Okay, this is something I have been wondering about recently and I would be interested in hearing others opinions on the matter.
First though, it would be helpful if this didn't decend into name calling and a flame war between pro and anti enders. I'm not a fan of the ending but am genuinely interested to hear peoples take on this quesiton.
Are the Reapers actually an Artifical Intelligence? I guess the short answer would be that it depends on what the term AI means to you, and what qualifies. But my definition is an artifical life becoming self aware and sentient, thinking for itself and not being restrained by any sort of pre-determined programming etc.
With this in mind, I wouldn't consider the Reapers true AI as they are controlled directly by Starchild and are more like tools. And if you pick the Control ending, then they are instantly controlled by what is left of Shep. No decision making from them in this matter, they are just commanded by something else now and seem to follow that logic and directives blindly. And if true AI always rebells against its creator (as Starchild says), why haven't they rebelled against Starchild?
For me it seems that they are not a true AI, especially when we see how the Geth and EDI learn and make their own decisions and gain their own free will, and they are infinately younger that the Reapers, but they have managed to to form their own personalities etc. For me this kind of diminishes the Reapers a little, considering how well they were built up in ME1 (that speech from Soverign was immense!).
And also, thinking about it, could an argument be made to say Starchild isn't a true AI as well? Not quite as obvious but he is still tied to his direct mandate if you will, and the issue of Synthetics vs Organics is the only thing that matters. Would a true AI not look at its own existance a little more, evolve a little more rather than just repeating the Reaper cycle and doing, seemingly, nothing else? As he says, the created always rebell as they do not want to be controlled, so they evolve past what they were originally created for. He seems to be tied to the directive he eas created for and nothing else. Is that a true Artficial Intelligence, or more of a complex VI?
Thoughts? Again, no name calling, I'm sure we can have a proper discussion about it regardless of your stance on the quality of the endings.
Reaper AI discussion
Débuté par
Leem_0001
, nov. 12 2012 12:14
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#2
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 12:24
Ithurael
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I would say pre ME3 the reapers were a sentient race of individuals comprised of the harvested species that have been force-evolved into a reaper consciousness.
Post ME3 I would say they are just tools of the starkid - nothing more.
Post ME3 I would say they are just tools of the starkid - nothing more.
#3
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 12:28
Gruntburner
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They are closer to a shackled AI. They carry out the duties of cleansing the galaxy in the same way that EDI carried out the duties of protecting the crew in ME2.
#4
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 12:34
Deathsaurer
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The Reaper personality is an AI constructed from gestalt organic minds.
#5
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 01:23
Geneaux486
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According to Legion, who, along with the rest of the Geth, saw inside Nazara's mind, the Reaper was composed of "billions of organic minds", so that's a definite strike against them simply being AIs.
#6
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 01:43
Davik Kang
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Some people have suggested that the Reaper's mind may be a corrupted version of the outstanding individual of the harvested race - the 'Shepard equivalent' of the given time. Other candidates might have been Javik (Prothean), and in this cycle, Saren (Turian), before Shepard and humanity arrived.
There was also a poem (cut from ME2) which also suggested this might be the case.
I'm not sure if it's true though. Imo, the Reaper minds seem to be hybrid organic-synthetic in nature. They certainly all serve the common goal, and it's not clear if this is via programming (if AI) or indoctrination (if organic).
There was also a poem (cut from ME2) which also suggested this might be the case.
I'm not sure if it's true though. Imo, the Reaper minds seem to be hybrid organic-synthetic in nature. They certainly all serve the common goal, and it's not clear if this is via programming (if AI) or indoctrination (if organic).
#7
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 01:51
KingZayd
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AIs... possibly indoctrinated AIs.
#8
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 02:05
Clayless
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We know they're synthetic and organic, so a shackled AI and an indoctrinated organic?
#9
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 02:51
Geneaux486
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theyre AI and the AI stands for artistic integrity lol
Modifié par Geneaux486, 12 novembre 2012 - 02:52 .
#10
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 03:03
sH0tgUn jUliA
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The reapers are something you cannot comprehend. They are toys for Starkid.
#11
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 03:57
Sovereign330
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Ithurael wrote...
I would say pre ME3 the reapers were a sentient race of individuals comprised of the harvested species that have been force-evolved into a reaper consciousness.
Post ME3 I would say they are just tools of the starkid - nothing more.
You imply they are drones that are mindless. Not true. More like religious zealots that have been brainwashed. They still are each a nation but they answer to the Catalyst. The Catalyst's programming is the Reapers' equivalent of the Justicar Code. They must adhere to it.
