Upsettingshorts wrote...
I'm trying to think of instances where "Kossith" is even consistently used outside of race selection or "I'd like to bang the large horned fantasy race and don't care what belief structure they have" threads and coming up empty.
Modifié par Corker, 16 novembre 2012 - 02:14 .
Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I'm far more interested in being correct and precise than with being understood.
:wub:
Corker wrote...
Upsettingshorts wrote...
I'm trying to think of instances where "Kossith" is even consistently used outside of race selection or "I'd like to bang the large horned fantasy race and don't care what belief structure they have" threads and coming up empty.
Fanfic and DA-based RPGs.
Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 novembre 2012 - 02:15 .
David Gaider wrote...
Lucia69 wrote...
The difficulty stems from the fact that when we're first introduced to the word 'qunari', we thought it designated the race specifically. Then we learnt that it refers to all the followers of the Qun, including humans and elves, so now it seems to us (in my opinion) like we need another term to talk exclusively about the race. That's why you see the word Kossith tossed around so much, to fill in the blank.
Oh, I understand why. But you don't need another term. That's what we've said-- repeatedly.
Someone says "well, what do you call them in your documents?" Qunari. "No, what do you call the horned people, the race?" Qunari. "And the followers of the Qun?" Qunari... or, alternatively, 'followers of the Qun'. "But what about the horned people who aren't followers of the Qun?" Tal'Vashoth. "All of them?" Yes. "But that's what they call themselves... what do we call them both as a group?" Qunari. "But that's confusing!" Err... no. No, it's really not. Not unless you're trying to be pedantic.
Which, clearly some people really are. So... whatever? Call them floating cheese wheels, if that makes you happy. We'll just be referring to them in-game by their proper names. Don't know how we went from us saying "that's not an accurate term" to "OMG the writers get angry whenever it's mentioned! It's forbidden!" Kind of regret ever mentioning their former name at all, now.
Guest_PurebredCorn_*
David Gaider wrote...
Don't know how we went from us saying "that's not an accurate term" to "OMG the writers get angry whenever it's mentioned! It's forbidden!" Kind of regret ever mentioning their former name at all, now.
![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
Modifié par PurebredCorn, 16 novembre 2012 - 02:19 .
Sith Grey Warden wrote...
Would you have less of a problem with it if we called them "giants" or "ox-men"?
Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 16 novembre 2012 - 02:19 .
Dhiro wrote...
I don't see the problem in calling them all Qunari. Orlais has elves and (a few, I assume) dwarves, but we call them all Orlesians anyway.
Modifié par Auintus, 16 novembre 2012 - 02:33 .
Dhiro wrote...
I don't see the problem in calling them all Qunari. Orlais has elves and (a few, I assume) dwarves, but we call them all Orlesians anyway.
We don't, meanwhile, lack the word elf when we need to specify an elf.Dhiro wrote...
I don't see the problem in calling them all Qunari. Orlais has elves and (a few, I assume) dwarves, but we call them all Orlesians anyway.
What, by saying ‘the qunari race’ or ‘ethnic qunari’? That's fine, I guess. The Jewish analogy works. But I keep getting the impression that David insists that somehow even that—or anything specifying ‘no, the grey-skinned sometimes-horned people’—shouldn't be necessary because they're just qunari, silly ducklings.Wissenschaft wrote...
Sylvius the Mad wrote...
No, that would be ambiguous. That fails the precision test.Monica21 wrote...
Still just Qunari.Sylvius the Mad wrote...
If we use Qunari to refer to those formerly known as Kossith, how then should we refer collectively to all followers of the Qun?
I'm far more interested in being correct and precise than with being understood.
Language is naturally ambiguous. This problem is solved with a little thing called context.
Modifié par Ellestor, 16 novembre 2012 - 02:52 .
Corker wrote...
Dhiro wrote...
I don't see the problem in calling them all Qunari. Orlais has elves and (a few, I assume) dwarves, but we call them all Orlesians anyway.
Believe it or not, it's to reduce pedantry. Stay with me.
Working in derivative creative endeavors, there's usually a big emphasis on "what the lore says." Yes, we can all point to many blushingly bad examples of writers or gamers who gleefully ignore it, but debating lore is srsbzns for bunches of us. Top notch pedants, every one.
