407 réponses à ce sujet

[snackrat]

Y'know, I think about all this business regarding the difference between 'kossith' and 'qunari' and which is right or wrong and when, and I think...
...people had been asking for a female qunari squadmate for a loooooong time.
...and then they got Tallis.

See, why I would never accuse Bioware of actually MOCKING us directly, it did feel a little like being baited. Like someone somewhere was thinking "ahh, but they never specified a KOSSITH qunari, muahaha."

I confess I rather took it as a sort of sly joke, coupled with the lesson to be more careful with our wording. That is, maybe we SHOULD have specified kossith. Although if we don't use 'the K word', we could have just said 'we want horny qunari' and just looking at the romance threads shows how quickly that would backfire.

[WhiteThunder]

Zardoc wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Todd23 wrote...

... Nope. I'm sticking with Kossith. It seems more accurate to me.

Even when the lead writer tells you it's not accurate? Even when no character in two games, an exansion, and too many DLCs for me to count right now says it? Even when we've spoken to qunari and Tal'Valosth who've never identified themselves as kossith?

I mean the only place it's even mentioned on are fan-boards and the the DA wiki. Which tells anyone looking that it's mostly a fan-driven excerise and has nothing to do with the actual product or the creators.

Which means its a term used by the fans and in fan-fiction. I mean it's damn near fanon more than canon.

And I'm google searching "codex kossith" "qun codex" "qunari codex" and I'm coming up with nothing. Where is this term even used in-game?

And the in-game DA Codex. And it doesn't matter whether the kossith who follow the qun don't call or see themselves as kossith, it still doesn't change the fact that they are, in fact, kossith.

Qun-Religion
Qunari-People who follow the qun
Kossith-the grey tall and big humanoids who invented the qun
Tal'Vashoth-kossith (and non-kossith) who left the qun who now fight it.

It's not in the in-game DA Codex.  And the writers just explained that "Kossith" refers to their ancient culture, not to their race, and has nothing to do with their race.  The writers just told us that they are not, in fact, kossith, so it's a little odd that you are insisting to the contrary.

[StarcloudSWG]

Urzon wrote...

I'd have to agree with this, though i would have phrased it slightly more nicely. While I'm sure they use to have a name for their species in the pre-Kosslum days, they are conformed to the Qun's collectivism for so long; that something as segregating as race's name was no longer needed. Why would they care for something as trivial as a name: when you are you, and you are Qunari?

Putting a different name to something implies difference, and if there is one thing humans love/hate; it's being different. It's easier to pigeonhole people into different catagories then. This person has different hair. This person has different eyes. This person has different skin. This person thinks something different than I do.

The more differences between two people, makes it harder for them to connect to one another. As long as that difference remains, it's easier to fall into the cycle of: suspicion, fear, anger, and hatred.

The Qunari overcome this, somewhat, by recognizing that all people are equal, no matter how different. And long as they believe what the Qunari believe, you are one of them, no matter how different.

Yes, but we're not talking about an in-game reference, exactly. We're asking for the name of the race, the name that existed before Koslun established the Qun. The name of the tall, grey-skinned, horned and hornless, muscular race of beings. That is the name we're asking for, since the development team has decided that Qunari is a philosophy/religion.

We're asking for that name because it is an all-inclusive name. It covers Qunari, Tal-Vashoth, Vashoth, any member of that tall, grey-skinned, horned and hornless, muscular race.

The fact that the developers have not given the race a name shows an odd gap in their otherwise excellent understanding of culture, society, and historical development.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:19 .

[David Gaider]

StarcloudSWG wrote...
The fact that the developers have not given the race a name shows an odd gap in their otherwise excellent understanding of culture, society, and historical development.

There is no gap. The collective name is qunari. They're synonymous.

We have no difficulty with it. The only difficulty seems to be people here on the forums who are trying very hard to have difficulty with it. You can say that's a gap in our lore if you wish, but I call BS.

[Sylvianus]

David Gaider wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...
The fact that the developers have not given the race a name shows an odd gap in their otherwise excellent understanding of culture, society, and historical development.

There is no gap. The collective name is qunari. They're synonymous.

We have no difficulty with it. The only difficulty seems to be people here on the forums who are trying very hard to have difficulty with it. You can say that's a gap in our lore if you wish, but I call BS.

Agreed. This is what I feel.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 15 novembre 2012 - 09:05 .

[KainD]

David Gaider wrote...

There is no gap. The collective name is qunari. They're synonymous.

We have no difficulty with it. The only difficulty seems to be people here on the forums who are trying very hard to have difficulty with it. You can say that's a gap in our lore if you wish, but I call BS.