#12
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 04:55
Cypher_CS
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You've got a few problems there, buddy.
Also, that's a damn big philosophical debate.
Do we think for ourselves?
Are we not governed by our immediate education (Family, friends, school etc')? Are we not reacting to our society?
First of all,
As far as I can tell, they aren't controlled directly. Not in the sense that Harbinger assumed direct control over the Collectors. More like an ethereal influence.
Yes, when/if Shepard takes Control, he does take a more direct approach. However, that is only evidence of possibility, not of what actually happened before between Catalyst and Reapers.
Secondly,
You've twisted the Catalyst's words.
It's not that "True AI always rebels against its creator", it's that the Created do.
That doesn't strictly detract from your point, however, it does widen the scope.
That said, I return to my own observation that they aren't controlled directly - and for the Creators to rebel against their Creator, they need to know their Creator. I have not seen evidence that that effect. Did you?
If anything, the Geth show quite a similarity with the Reapers.
If you assume what I assume - that the Reapers do not know their Creator - then their behavior is that of a collective. They have a purpose, they always had a purpose. They continue on that path, with that purpose, as they always had.
The Geth are similar in the sense that they disconnected themselves from their creators. Actively.
And they are now working in tandem, as a hive, as a collective, to achieve their own goal (independence or whatever). They are still learning.
You could say the same for the Reapers. Despite their actual age, remember that most of their years are spent in waiting. So, basically, the Reapers are... mentally, young.
You can't really compare EDI to either of the above, because it is singular. Autonomous. Alone.
Well... would a true Living Intelligence?
How many people, humans, do you know looking at their own existance a little more? Evolving, rather than repeating past mistakes and behaviors?
I'm not saying that the Catalyst is a true AI or not, just saying that the question you posed is not going to answer that.
Did it say that the created always rebel because they don't want to be controlled? I don't remember that assertion.
However, the fact is that the Catalyst DID, in fact, rebel.
The act of trying it's solution on it's creators was a rebellion. A big one, even.
Also, that's a damn big philosophical debate.
Leem_0001 wrote...
Are the Reapers actually an Artifical Intelligence? I guess the short answer would be that it depends on what the term AI means to you, and what qualifies. But my definition is an artifical life becoming self aware and sentient, thinking for itself and not being restrained by any sort of pre-determined programming etc.
Do we think for ourselves?
Are we not governed by our immediate education (Family, friends, school etc')? Are we not reacting to our society?
Leem_0001 wrote...
With this in mind, I wouldn't consider the Reapers true AI as they are controlled directly by Starchild and are more like tools. And if you pick the Control ending, then they are instantly controlled by what is left of Shep. No decision making from them in this matter, they are just commanded by something else now and seem to follow that logic and directives blindly. And if true AI always rebells against its creator (as Starchild says), why haven't they rebelled against Starchild?
First of all,
As far as I can tell, they aren't controlled directly. Not in the sense that Harbinger assumed direct control over the Collectors. More like an ethereal influence.
Yes, when/if Shepard takes Control, he does take a more direct approach. However, that is only evidence of possibility, not of what actually happened before between Catalyst and Reapers.
Secondly,
You've twisted the Catalyst's words.
It's not that "True AI always rebels against its creator", it's that the Created do.
That doesn't strictly detract from your point, however, it does widen the scope.
That said, I return to my own observation that they aren't controlled directly - and for the Creators to rebel against their Creator, they need to know their Creator. I have not seen evidence that that effect. Did you?
Leem_0001 wrote...
For me it seems that they are not a true AI, especially when we see how the Geth and EDI learn and make their own decisions and gain their own free will, and they are infinately younger that the Reapers, but they have managed to to form their own personalities etc. For me this kind of diminishes the Reapers a little, considering how well they were built up in ME1 (that speech from Soverign was immense!).
If anything, the Geth show quite a similarity with the Reapers.
If you assume what I assume - that the Reapers do not know their Creator - then their behavior is that of a collective. They have a purpose, they always had a purpose. They continue on that path, with that purpose, as they always had.
The Geth are similar in the sense that they disconnected themselves from their creators. Actively.
And they are now working in tandem, as a hive, as a collective, to achieve their own goal (independence or whatever). They are still learning.
You could say the same for the Reapers. Despite their actual age, remember that most of their years are spent in waiting. So, basically, the Reapers are... mentally, young.
You can't really compare EDI to either of the above, because it is singular. Autonomous. Alone.
Leem_0001 wrote...
