93 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

Don't misunderstand me -- I thought the friendship/rivalry meter was really cool. We've all had that buddy that has this completely different way of looking at the world, and we love 'em to pieces even if we just don't get it. I really appreciated that view of relationships in DAII.

But there's just something awesome about having companions who can flat-out hate you. Who will leave if they find you disgusting enough. Who might even attack you just because you're so interolerable. And to have reactions to your choices that result in "OMG that was deplorable" rather than just "Oh, that Hawke!"

I'll be truthful: I never did a DA:O playthrough where I let any of my companions hate me longer than it took me to enjoy their deliciously negative responses and then reload. But I did that all.the.time. And I learned so much about their characters in the process. I felt like they had a greater sense of authonomy from me than my DAII clan, because they actually had the audacity to get genuinely "I won't forgive you for this" pissed at me.

I also felt like the rivalry system was confusing, in that some of your choices felt like they'd naturally lead a companion to respect you more than gush over you, and that was great -- but other choices were so ridiculously rude, mean, or contrary to the very core of what those characters stood for that it should have resulted in something like disapproval instead of rivalry. I feel like that was a big part of why people associated rivalry with disapproval, or punishment.
 
Rivalry didn't just come from sticking to your guns - it also came from just being a complete jerk.

Personally, I'm also expecting the companions in DAIII to be pretty polarizing. Though they haven't been announced yet, there are a lot of strong opinions about what some folk would like to do to a Templar companion, or a magister companion if one were introduced. Being able to make either of those outright hate you sounds deliciously intruiging to me. 



Now, I realize the DAIII team is deep enough into the development process that even if I hoped to sway them with a BSN topic, the game is way past that stage of development (and thank the Maker for that). I also feel pretty good about DAIII's chances of being amazing, so whatever the devs are doing will, I'm sure, be excellent.

But just because I'm curious, and old tired topics are old and tired, does anyone else miss companion disapproval? Were there instances that you loved or hated it in DA:O, or wish it had been available in DAII?


*EDIT: I also felt like DA:O did a great job of establishing what was, essentially, the perfect rivalry relationship with Sten. There was no way that guy was going to agree with your core values. But he respected and admired you in the end. I'd love to see more characters that you just *can't* convince to love you, but you can still have an amazing friendship with them.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 12 novembre 2012 - 04:11 .

[BanksHector]

I do not miss it at all. The system they did in DA2 was better but I hope they keep trying to improve it. I would of loved to have DA2 sytem in DAO. I disagree with a lot of Morrigan views and wish I could of been a rival to her instead of having her hate me or keep having to spam gifts to her to get hit to like me.

Modifié par BanksHector, 12 novembre 2012 - 04:09 .

[Asch Lavigne]

I can't wait to see what the new friendship/rivalry (or whatever it is they're calling it now) is for 3.

[HurricaneGinger]

You make some good points, but I enjoy the friendship/rivalry system too much. However, I DO miss the fact that if you ****** off a character enough they will leave or attempt to kill you. I think that's the one thing the DA2 system was missing. If you dislike a person so much, you'll stay away from them; and if you have a giant sword, you may try to kill them. XD

[PorcelynDoll]

I don't know. I liked Origins style a lot. DA2 was a lot like Paragon/Renegade but I found it hard to understand. It came off like Rival bad, Friend good.

[Auintus]

Someone suggested an axis of approval/disapproval and friendship/rivalry. Something about "view of you" vs. "view of your opinions", if I remember right. Sounded good.

[Orian Tabris]

Dragon Age meme makers on DeviantART disapproved -100.

I think that since disapproving can lead to rivalry (IRL), BioWare should bring back the approves/disapproves thing, for DAIII. If a companion gains rivalry points, it should say (for example) Guy-Who-Isn't-Cullen disapproves -10, whereupon Guy-Who-Isn't-Cullen gains 10 rivalry points.

[hexaligned]

Not a bit, I thought the rivalry system and the associated companion talents was much better.

