred.

The Qunari overcome this, somewhat, by recognizing that all people are equal, no matter how different. And long as they believe what the Qunari believe, you are one of them, no matter how different.

Modifié par Urzon, 15 novembre 2012 - 10:53 .