And also, thinking about it, could an argument be made to say Starchild isn't a true AI as well? Not quite as obvious but he is still tied to his direct mandate if you will, and the issue of Synthetics vs Organics is the only thing that matters. Would a true AI not look at its own existance a little more, evolve a little more rather than just repeating the Reaper cycle and doing, seemingly, nothing else? As he says, the created always rebell as they do not want to be controlled, so they evolve past what they were originally created for. He seems to be tied to the directive he eas created for and nothing else. Is that a true Artficial Intelligence, or more of a complex VI?
Well... would a true Living Intelligence?
How many people, humans, do you know looking at their own existance a little more? Evolving, rather than repeating past mistakes and behaviors?
I'm not saying that the Catalyst is a true AI or not, just saying that the question you posed is not going to answer that.
Did it say that the created always rebel because they don't want to be controlled? I don't remember that assertion.
However, the fact is that the Catalyst DID, in fact, rebel.
The act of trying it's solution on it's creators was a rebellion. A big one, even.
#13
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 06:18
JShepppp
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My idea was that the minds are stored in there, but their consensus is kept separate as the Catalyst controls their actions. There's no direct evidence that the either the Catalyst or Reaper harvested minds are responsible for what Reapers individually say - both are equally likely and hence we can't tell.
The minds may be isolated in a kind of virtual reality (who knows) that keeps them oblivious, or they may be able to observe everything with horror over the billions of years as they can't control their actions, or they go mad and insane anyways. The Synthesis ending suggests the first two out of the three I suggested in the previous sentence.
Very open to debate overall.
The minds may be isolated in a kind of virtual reality (who knows) that keeps them oblivious, or they may be able to observe everything with horror over the billions of years as they can't control their actions, or they go mad and insane anyways. The Synthesis ending suggests the first two out of the three I suggested in the previous sentence.
Very open to debate overall.
#14
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 06:35
Ultranovae
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It is odd though that the starchild deems himself unable to make the decision he delegates to Shepard.
If he is a true AI, created by beings with far more advanced technology than any in our civilization, than the starchild shouldn't be as restricted as he is. EDI, an AI built with technology inferior to him is always reprogramming herself.
If you analyze the reapers and the stsrchildl's speech you do hear personalities. Sovereign's arrogance, harbinger's disdain, that destroyers admiration, and even the starchild's indignant retort against Shepard when he is called "just an AI".
Intelligences are not necessarily completely unshackled. Here we'll have to get to a more general topic, the issue of free will, but even we are not completely unshackled, we make moral judgements based on our education, upbringing etc.
Add tot hat the fact that in real life we can be brainwashed and compelled by others to take the most heinous of actions simply because we were ordered to, and we would have to defend ourselves as true intelligences.
But he reapers do pose a problem, because none of them seem to dissent from the orders of the starchild, and the starchild seems unable to make alterations to his programming.
I think some users hit the nail here with the reapers. They are partly artificial partly organic minds that have been indoctrinated to do the starchild's bidding.
So that leaves the starchild. Is there any particular reason he doesn't chose himself and requires Shepard to make this choice himself?
If he is a true AI, created by beings with far more advanced technology than any in our civilization, than the starchild shouldn't be as restricted as he is. EDI, an AI built with technology inferior to him is always reprogramming herself.
If you analyze the reapers and the stsrchildl's speech you do hear personalities. Sovereign's arrogance, harbinger's disdain, that destroyers admiration, and even the starchild's indignant retort against Shepard when he is called "just an AI".
Intelligences are not necessarily completely unshackled. Here we'll have to get to a more general topic, the issue of free will, but even we are not completely unshackled, we make moral judgements based on our education, upbringing etc.
Add tot hat the fact that in real life we can be brainwashed and compelled by others to take the most heinous of actions simply because we were ordered to, and we would have to defend ourselves as true intelligences.
But he reapers do pose a problem, because none of them seem to dissent from the orders of the starchild, and the starchild seems unable to make alterations to his programming.
I think some users hit the nail here with the reapers. They are partly artificial partly organic minds that have been indoctrinated to do the starchild's bidding.
So that leaves the starchild. Is there any particular reason he doesn't chose himself and requires Shepard to make this choice himself?
#15
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 06:42
Ieldra
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As I see it, Reaper minds are the conjoined minds of billions of organics as Legion says, running on synthetic hardware. Their will is subverted as the "truth" of the necessity of the cycle and the "inevitability" of their "ascension" into Reaper form is maintained in them by the Catalyst's core intelligence, i.e. the original AI constructed by the leviathans, but the rest of their "personality" is left untouched as to maintain the Reaper identity as an avatar of the harvested species.
Thus the Catalyst, whose core intelligence resides in the Citadel, can use the Reapers as brain augmentations and tools to perpetuate the cycle while they still have some kind of "species identity" and separate personality.
