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[xsdob]

Monica21 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Why is it so hard for people to get that the qunari might have a different thought on what they are called than the divisionist thedesians do.

Eh, I don't think that has anything to do with it. In gameplay and in the wiki it's confusing. You've got Cassandra saying that Qunari is a religion not a race, so then most people try to track down the race name for the big gray giants simply because they want to be accurate. Kossith has been floating around and it was presented as an encompassing term, until it got explained, literally, just yesterday.

What I don't understand is dev annoyance at using the term Kossith when they're the ones who put it out there and then used an incorrect (or at least misleading) in-game term for the big gray people.

Becasue kossith shows up only in a single DND style book. And the term "Vashoth" is in the games codex that states that it's what the none qun horned giants are called. Also this thread was around for like, a good 5 days now, and got answered in day 1.

Sometimes when someone adopts something as their new cultural identity so much, like the qunari have done with their religion, that they abandon and don't use their old cultural identifier at all anymore. It happens, probably a lot if the names of country's and what people identifty themselves as is any indication.

But how did the term get there? Unless it was just made up by the publishers it was given to them by the devs. And Vashoth, in-game, doesn't have the same meaning as Qunari. If that's the case, then people will be looking for a racial identifier because it's explicitly stated that Vashoth is not Qunari. So then what are they? Apparently they're still all called Qunari, but nobody knew that until this thread started.

How can it not mean the same thing? The horned giants tend to be grey, vashoth means "grey", showing that outside the qun, the qunari do not put much thought on any other factors than that. tal-vashoth means "true grey", showing the different mind set tal-vashoth have for themselves from  other qunari and horned giants who don't follow the qun.

The qunari do not consider the vashoth to be the same race anymore, since their religion is a much bigger identifier to them than their race is now.

[Sylvius the Mad]

If we use Qunari to refer to those formerly known as Kossith, how then should we refer collectively to all followers of the Qun?

I'm far more interested in being correct and precise than with being understood.

[Monica21]

[quote][quote]xsdob wrote...
Becasue kossith shows up only in a single DND style book. And the term "Vashoth" is in the games codex that states that it's what the none qun horned giants are called. Also this thread was around for like, a good 5 days now, and got answered in day 1.

Sometimes when someone adopts something as their new cultural identity so much, like the qunari have done with their religion, that they abandon and don't use their old cultural identifier at all anymore. It happens, probably a lot if the names of country's and what people identifty themselves as is any indication.[/quote]

[quote]
But how did the term get there? Unless it was just made up by the publishers it was given to them by the devs. And Vashoth, in-game, doesn't have the same meaning as Qunari. If that's the case, then people will be looking for a racial identifier because it's explicitly stated that Vashoth is not Qunari. So then what are they? Apparently they're still all called Qunari, but nobody knew that until this thread started.[/quote]

[quote]How can it not mean the same thing? The horned giants tend to be grey, vashoth means "grey", showing that outside the qun, the qunari do not put much thought on any other factors than that. tal-vashoth means "true grey", showing the different mind set tal-vashoth have for themselves from  other qunari and horned giants who don't follow the qun.

The qunari do not consider the vashoth to be the same race anymore, since their religion is a much bigger identifier to them than their race is now.
[/quote]

Didn't you just say they didn't mean the same thing? Unless I'm misreading the bolded part of what you posted.

In-game, Qunari is presented as followers of the Qun. Vashoth are not followers of the Qun. So, it stands to reason that there is a separate identifier for the race of horned giants. (Except that there isn't, which is fine.) All I'm saying is that the confusion is understandable, given that no one knew what Kossith actually meant and that, in-game, Qunari and Vashoth are presented strictly in terms of religion.

(My apologies for ****ing up the quote tags in an effort to avoid the quote pyramid.)

Modifié par Monica21, 15 novembre 2012 - 11:43 .

[Monica21]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If we use Qunari to refer to those formerly known as Kossith, how then should we refer collectively to all followers of the Qun?

I'm far more interested in being correct and precise than with being understood.

Still just Qunari.

[xsdob]

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

[quote][quote]xsdob wrote...
Becasue kossith shows up only in a single DND style book. And the term "Vashoth" is in the games codex that states that it's what the none qun horned giants are called. Also this thread was around for like, a good 5 days now, and got answered in day 1.

Sometimes when someone adopts something as their new cultural identity so much, like the qunari have done with their religion, that they abandon and don't use their old cultural identifier at all anymore. It happens, probably a lot if the names of country's and what people identifty themselves as is any indication.[/quote]

[quote]
But how did the term get there? Unless it was just made up by the publishers it was given to them by the devs. And Vashoth, in-game, doesn't have the same meaning as Qunari. If that's the case, then people will be looking for a racial identifier because it's explicitly stated that Vashoth is not Qunari. So then what are they? Apparently they're still all called Qunari, but nobody knew that until this thread started.[/quote]

[quote]How can it not mean the same thing? The horned giants tend to be grey, vashoth means "grey", showing that outside the qun, the qunari do not put much thought on any other factors than that. tal-vashoth means "true grey", showing the different mind set tal-vashoth have for themselves from  other qunari and horned giants who don't follow the qun.