[Iosev]

I'm not a fan of the disapproval mechanic, because it often results in the player experiencing less content simply for disagreeing with a particular companion. Obviously you can circumvent disapproval with gifts, but that results in companions treating you as if you get along, even if you didn't for the majority of your conversations.

While the friendship/rivalry system wasn't perfect, I think that it was a great step forward, and I hope that Bioware continues to refine companion interactions, rather than going back to the one used in DA:O.

[RosaAquafire]

Disapproval sucked

Where rivalry feels like a viable play choice, and most of my DA2 games end up with half rivals, half friends, DA:O's disapproval is 100% a punishment. No bonuses and very few dialogues made disapproval a flat out loss for your character. I had exactly one DA:O character I roleplayed get to -100 organically with a party member (Alistair), and only saw 2-3 different dialogues. Also, Alistair came off schizophrenic because one moment, he loathed me, and the next he was joking around with me. Also, he was still willing to go into combat by my side and take a bullet for me as my tank. Completely illogical.

But in DA2, rivalry completely changed the dynamic of the relationship, unlocked LOTS of new dialogue, was just as viable gameplay-wise as friendship, and actually made sense. Aveline respects me, she just doesn't like how lightly I take authority and how little I respect law and order. She's constantly frustrated by me, but she'll still defend my life. Completely unlike Alistair.

Disagreements with some characters will also cause them to bring up leaving the party. Anders' Act 2 personal quest results in him asking if you want him to leave, and if you tell him to, he does permanently. So it's not like that element is gone completely, just adapted.

I get the vague idea of what you're SAYTING -- that it's fun to see companions HATE you instead of just get frustrated by you -- but rivalry is an objectively better system for just about every angle. I hope that DA3 continues to evolve the system in a way that encourages more people to try rivalry paths. People who only do friendships in DA2 are totally missing out. Merrill, for example, is a much more interesting character on the rivalry path than the friendship one.

[HighMoon]

"Miss Disapproval" - I think I have a new nickname for Morrigan.

[ledod]

PorcelynDoll wrote...

I don't know. I liked Origins style a lot. DA2 was a lot like Paragon/Renegade but I found it hard to understand. It came off like Rival bad, Friend good.

Given that the rivalry insignia was an agressively red symbol did not help to diffuse that impression.

Perhaps, for the sake of clarity, the developer should re-evaluate how they symbolize the rivalry end of the spectrum. For example, as opposed to red, maybe yellow, or purple would lend itself to greater nuetrality of the rivalry state.

[ledod]

Golden-Rose wrote...

"Miss Disapproval" - I think I have a new nickname for Morrigan.

You give a traveler directions to Denerim.

*Morrigan: -20 approval* 

[Zubie]

I don't understand why people need to get "bonuses" from companions they ****** off.

[Chaos Lord Malek]

BanksHector wrote...

I do not miss it at all. The system they did in DA2 was better but I hope they keep trying to improve it. I would of loved to have DA2 sytem in DAO. I disagree with a lot of Morrigan views and wish I could of been a rival to her instead of having her hate me or keep having to spam gifts to her to get hit to like me.

This.

[Direwolf0294]

The disapproval system always felt a bit pointless to me with the gift system in place. You could argue with and insult your companions all you wanted and it didn't matter in the slightest because you could just spam gifts at them to make up the points.

[J.C. Blade]

I did. I missed it a lot. In DA2 everyone is Hawke's friend, because in this game rivalry is just another name for "tense friendship".

In DAO I knew exactly why Alistair hated my Warden, why Wynne and Leliana left, why Morrigan could get all in huff... my Warden was simply not a nice person. I could never understand why some of these people stayed with Hawke for a decade when their views clashed or went in completely opposite directions (I managed to rival everyone in one go while trying to play Hawke who simply didn't trust people and wanted nothing to do with them beyond completing immediate business in Act 1). I suppose it had something to do with game demanding and telling the story about a group of friends no matter how you might want to play it.

[J.C. Blade]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

The disapproval system always felt a bit pointless to me with the gift system in place. You could argue with and insult your companions all you wanted and it didn't matter in the slightest because you could just spam gifts at them to make up the points.