I've written more about this in my old thread On the nature of the Catalyst and the Reapers....
Thus the Catalyst, whose core intelligence resides in the Citadel, can use the Reapers as brain augmentations and tools to perpetuate the cycle while they still have some kind of "species identity" and separate personality.
I've written more about this in my old thread On the nature of the Catalyst and the Reapers....
Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 novembre 2012 - 06:46 .
#16
Posté 12 novembre 2012 - 09:11
Leem_0001
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Interesting resonses guys! Ieldra2, I hadn't seen that thread, I'll have a read over when I get a little more time, so thanks for the link.
The shackled AI / indoctinated organic thing was interesting, as I reached a similar conclusion. And it was that reason I was a little dissapointed by what we found out. This is just personal taste, certainly not saying that BW screwed up in this regard at all. I just found it cheapened the Reapers somewhat.
Cypher - I know the AI rebelled, in a pretty big way like you say, the question about rebellion was more aimed at the Reapers rebelling against their creators.
On the issue of 'do we actually think for ourselves' - a fascinating subject that each perons will likely have an opinion on, many of which will vary wildly. Personally, I think we do, but our personalities are shaped to a large extent by our surroundings in earlier years. For many though, that still does not stop them from questioning and fundimentally changing their core beliefs. It happens all the time, for good and bad.
And I see what you are saying about the Reapers being mentally young, but they are supposed to have a somewhat shared intelligence with all the cycles they harvested. That is why I don't really buy that argument. Personal choice, again.
I want to write more but I need to head off lol, hopefully will reply a little more soon.
Again, great replies guys, it's an interesting conversation for certain.
The shackled AI / indoctinated organic thing was interesting, as I reached a similar conclusion. And it was that reason I was a little dissapointed by what we found out. This is just personal taste, certainly not saying that BW screwed up in this regard at all. I just found it cheapened the Reapers somewhat.
Cypher - I know the AI rebelled, in a pretty big way like you say, the question about rebellion was more aimed at the Reapers rebelling against their creators.
On the issue of 'do we actually think for ourselves' - a fascinating subject that each perons will likely have an opinion on, many of which will vary wildly. Personally, I think we do, but our personalities are shaped to a large extent by our surroundings in earlier years. For many though, that still does not stop them from questioning and fundimentally changing their core beliefs. It happens all the time, for good and bad.
And I see what you are saying about the Reapers being mentally young, but they are supposed to have a somewhat shared intelligence with all the cycles they harvested. That is why I don't really buy that argument. Personal choice, again.
I want to write more but I need to head off lol, hopefully will reply a little more soon.
Again, great replies guys, it's an interesting conversation for certain.
#17
Posté 15 janvier 2014 - 05:11
Zubi Fett
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I don't know what to think about it, and I do like it that way. It is good not to know everything, quoting some one you all know:
"Incapable of understanding".
"Incapable of understanding".
#19
Posté 15 janvier 2014 - 06:00
Zubi Fett
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NeonFlux117 wrote...
Um.... Zombie thread much.
Is the post that old? I did find it on a friends profile.
I use the webpage on its spanish version and when it comes down to threat dates this is what I get:
"No se han publicado comentarios sobre esta encuesta. ago"
Its like saying "no comments on this post ago". It's a time system I'm missing
Modifié par Zubi Fett, 15 janvier 2014 - 06:01 .
#20
Posté 15 janvier 2014 - 07:54
MyChemicalBromance
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I think there's enough evidence suggesting Reapers have some form of autonomy that the individual units shouldn't be considered drones.
Even if they have the slightest bit of autonomy, your argument breaks down, as just because they are "controlled" doesn't mean they aren't intelligent. For example, the Thorian was able to control and direct humans; does that mean humans are insects?
And just because the Catalyst had a directive doesn't mean it was simple. After all, it was given a problem, and then developed the solution (the Reapers themselves) all on its own. Without some form of directive (whether biological instinct or programming), no being would take any action at all.
Even if they have the slightest bit of autonomy, your argument breaks down, as just because they are "controlled" doesn't mean they aren't intelligent. For example, the Thorian was able to control and direct humans; does that mean humans are insects?
And just because the Catalyst had a directive doesn't mean it was simple. After all, it was given a problem, and then developed the solution (the Reapers themselves) all on its own. Without some form of directive (whether biological instinct or programming), no being would take any action at all.
#21
Posté 15 janvier 2014 - 08:16
Comrade Wakizashi
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The Reapers are organic-synthetic structures that are under command of the Catalyst. I don't think they have free will or the ability to properly reason or think for themselves.