The qunari do not consider the vashoth to be the same race anymore, since their religion is a much bigger identifier to them than their race is now.
[/quote]

Didn't you just say they didn't mean the same thing? Unless I'm misreading the bolded part of what you posted.

In-game, Qunari is presented as followers of the Qun. Vashoth are not followers of the Qun. So, it stands to reason that there is a separate identifier for the race of horned giants. (Except that there isn't, which is fine.) All I'm saying is that the confusion is understandable, given that no one knew what Kossith actually meant and that, in-game, Qunari and Vashoth are presented strictly in terms of religion.

(My apologies for ****ing up the quote tags in an effort to avoid the quote pyramid.)

[/quote]

The term vashoth is used only for those of the qunari race who do not follow the qun.

Everyone esle who doesn't follow is bas or basra, meaning literally "thing", they are not qunari, they do not follow the qun, and they are not from the qunari race. To them, they don't deserve much identification outside of that.

[Monica21]

Okay, last time: All I'm saying is that the confusion is understandable, given that no one knew what Kossith actually meant and that, in-game, Qunari and Vashoth are presented strictly in terms of religion.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Monica21 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If we use Qunari to refer to those formerly known as Kossith, how then should we refer collectively to all followers of the Qun?

I'm far more interested in being correct and precise than with being understood.

Still just Qunari.

No, that would be ambiguous.  That fails the precision test.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 16 novembre 2012 - 12:15 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

I understand that Kossith, when the Qunari use it, does not mean what forumites have been using it to mean. But that the Qunari use language imprecisely is no reason for us to do the same.

Wait, I remember now.  We already have a term for the large grey-skinned people.  Themor.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 16 novembre 2012 - 12:18 .

[Corker]

Back before DA2 came out and the word 'kossith' showed up, I called the grey-skinned tall people who may or may not follow the Qun "giants," especially after I got the "I am not a qunari" lecture from Armaas in Awakening. Several NPCs use it to refer to Sten, if I recall correctly.

It might qualify as a slur, I suppose, but from context all I could say for sure was that it was slang.

[Heimdall]

I'm confused, why do I distinctly remember Sten telling me something like "The Kossith were the ones that brought the Qun to this land"?

[Monica21]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If we use Qunari to refer to those formerly known as Kossith, how then should we refer collectively to all followers of the Qun?

I'm far more interested in being correct and precise than with being understood.

Still just Qunari.

No, that would be ambiguous.  That fails the precision test.

According to the developers, that's what they're called. It may not be precise enough, but it's correct.

[xsdob]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I'm confused, why do I distinctly remember Sten telling me something like "The Kossith were the ones that brought the Qun to this land"?

Do you got vid of it? Or a link?

I'm just asking becasue I don't remember that and It would be good to have some way of telling if that is the case or not.

[Corker]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I'm confused, why do I distinctly remember Sten telling me something like "The Kossith were the ones that brought the Qun to this land"?

This dialogue?  (From the toolset)


Warden: So what do you believe in, then?

Sten: When your people join us, you'll find out.

Warden: What do you mean?

Sten: Our ships will come to these shores. And the antaam will bring this land to the Qun.  I will... hope that I do not live to see that day. Pasharra, we should go on.

[CuriousArtemis]

My guess is either the writers have not developed a term for the species or they are keeping it from us for some particular reason (they want to reveal it at a later date or in a game).

Alternatively, they could have always been "qunari" (using the term here in the same sense that Fenris is an "elf" and Alistair is a "human"). And then for some reason named their religion after their species name.

[Wissenschaft]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If we use Qunari to refer to those formerly known as Kossith, how then should we refer collectively to all followers of the Qun?

I'm far more interested in being correct and precise than with being understood.

Still just Qunari.

No, that would be ambiguous.  That fails the precision test.

 

Language is naturally ambiguous. This problem is solved with a little thing called context.

[Heimdall]

This dialogue?  (From the toolset)


Warden: So what do you believe in, then?

Sten: When your people join us, you'll find out.

Warden: What do you mean?

Sten: Our ships will come to these shores. And the antaam will bring this land to the Qun.  I will... hope that I do not live to see that day. Pasharra, we should go on

No, I'm pretty sure it was a conversation were Sten was explaining the distinction between Qunari, Tal Vashoth, and non-giant Qunari.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 16 novembre 2012 - 01:18 .

[Corker]

I just ran through Sten's main dialogue tree and the ones relating to his personal quest and didn't see 'kossith' once. I did find several mentions of 'giant,' all used by rather rough characters. The Revered Mother in Lothering only refers to him as 'qunari' or 'creature, for what that's worth.

Speaking to the scavenger at Lake Calenhad docks:
Scavenger: I knew the guy who was here before me. Sold me this spot. Said he'd found giants and all kinds of crazy valuables.