Having a word like "giant" or "ox-man" to denote the grey-skinned race of very large people helps prevent conversations like:
A: I want to play a qunari mercenary.
B: There's no such thing.
A: Yeah, Arl Howe had two of them you can fight in the Pearl. They're real.
B: Those are tal-vashoth. Have you ever talked to Armaas in Awakening?
A: Uh... okay, tal-vashoth, then.
C: But are they tal-vashoth or sellswords?
B: Tal-vashoth *are* sellswords.
C: Noooo. Look, here's a YouTube video of Maraas in Act Three of DA2. He explains that he's not tal-vashoth anymore.
A: So... he's qunari?
C: No, he says he's nothing, that's what Maraas means.
A: Can I play a maraas, then?
C: It's not the name of a group, it's just the name of -
A: WHAT DO I CALL IT THEN?
D: Yesterday on the forums, David Gaider said the devs just call them all qunari.
C: Source, please.
D: Here you go.
A: So I can play a qunari mercenary?
B: He's not a qunari!
A: *flips table*
And then the Cheetos are all over the place and nobody wants that.
xsdob wrote...
No one would ever have a conversation like this ever, not unless you somehow removed context from person A,C, and D.
You see, that's the thing about people, we don't have distinguishing words and ways of saying words for everything, but our minds are capable of using context to understand what people are saying.
David Gaider wrote...
Oh, I understand why. But you don't need another term. That's what we've said-- repeatedly.
Someone says "well, what do you call them in your documents?" Qunari. "No, what do you call the horned people, the race?" Qunari. "And the followers of the Qun?" Qunari... or, alternatively, 'followers of the Qun'. "But what about the horned people who aren't followers of the Qun?" Tal'Vashoth. "All of them?" Yes. "But that's what they call themselves... what do we call them both as a group?" Qunari. "But that's confusing!" Err... no. No, it's really not. Not unless you're trying to be pedantic.
Which, clearly some people really are. So... whatever? Call them floating cheese wheels, if that makes you happy. We'll just be referring to them in-game by their proper names. Don't know how we went from us saying "that's not an accurate term" to "OMG the writers get angry whenever it's mentioned! It's forbidden!" Kind of regret ever mentioning their former name at all, now.
Corker wrote...
xsdob wrote...
No one would ever have a conversation like this ever, not unless you somehow removed context from person A,C, and D.
You see, that's the thing about people, we don't have distinguishing words and ways of saying words for everything, but our minds are capable of using context to understand what people are saying.
Dude, I have that conversation all the time. It's a pedant thing. Splitting hairs and debating the area needed for angels to square-dance on the head of a pin is part of the hobby.
Lucia69 wrote...
David Gaider wrote...
Oh, I understand why. But you don't need another term. That's what we've said-- repeatedly.
Someone says "well, what do you call them in your documents?" Qunari. "No, what do you call the horned people, the race?" Qunari. "And the followers of the Qun?" Qunari... or, alternatively, 'followers of the Qun'. "But what about the horned people who aren't followers of the Qun?" Tal'Vashoth. "All of them?" Yes. "But that's what they call themselves... what do we call them both as a group?" Qunari. "But that's confusing!" Err... no. No, it's really not. Not unless you're trying to be pedantic.
Which, clearly some people really are. So... whatever? Call them floating cheese wheels, if that makes you happy. We'll just be referring to them in-game by their proper names. Don't know how we went from us saying "that's not an accurate term" to "OMG the writers get angry whenever it's mentioned! It's forbidden!" Kind of regret ever mentioning their former name at all, now.
It's not that we think that the way the word is innacurate or 'incorrect' (specially considering you're the ones that made it up), but that it feels annoying not to have a single word to talk about the race, exclusively. The word 'qunari' alone doesn't do, you have to actually spell out that you're talking about just the race, and not the Qun followers. Which is why the term Kossith was so convinient, though I'll grant you that assuming how it's used based on nothing and throwing a tantrum when you contradicted us may have not been entirely correct.
Modifié par xsdob, 16 novembre 2012 - 02:52 .
Modifié par Ellestor, 16 novembre 2012 - 02:58 .
