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Do you want more RPG elements to come back?


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#51
David7204

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LucasShark wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Shepard's backstory affects a few things in the story and nothing else. There's no side effects. If the player doesn't like it and prefers another backstory, he or she can change it with no other consequences.

But what if a player doesn't like their 'class personality.' If they want to change it, they'll have to play as a class they may not enjoy. So there are side effects. There are other consequences.


There are backstory-exclusive sidequests in ME1, case closed.


That is moronic. That is a five minute quest that players have multiple ways of dealing with. That is nothing in comparison to however many hours of combat are in the game.

Modifié par David7204, 12 novembre 2012 - 12:17 .


#52
Teddie Sage

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Well duh... Mass Effect 3 felt so straightforward at times that I was disappointed in the lead designer's choices.

#53
Zakuspec089

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Mass Effect should be kept a RPG/Shooter the way it is. I'm not a fan of Kotor, DA or those types. I like how Mass Effect, Elder games are.

#54
Wulfram

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I want less auto-dialogue. But I don't think that's what you're talking about.

But in terms of combat mechanics, I think ME3 had pretty solid Action-RPG mechanics. I might be happy if it turned into a straight RPG, but that's not happening, and if you've got to bring the action into it then I think it's in a pretty good place.

edit:  I think buying weapon upgrades in ME3 - I mean, going from a Mantis I to a Mantis V - was a bad mechanic which discouraged the player from experimenting with different loadouts, and I'd like it scrapped.  So you could say I want to reduce the RPG elements.

edit2:  Squadmate armour customisation would be nice

Modifié par Wulfram, 12 novembre 2012 - 12:20 .


#55
kyban

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DrGunjah wrote...

kyban wrote...
I disagree with all of your points.

It sounds like you're more of a fast gameplay, and combat enthusiast. I'm more old school RPG. The old skills were not all that useless, they did help.
The strong points in ME1 were not so much its combat but its compelling story, characters and settings. I would like to see the RPG come back, and not be so much of a mainstream shooter. Don't we have Gears of War and other games for that?

The issue with the looting system and the skill trees in ME1 was mainly balance imho.
In the beginning the game is quite hard but it gets ridiculously easy in the endgame due to skills like immunity or gear like colossus armor or the spectre weapons.
Also, ME1 lacks in skill variety.


Good argument, I like your points.

ME1 was a low budget, kinda one shot attempt. They didn't know if the game would be a success, so how much money do you spend on it? I think that's a lot of the reason why combat was so clunky, and why it wasn't balanced super well.

I'm not saying that the skills and balance was perfect. I'm saying I miss having that ability in the game. I'm more than sure Bioware could refine it and make better skill trees and item management.

At least insanity mode had some kind of challenge in ME1. Still not that hard if you had immunity and stasis, but you know, it wasn't a breeze.

Modifié par kyban, 12 novembre 2012 - 12:26 .


#56
JaceBelerin

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David7204 wrote...

No. If you want the story to be more realistic and not less, that means no more carrying 80 guns and 50 suits of armor in your pocket.

The game and universe are far from realistic now. Besides, if they used the omnitool to construct and deconstruct your weapons we wouldn't have that problem.

We can make a nigh invincible blade with an edge as wide as an atom magically construct, but can't use the same technology to assemble a fire arm?

#57
David7204

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I'm not willing to have the player character carry 99 of everything in his pockets just because older games got away with it.

People say that there of plenty of Call-of-Duty-Gears-of-War games out there for people who like action. Maybe so. But that works both ways. There are also plenty of games where players can carry 800 pounds of crap in their pockets and have zero regard for realism when it comes to weapons and armor and such.

If it was easy, anybody could do it.

#58
kyban

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Sajuro wrote...

kyban wrote...

For example, I liked managing my equipment in ME1 but you got so much junk that it was hard to keep track of it all. I liked what they did for ME3 with weapon mods, but i wanted it to be more fleshed out (2 mods and an ammo type is what I liked.).

I also wanted mods for equipment. In ME2 & 3, I like that certain armor has particular stats, but they were fixed. This is a major story and character driven game, people are going to care about the way they look. If we want to wear certain armor, we shouldn't be punished for wanting to wear + Biotic skill armor when we're a soldier, or engineer. We should be able to mod armor like we can our weapons.

I also Missed the expansive skill trees from ME1. I actually don't mind how big they were, but i can see why they watered it down. I would like to see something more in the middle. I liked how i could put points for my crew to make my squad more versatile, like giving Tali sabatage, and Garrus dampening, etc. (What ever happened to hacking and slicing? )

Baisically I want the game to go back to being more of an RPG.