I just don't understand. How is it comfortable naming 2 different things with one word. It's like if word "humans" was replaced with word say "christians", which would mean BOTH the religious followers of christianity AND the human race as a whole. And then people are left guessing from the context if you are talking about humans or christians. 

[AlexanderCousland]

So,

The name of their actual race is Kossith.

However, The Devs say use Qunari because thats what the people of Thedas commonly call them.

Got it.

I still wonder if The Horned Race, in general, are all Qunari from birth.

[Firky]

(Ninjad. This was vaguely a response to Kain.)

To the people in the world it doesn't matter, though. It's like saying "Bandaid" for all plastic strips you stick over a cut to prevent infection. (I'm Aussie. Does the rest of the world say Bandaid?) You say Bandaid but you know it might be a different brand or have kiddie pictures on it or be waterproof or specifically shaped to fit your thumb. But the distinction isn't important.

The distinction between qunari and someone of the big gray race is important to players because we're outsiders trying to understand the world.

(That's how I see it, anyways.)

Edit: Or maybe not that the distinction isn't important, as such. Like. Your employee of Elastoplast might find the distinction between Bandaids and Elastoplasts important, or they'd turn up at the wrong workplace. But, that "Bandaid" is just accepted usage for every type and everyone is used to that. (And to most people, it's not important.)

Modifié par Firky, 15 novembre 2012 - 09:23 .

[hoorayforicecream]

KainD wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

There is no gap. The collective name is qunari. They're synonymous.

We have no difficulty with it. The only difficulty seems to be people here on the forums who are trying very hard to have difficulty with it. You can say that's a gap in our lore if you wish, but I call BS.

I just don't understand. How is it comfortable naming 2 different things with one word. It's like if word "humans" was replaced with word say "christians", which would mean BOTH the religious followers of christianity AND the human race as a whole. And then people are left guessing from the context if you are talking about humans or christians. 

There are followers of Judaism who aren't ethnically Jewish, and there are ethnic Jews who are secular. Yet they are all collectively called Jewish.

[Wifflebottom]

Alright so:
-Qun: Religion/society created by Koslun
-Qunari: Anyone that adheres to the teachings of the Qun
-???: Grey skinned giants with horns
-Tal-Vashoth: Someone who stopped following the Qun
-Kossith: Ancient term for grey-skinned giants with horns that no one uses anymore

Humans, dwarves, and elves call the grey-skinned giants either Qunari or Tal-Vashoth always. There is no formal term used to collectively refer to the race of grey-skinned giants? Or is the collective name for all Qunari and Tal-vashoth that happen to be grey-skinned giants just Qunari? So does the term Qunari have two meanings: Follower of the Qun or any member of the race of grey-skinned giants?

Modifié par Wifflebottom, 15 novembre 2012 - 09:39 .

[mousestalker]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

KainD wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

There is no gap. The collective name is qunari. They're synonymous.

We have no difficulty with it. The only difficulty seems to be people here on the forums who are trying very hard to have difficulty with it. You can say that's a gap in our lore if you wish, but I call BS.

I just don't understand. How is it comfortable naming 2 different things with one word. It's like if word "humans" was replaced with word say "christians", which would mean BOTH the religious followers of christianity AND the human race as a whole. And then people are left guessing from the context if you are talking about humans or christians. 

There are followers of Judaism who aren't ethnically Jewish, and there are ethnic Jews who are secular. Yet they are all collectively called Jewish.

It gets even worse. There are people who are Jewish by heritage who are Buddhists or Christians (active practitioners of a religion that is not Judaism). There are even Englishmen who are women.

Modifié par mousestalker, 15 novembre 2012 - 09:43 .

[Monica21]

Mary Kirby wrote...
It's not a defect. It's a minor genetic variation. The equivalent would be closer to having naturally copper-red hair. The Qunari just say, "Oh, he's hornless," in the same way we'd say, "He's ginger." It's just an adjective, not a classification.

Wasn't Sten supposed to have horns but there wasn't time (or money or both) to create a new model for him? I think that just adds to the confusion. "Oh, well, let's just give him elf ears and call it good." Add that to the fact that there are no hornless Qunari in DA2 and that explanation seems hollow.

[Ibn_Shisha]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

KainD wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

There is no gap. The collective name is qunari. They're synonymous.

We have no difficulty with it. The only difficulty seems to be people here on the forums who are trying very hard to have difficulty with it. You can say that's a gap in our lore if you wish, but I call BS.

I just don't understand. How is it comfortable naming 2 different things with one word. It's like if word "humans" was replaced with word say "christians", which would mean BOTH the religious followers of christianity AND the human race as a whole. And then people are left guessing from the context if you are talking about humans or christians. 