Ellestor wrote...
]What, by saying ‘the qunari race’ or ‘ethnic qunari’? That's fine—the Jewish analogy works—but I keep getting the impression that David insists that somehow even that shouldn't be necessary.
Modifié par Foolsfolly, 16 novembre 2012 - 03:02 .
xsdob wrote...
To each their own though, so yeah, this is gonna be hard for you guys to do.
I think we all understand the qunari's reasons.Foolsfolly wrote...
Ellestor wrote...
]What, by saying ‘the qunari race’ or ‘ethnic qunari’? That's fine—the Jewish analogy works—but I keep getting the impression that David insists that somehow even that shouldn't be necessary.
What's hard to understand here? They're a fictional race that identify so deeply with their religion that that IS who they are. Even when they no longer follow the qun they allow the the qun to dictate what they are.
Why is this hard to understand? Because they're not like us culturally? Well, of course they're not. That's entirely why the qunari the most interesting race in the series right now. Each game you learn more about them and it just makes them more fasinating. They're completely alien to all the other races in the series (which we instantly identify because they draw on typical fantasy tropes, not saying the qunari don't either but there's some sense of incongruity with this foreign people from across the sea and all the native Thedas inhabitants.)
No one would ever have a conversation like this ever, not unless you somehow removed context from person A,C, and D.
You see, that's the thing about people, we don't have distinguishing words and ways of saying words for everything, but our minds are capable of using context to understand what people are saying.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 novembre 2012 - 03:27 .
Ellestor wrote...
I think we all understand the qunari's reasons.Foolsfolly wrote...
Ellestor wrote...
]What, by saying ‘the qunari race’ or ‘ethnic qunari’? That's fine—the Jewish analogy works—but I keep getting the impression that David insists that somehow even that shouldn't be necessary.
What's hard to understand here? They're a fictional race that identify so deeply with their religion that that IS who they are. Even when they no longer follow the qun they allow the the qun to dictate what they are.
Why is this hard to understand? Because they're not like us culturally? Well, of course they're not. That's entirely why the qunari the most interesting race in the series right now. Each game you learn more about them and it just makes them more fasinating. They're completely alien to all the other races in the series (which we instantly identify because they draw on typical fantasy tropes, not saying the qunari don't either but there's some sense of incongruity with this foreign people from across the sea and all the native Thedas inhabitants.)
That's pretty much how my list looks. There are a couple of other specific terms that have been mentioned in this thread but they refer to subdivisions of what you've written (like basra and kabethari and basilit-an or however you spell it).xsdob wrote...
Here's my list of terms used to identify qunari.
Horned giant followers of the qun = Qunari
Horned giants who don't follow the qun = Vashoth
Horned giants who oppose the qun = Tal-Vashoth
None-giant worshipers = Viddathari
Everyone who isn't a giant or worshiper = Bas
Horned race as a collective whole = Qunari(since so many follow the qun)
Magic horned people = Saarebas
Hows this look to everyone elses list? I'm curious to know.
The issue is we here on Earth are not followers of the Qun and maybe sometimes want to refer to the race without playing Who's on First.Foolsfolly wrote...
Ellestor wrote...
I think we all understand the qunari's reasons.Foolsfolly wrote...
Ellestor wrote...
]What, by saying ‘the qunari race’ or ‘ethnic qunari’? That's fine—the Jewish analogy works—but I keep getting the impression that David insists that somehow even that shouldn't be necessary.
What's hard to understand here? They're a fictional race that identify so deeply with their religion that that IS who they are. Even when they no longer follow the qun they allow the the qun to dictate what they are.
Why is this hard to understand? Because they're not like us culturally? Well, of course they're not. That's entirely why the qunari the most interesting race in the series right now. Each game you learn more about them and it just makes them more fasinating. They're completely alien to all the other races in the series (which we instantly identify because they draw on typical fantasy tropes, not saying the qunari don't either but there's some sense of incongruity with this foreign people from across the sea and all the native Thedas inhabitants.)
Then what's the issue? They named themselves qunari and that's what they are. The nations of Thedas have never known them as anything else.
Modifié par Ellestor, 16 novembre 2012 - 03:23 .
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