First of all, you do have two weapon mods and an ammo type in ME3, it's just that the ammo types you get aren't useless or highly situational (also you don't have to pause to change out ammo type in the inventory screen)

Second, I would like more cosmetic armor, but I can see why certain armors would be more restrictive depending on your class, a adept wouldn't want to wear heavy armor because of the motions they have to make and an infiltrator wouldn't do well in heavy armor either. Also a soldier could probably wear adept armor, but when you have heavier armor that you are trained to use, why?

Third, I did not like the skill trees in ME1, first a professional soldier/marine can't aim with certain guns depending on the class and they choose to do more damage as you go up in level, what is Shepard doing, pulling the trigger harder. I disliked heavily the electronics and tech skills because it limited who I could take if I actually wanted to open any of the boxes in later levels and it just felt silly that shepard was able to disarm Saren's bombs in the first level but he needs Tali's help to play Simon Says later on when he wants to get into a storage locker.


I don't like having ammo types as a skill type i spend recources on. I liked having a mod on my weapon itself, that way i can use all rounds and not be limited. It works that way in Multiplayer.

to your third point. I've stated earlier in this post that the skill trees weren't perfect, and not for everyone. There could have been much better ways to impliment them.
What I'm getting at is that I want to have that ability again. ME3 brought some of it back, but I want more choice and to have it more fleshed out.
Part of having skill trees is deciding what you want to specialize in. It's part of older RPG's, you spend your points accoring to what you want, but you can't have it all.

Decision making. This game at it's core is about making story decisions. They should apply the same principle to deciding what skills you want. Just like D&D and other similar RPG's that Bioware built itself on.

#59
David7204

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Before you call something 'magically' maybe you should first check if it can actually be done in real life?

#60
LucasShark

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David7204 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Shepard's backstory affects a few things in the story and nothing else. There's no side effects. If the player doesn't like it and prefers another backstory, he or she can change it with no other consequences.

But what if a player doesn't like their 'class personality.' If they want to change it, they'll have to play as a class they may not enjoy. So there are side effects. There are other consequences.


There are backstory-exclusive sidequests in ME1, case closed.


That is moronic. That is a five minute quest that players have multiple ways of dealing with. That is nothing in comparison to however many hours of combat are in the game.


And you have no problem with it.  The introduction of class-based dialogue choices or minor options would have an equal effect, and yet you oppose it.

#61
kyban

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Wulfram wrote...

I want less auto-dialogue. But I don't think that's what you're talking about.

But in terms of combat mechanics, I think ME3 had pretty solid Action-RPG mechanics. I might be happy if it turned into a straight RPG, but that's not happening, and if you've got to bring the action into it then I think it's in a pretty good place.

edit:  I think buying weapon upgrades in ME3 - I mean, going from a Mantis I to a Mantis V - was a bad mechanic which discouraged the player from experimenting with different loadouts, and I'd like it scrapped.  So you could say I want to reduce the RPG elements.

edit2:  Squadmate armour customisation would be nice


Thanks! I would also like less auto-dialogue.

#62
Gruntburner

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LucasShark wrote...

Gruntburner wrote...

I would welcome it very much, as long as they are implemented in such a way as to not make them obtuse, annoying, or tedious.


Those are somewhat hard things to gauge: I don't find Galactic Civilizations 2 tedius, but it is a turn-based strategy game with over multiple menus with multiple tabs to each, but I think it works, yet plonk an action game player into it and they'd be bored to tears.  I found ES4 Oblivion's inventory and gameplay less annoying than SKyrim, but lots of people find the opposite.


Basically make the changes mean something to gameplay, giving you different ways to play with relative ease.  Also make it user friendly.

#63
kyban

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David7204 wrote...

I'm not willing to have the player character carry 99 of everything in his pockets just because older games got away with it.

People say that there of plenty of Call-of-Duty-Gears-of-War games out there for people who like action. Maybe so. But that works both ways. There are also plenty of games where players can carry 800 pounds of crap in their pockets and have zero regard for realism when it comes to weapons and armor and such.

If it was easy, anybody could do it.


This is true. I'm not saying Mass Effect should be like the old Final Fantasy games.

I play Mass Effect because I love it. I love the story and the characters. In the next game, I would like to see the RPG side have a bigger impact than it has been. Bioware was founded on making amazing RPG games, and I want to see that again with Mass Effect.

#64
MrFob

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I have to say, I thought ME3 had a very nice balance in terms of gameplay. The skills, the weapon and armor mods, all worked very well and felt "right" IMO.
Only thing that could be added there is more armor customization for your squad mates.

If you were talking about rpg elements in terms of dialogue, that area needs improvement. There simply was way too much auto dialogue as discussed in length throughout the last couple of months.

#65
David7204

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No matter what background Shepard has, s/he can still react to it however the player wants.

I really doubt that would ever be the case with 'class personalities.' I doubt the game would let me answer a very technical question as a solider, even if I as a player personally understand the topic and know the answer.