There are followers of Judaism who aren't ethnically Jewish, and there are ethnic Jews who are secular. Yet they are all collectively called Jewish.

True, but there are also people of Arab ethnicity that are Christian.  I doubt they'd appreciate being called Muslim.

If this term is not meant to be used, when/where/why and how was it even introduced to the community?  Did the Wiki just make it up?

All in all, I find this entire thread strange.  Who cares what they're called, as long as we can annihilate the ugly ones in public duels and seduce the hot ones while raiding some moron's castle together...

[Monica21]

Ibn_Shisha wrote...
True, but there are also people of Arab ethnicity that are Christian.  I doubt they'd appreciate being called Muslim.

Well, no, but "Muslim" is not and has never been an ethnic identifier. It's always been a religious one. I think the  point the poster was making is that being "Jewish" can mean more than just practicing Judaism.

If this term is not meant to be used, when/where/why and how was it even introduced to the community?  Did the Wiki just make it up?

This is my question too. Kossith is apparently a little-known, little-used identifier within a very small group of Qunari. Why do we players even know this term? Also, why isn't there a DA Lore forum?

[Ibn_Shisha]

Monica21 wrote...

Ibn_Shisha wrote...
True, but there are also people of Arab ethnicity that are Christian.  I doubt they'd appreciate being called Muslim.

Well, no, but "Muslim" is not and has never been an ethnic identifier. It's always been a religious one. I think the  point the poster was making is that being "Jewish" can mean more than just practicing Judaism.

Obviously you've never met some of my relatives, or at least haven't heard their 'thoughts' about me going to the Middle East in college.:innocent:

[Rixatrix]

David Gaider wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...
The fact that the developers have not given the race a name shows an odd gap in their otherwise excellent understanding of culture, society, and historical development.

There is no gap. The collective name is qunari. They're synonymous.

We have no difficulty with it. The only difficulty seems to be people here on the forums who are trying very hard to have difficulty with it. You can say that's a gap in our lore if you wish, but I call BS.

I am really glad this subject was brought up.  I had been unsure of the distinctions, as I thought the correct term was just "qunari."  What bothered me more was the elitism with which I'd sometimes seen "kossith" used, as if people using "qunari" were uninformed.  Finally, that issue can be put to rest.

Modifié par BlueMoonSeraphim, 15 novembre 2012 - 11:01 .

[Monica21]

Ibn_Shisha wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Ibn_Shisha wrote...
True, but there are also people of Arab ethnicity that are Christian.  I doubt they'd appreciate being called Muslim.

Well, no, but "Muslim" is not and has never been an ethnic identifier. It's always been a religious one. I think the  point the poster was making is that being "Jewish" can mean more than just practicing Judaism.

Obviously you've never met some of my relatives, or at least haven't heard their 'thoughts' about me going to the Middle East in college.:innocent:

Just tell them that you're right because you read it on the internet.

[xsdob]

Why is it so hard for people to get that the qunari might have a different thought on what they are called than the divisionist thedesians do.

Let me give an example, the term american. Now, almost everyone who lives in america identifies themselves as american, right? Now tell me, if you went over to another country, would you stop calling yourself american and start calling yourself something else? Would you identify yourself by some name you made up as a way to distinguish yourself from people who are not vacationing outside of the united states? No, you would not.

What about when this was a british colony? Shouldn't we call those people british seperatist instead of americans, since the thought of this as a country was not introduced as of yet?

But we don't, the term american has become an indentifier for who we are, despite whatever background we may have.

Besides, there is already an in-game term for the horned people who are not part of the qun. It's called Vashoth, and the ones who become dedecated to living a life frowned upon by the qun are called Tal-Vashoth.

And those two terms were mentioned a hell of a lot more than "kossith" ever was.

[Monica21]

xsdob wrote...

Why is it so hard for people to get that the qunari might have a different thought on what they are called than the divisionist thedesians do.

Eh, I don't think that has anything to do with it. In gameplay and in the wiki it's confusing. You've got Cassandra saying that Qunari is a religion not a race, so then most people try to track down the race name for the big gray giants simply because they want to be accurate. Kossith has been floating around and it was presented as an encompassing term, until it got explained, literally, just yesterday.

What I don't understand is dev annoyance at using the term Kossith when they're the ones who put it out there and then used an incorrect (or at least misleading) in-game term for the big gray people.

[legbamel]

Ibn_Shisha wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

KainD wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
There is no gap. The collective name is qunari. They're synonymous.

We have no difficulty with it. The only difficulty seems to be people here on the forums who are trying very hard to have difficulty with it. You can say that's a gap in our lore if you wish, but I call BS.