Speaking to merchant Faeryn in the Frostbacks
Warden: Did you happen to find a qunari sword?
Faeryn: Qunari? I'm afraid I don't know the word. (no VA notes)
Warden: Bronze-skinned giants/The people you looted by Lake Calenhad.
Faeryn: Oh, them! Well, I have a few shields here. I had one sword, but I sold it already.
Warden: Who did you sell it to?
Faeryn: A dwarf. He lives in Redcliffe. His name is Dwynn, I think. I don't want any trouble. If you see that giant, tell him I don't have it, would you? I don't, I swear.


IF (Sten in party)
Faeryn: Step right... Maker's Breath! I, ah, beg your pardon, friend, you, ah, startled me.
Warden: We're looking for a qunari sword.
Faeryn: Kyon-what? I'm sorry, I... ah... I don't know what that -

Speaking to Dwynn in Redcliffe
Sten: Surrender the blade before I lose my patience, dwarf.
Dwynn: So it's your sword? Faeryn didn't mention he took it off a live giant.

[Kail Ashton]

I know "reality check" means little here but, you're debating over the proper term of what to call a fictional race of giant horned creatures

.......call them sphagetti-o's for all anyone cares, they don't exist outside of one series of fiction, it doesn't require a philosophical debate, good grief you people could be doing some thing more productive in real life, like cure'n cancer, go do that! or go fist fight the bioware devs, whichever

[Corker]

Curing cancer is out for me, but I've got space robots. Then when I come home, I can over-analyze Dragon Age for fun. It's not an either/or proposition.

[WhiteThunder]

Kail Ashton wrote...

I know "reality check" means little here but, you're debating over the proper term of what to call a fictional race of giant horned creatures

.......call them sphagetti-o's for all anyone cares, they don't exist outside of one series of fiction, it doesn't require a philosophical debate, good grief you people could be doing some thing more productive in real life, like cure'n cancer, go do that! or go fist fight the bioware devs, whichever

By that same logic, why are you here when you "could be doing something more productive in real life"?

[DreGregoire]

xsdob wrote...

The qunari do not consider the vashoth to be the same race anymore, since their religion is a much bigger identifier to them than their race is now.

Quoted for truthiness
 
It wouldn't be so odd (I'm not saying its right) for a group of people to consider one who goes against their beliefs to no longer be a part of their kind.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 16 novembre 2012 - 01:52 .

[Lucia69]

David Gaider wrote...
There is no gap. The collective name is qunari. They're synonymous.

We have no difficulty with it. The only difficulty seems to be people here on the forums who are trying very hard to have difficulty with it. You can say that's a gap in our lore if you wish, but I call BS.

The difficulty stems from the fact that when we're first introduced to the word 'qunari', we thought it designated the race specifically. Then we learnt that it refers to all the followers of the Qun, including humans and elves, so now it seems to us (in my opinion) like we need another term to talk exclusively about the race. That's why you see the word Kossith tossed around so much, to fill in the blank.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Corker wrote...

Back before DA2 came out and the word 'kossith' showed up, I called the grey-skinned tall people who may or may not follow the Qun "giants," especially after I got the "I am not a qunari" lecture from Armaas in Awakening. Several NPCs use it to refer to Sten, if I recall correctly.

It might qualify as a slur, I suppose, but from context all I could say for sure was that it was slang.

I've seen them referred to as ox-men in DA2. That or giants is looking pretty good right now.

[David Gaider]

Lucia69 wrote...
The difficulty stems from the fact that when we're first introduced to the word 'qunari', we thought it designated the race specifically. Then we learnt that it refers to all the followers of the Qun, including humans and elves, so now it seems to us (in my opinion) like we need another term to talk exclusively about the race. That's why you see the word Kossith tossed around so much, to fill in the blank.

Oh, I understand why. But you don't need another term. That's what we've said-- repeatedly.

Someone says "well, what do you call them in your documents?" Qunari. "No, what do you call the horned people, the race?" Qunari. "And the followers of the Qun?" Qunari... or, alternatively, 'followers of the Qun'. "But what about the horned people who aren't followers of the Qun?" Tal'Vashoth. "All of them?" Yes. "But that's what they call themselves... what do we call them both as a group?" Qunari. "But that's confusing!" Err... no. No, it's really not. Not unless you're trying to be pedantic.

Which, clearly some people really are. So... whatever? Call them floating cheese wheels, if that makes you happy. We'll just be referring to them in-game by their proper names. Don't know how we went from us saying "that's not an accurate term" to "OMG the writers get angry whenever it's mentioned! It's forbidden!" Kind of regret ever mentioning their former name at all, now.

Modifié par David Gaider, 16 novembre 2012 - 02:12 .

[upsettingshorts]

I'm trying to think of instances where "Kossith" is even consistently used outside of race selection or "I'd like to bang the large horned fantasy race and don't care what belief structure they have" threads and coming up empty.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 novembre 2012 - 02:11 .