And if it's not the case, what's the point of 'class personalities' in the first place? If a solider Shepard can understand technical topics as well as an engineer, how does class affect anything?

#66
David7204

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Ok then. But let's have them do it without throwing realism out the window.

#67
JaceBelerin

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David7204 wrote...

Before you call something 'magically' maybe you should first check if it can actully be done in real life?

Not to the scale and degree shown in game. If that is the case then FTL should be non existant because we haven't reached the technological level in order to achieve it.

Realism can only go so far in a fictional universe that has already thrown synthesis out there. I mean seriously, look at synthesis and get back to me on realism.

#68
LucasShark

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David7204 wrote...

No matter what background Shepard has, s/he can still react to it however the player wants.

I really doubt that would ever be the case with 'class personalities.' I doubt the game would let me answer a very technical question as a solider, even if I as a player personally understand the topic and know the answer.

And if it's not the case, what's the point of 'class personalities' in the first place? If a solider Shepard can understand technical topics as well as an engineer, how does class affect anything?


David7204 wrote...
Let's not throw reaslism out the window.


I'm sorry, but that made me laugh out loud seeing those things next to eachother: is it realistic for a soldier who has spent most of their training learning how to take and return bullets to suddenly gain a Macguiver-esque understanding of a technical issue?

#69
Aaleel

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Well of course.

And while there are a lot of things I can list, I just have to say one that has irked me since I saw it in ME2.

If I want to use a certain type of ammo I should just be able to put a clip in my gun. I always thought the idea of ammo as a power to be absurd. Why should a I need to bring a certain squadmate to magically change the type of ammo in my gun. Please scrap this.

#70
David7204

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I understand a hell of a lot of technical issues I've had absolutely no formal training in. A huge amount of people do. So yes, it's perfectly realistic.

Modifié par David7204, 12 novembre 2012 - 12:37 .


#71
LucasShark

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David7204 wrote...

I understand a hell of a lot of technical issues I've had absolutely no formal training in. So yes, it's perfectly realistic.


No, no it is not: It is not realistic for someone who's career is about diving for cover and returning fire to suddenly know how to repair a nuclear reactor unless it is specifically stated earlier that they have a personal interest in that topic.

This is like having Steven Hawking appear in your story and suddenly know how to bake a prize-winning layer cake.  Yes, it isn't impossible: but it's not exactly in character or relevant to his established area of expertise.

#72
MrFob

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Aaleel wrote...
If I want to use a certain type of ammo I should just be able to put a clip in my gun. I always thought the idea of ammo as a power to be absurd. Why should a I need to bring a certain squadmate to magically change the type of ammo in my gun. Please scrap this.


Well, I am not sure about that but I think the clip idea is wouldn't fit wither. In ME, clips are just heat sinks. They are not actual ammo so they cannot change the type of "bullets" you shoot. Not sure how exactly the powers are supposed to work but I think there might be something in the descriptions in game. Haven't read those in a while though, so I am not sure.

#73
kyban

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Aaleel wrote...

Well of course.

And while there are a lot of things I can list, I just have to say one that has irked me since I saw it in ME2.

If I want to use a certain type of ammo I should just be able to put a clip in my gun. I always thought the idea of ammo as a power to be absurd. Why should a I need to bring a certain squadmate to magically change the type of ammo in my gun. Please scrap this.


lol, i love this comment. That's pretty much true. Ammo should be mods like they were before, but some interesting new skills to replace them in your class tree!

#74
David7204

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You just said it would have relatively small effects. Repairing a nuclear reactor seems like a pretty big damn effect to me.

This is an excellent example. Would I know how to repair a nuclear reactor? Of course not. But do I know enough about fusion and fission power that I could have a discussion about them and for there to be a reasonable chance of me knowing the answer to a question about them? Sure.

Besides, the chances of even an Engineer Shepard knowing how to repair a reactor are practically nil. They aren't going to include classes in advanced nuclear physics, nuclear chemistry, and a bunch of engineering disciplines I couldn't even guess unless someone specifically studies them.

Modifié par David7204, 12 novembre 2012 - 12:46 .


#75
kyban

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MrFob wrote...

Aaleel wrote...
If I want to use a certain type of ammo I should just be able to put a clip in my gun. I always thought the idea of ammo as a power to be absurd. Why should a I need to bring a certain squadmate to magically change the type of ammo in my gun. Please scrap this.


Well, I am not sure about that but I think the clip idea is wouldn't fit wither. In ME, clips are just heat sinks. They are not actual ammo so they cannot change the type of "bullets" you shoot. Not sure how exactly the powers are supposed to work but I think there might be something in the descriptions in game. Haven't read those in a while though, so I am not sure.


I think Aaleel means clip as in weapon magazine and/or clip. The clip contianing the ammunition you fire. Not so much thermal clip.