I just don't understand. How is it comfortable naming 2 different things with one word. It's like if word "humans" was replaced with word say "christians", which would mean BOTH the religious followers of christianity AND the human race as a whole. And then people are left guessing from the context if you are talking about humans or christians.

There are followers of Judaism who aren't ethnically Jewish, and there are ethnic Jews who are secular. Yet they are all collectively called Jewish.

True, but there are also people of Arab ethnicity that are Christian.  I doubt they'd appreciate being called Muslim.

If this term is not meant to be used, when/where/why and how was it even introduced to the community?  Did the Wiki just make it up?

All in all, I find this entire thread strange.  Who cares what they're called, as long as we can annihilate the ugly ones in public duels and seduce the hot ones while raiding some moron's castle together...

Someone posted pages ago that they found it in a players' guide, added it to the wiki, and started "correcting" players on the BSN when they referred to the race as Qunari instead of Kossith.  Personally, I'm going to take the writers' collective word that the term is incorrect for referring to the race as a whole and not use it that way but apparently it's upsetting rather a lot of people who insist that there must be people racially similar who have never followed the Qun and to whom they must have a term to refer.

[xsdob]

Monica21 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Why is it so hard for people to get that the qunari might have a different thought on what they are called than the divisionist thedesians do.

Eh, I don't think that has anything to do with it. In gameplay and in the wiki it's confusing. You've got Cassandra saying that Qunari is a religion not a race, so then most people try to track down the race name for the big gray giants simply because they want to be accurate. Kossith has been floating around and it was presented as an encompassing term, until it got explained, literally, just yesterday.

What I don't understand is dev annoyance at using the term Kossith when they're the ones who put it out there and then used an incorrect (or at least misleading) in-game term for the big gray people.

Becasue kossith shows up only in a single DND style book. And the term "Vashoth" is in the games codex that states that it's what the none qun horned giants are called. Also this thread was around for like, a good 5 days now, and got answered in day 1.

Sometimes when someone adopts something as their new cultural identity so much, like the qunari have done with their religion, that they abandon and don't use their old cultural identifier at all anymore. It happens, probably a lot if the names of country's and what people identifty themselves as is any indication.

[saMoorai]

I don't care what they're called, I just want to seduce them.

[StarcloudSWG]

David Gaider wrote...

There is no gap. The collective name is qunari. They're synonymous.

We have no difficulty with it. The only difficulty seems to be people here on the forums who are trying very hard to have difficulty with it. You can say that's a gap in our lore if you wish, but I call BS.

So. There's Qunari qunari, Tal-Vashoth qunari, Vashoth qunari, and in the past, Kossith qunari.

Is that right? I wonder how you make the distinction in speech between Qunari and qunari.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 15 novembre 2012 - 11:27 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

It really comes down to this.

You have at least Sten and Tallis correcting you if you call Tal'Vashoth 'Qunari'. So certain NPCs are telling us we're wrong to call all grey-skinned giants qunari.

The devs say it's ok to call them all qunari for the sake of simplicity, which is fine, but some forumites want a more acceptable blanket term to use for the sake of being politically/literally correct, which is also fine.

What isn't fine is telling forumites off for using qunari as a blanket term and expecting them to know 'Kossith'. I haven't seen it myself, but if it's happening that's not on.

[Monica21]

xsdob wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Why is it so hard for people to get that the qunari might have a different thought on what they are called than the divisionist thedesians do.

Eh, I don't think that has anything to do with it. In gameplay and in the wiki it's confusing. You've got Cassandra saying that Qunari is a religion not a race, so then most people try to track down the race name for the big gray giants simply because they want to be accurate. Kossith has been floating around and it was presented as an encompassing term, until it got explained, literally, just yesterday.

What I don't understand is dev annoyance at using the term Kossith when they're the ones who put it out there and then used an incorrect (or at least misleading) in-game term for the big gray people.

Becasue kossith shows up only in a single DND style book. And the term "Vashoth" is in the games codex that states that it's what the none qun horned giants are called. Also this thread was around for like, a good 5 days now, and got answered in day 1.

Sometimes when someone adopts something as their new cultural identity so much, like the qunari have done with their religion, that they abandon and don't use their old cultural identifier at all anymore. It happens, probably a lot if the names of country's and what people identifty themselves as is any indication.

But how did the term get there? Unless it was just made up by the publishers it was given to them by the devs. And Vashoth, in-game, doesn't have the same meaning as Qunari. If that's the case, then people will be looking for a racial identifier because it's explicitly stated that Vashoth is not Qunari. So then what are they? Apparently they're still all called Qunari, but nobody knew that until this thread started.