Someone on forums suggested that gifts could represent minor positive conversations you had with your companions. I actually like that idea. How much "points" you got depends how much headcanon talks you're willing to have with them

[Solmanian]

dissaprovement in DA:O was penalizing you for not agreeing with your companions,it was basically telling you: you're playing it wrong. Rivalry made sense, it was like a grudging respect. friendship gave bonuses for the whole squad, and rivalry gave bonuses only to the comp.

[Reznore57]

I don't know ,I think both system can be confusing and frustrating.

Sten in Da:O was great , but at first I didn't know how to speak "qunari" .By the end of the game , I didn't understand him , he was just there , being silent ignoring me.
Same with Morrigan ,she just didn't like me ,it took me some playthrough to get to know and appreciate her.

In DA2 rivalry was also awkward , playing a pro mage anti slavery ,Fenris didn't like me or respect me by the end.
Meaning i should have play pro slavery to gain his respect , which makes no sense.

I guess there's always going to be some problems , because both system rely on points , and you have only two option friend/rival like/don't like.

I think stuff like Alistair throwing a fit or being happy after Redcliff is really nice , when companions react directly to your actions.
I think their "hatred " or dislike should be specific to what you did in x quests and they tell you so.
Otherwise you end up with stuff like Anders calling you a templar lover in rivalry (even if it's not the case) or in Fenris' nowhere land .

[KingRoxas]

 

relhart wrote...
Not a bit, I thought the rivalry system and the associated companion talents was much better.

Asch Lavigne wrote...
I can't wait to see what the new friendship/rivalry (or whatever it is they're calling it now) is for 3.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I liked both, actually, and I hope DAIII has both.

A two-axis system would track both whether a character respected you and whether a character liked you. While the two are related, one does not necessary imply the other. You can like and respect someone (friendship), dislike but respect someone (rivalry), like but not particularly respect them, or hate their sodding guts (DA:O style disapprove).

[FINE HERE]

Solmanian wrote...

dissaprovement in DA:O was penalizing you for not agreeing with your companions,it was basically telling you: you're playing it wrong. Rivalry made sense, it was like a grudging respect. friendship gave bonuses for the whole squad, and rivalry gave bonuses only to the comp.

How does a rivalry make sense but disagreeing with a companion doesn't? It's not telling you you're playing the game wrong. It's telling you that the character doesn't like your PC's actions or words. It makes sense that they'd not like your character that way and those bonuses you don't get are because if it was real life, said person probably wouldn't fight their hardest for someone they don't care for.

In DA2, rivalry and friendship felt mostly like a way to add more dialog and bonuses without really impacting the gameplay. You could essentially tell Anders repeatedly to his face that all mages deserve to be in cages, lock fellow mages up in front of him, and STILL be able to romance him. That makes no sense to me. 

And I agree that rivalry is different to how you could treat the companions and still have them as your 'friends' in DA2.

Sometimes, it felt like this:
Hawke- Merril, you're an absolute monster, a self-centered person using your tribe's history as an excuse for your own curiousity, and a complete moron. With adorable eyes.
Merril- Aww, I love you, too, Hawke.

Hawke- Every mage is a dangerous time bomb waiting to go off. All of them need to be thrown into cages. All of them. You included Anders.
Anders- I heard you the first time.
Hawke- And yet you're still here...

DA3 needs to either have a way for companions to hate your PC and want to leave the party and/or try to kill your PC like in DA:O, or make a reason that people who hate your PC and who your PC clearly hates stay together. 'Rivalry' only works if they're on the same team(or 'squad' ) or have the same end goal, which DA2 didn't have.

[Fredward]

I still think that the friendship/disapproval thing is the way to go, just with a little more refining. I didn't LIKE gaining disapproval because not only did it lead to them potentially leaving/trying to kill me it also stopped them from getting bonuses. And it was even worse when they absolutely LOATHED you and they still decided to stick around, it made no sense to me. Or it did, because of the Blight being more important than personal matters but it wouldn't have rung true in ][.

[Mercedes-Benz]

I liked the system in the first game better.