93 réponses à ce sujet

[J.C. Blade]

FINE HERE wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

dissaprovement in DA:O was penalizing you for not agreeing with your companions,it was basically telling you: you're playing it wrong. Rivalry made sense, it was like a grudging respect. friendship gave bonuses for the whole squad, and rivalry gave bonuses only to the comp.

How does a rivalry make sense but disagreeing with a companion doesn't? It's not telling you you're playing the game wrong. It's telling you that the character doesn't like your PC's actions or words. It makes sense that they'd not like your character that way and those bonuses you don't get are because if it was real life, said person probably wouldn't fight their hardest for someone they don't care for.

In DA2, rivalry and friendship felt mostly like a way to add more dialog and bonuses without really impacting the gameplay. You could essentially tell Anders repeatedly to his face that all mages deserve to be in cages, lock fellow mages up in front of him, and STILL be able to romance him. That makes no sense to me. 

And I agree that rivalry is different to how you could treat the companions and still have them as your 'friends' in DA2.

Sometimes, it felt like this:
Hawke- Merril, you're an absolute monster, a self-centered person using your tribe's history as an excuse for your own curiousity, and a complete moron. With adorable eyes.
Merril- Aww, I love you, too, Hawke.

Hawke- Every mage is a dangerous time bomb waiting to go off. All of them need to be thrown into cages. All of them. You included Anders.
Anders- I heard you the first time.
Hawke- And yet you're still here...

DA3 needs to either have a way for companions to hate your PC and want to leave the party and/or try to kill your PC like in DA:O, or make a reason that people who hate your PC and who your PC clearly hates stay together. 'Rivalry' only works if they're on the same team(or 'squad' ) or have the same end goal, which DA2 didn't have.

This.

Rivalry would have made more sense in DAO where mutual hate and dislike could be suspended until the bigger threat, the Blight, has been dealt with.

[philippe willaume]

well, it does not matter what it is called what matter is that it has actual consequence.
In da:2 you can't really ****** off the companions and you don't really have to really have to make lots of efforts to get them on board.


Philippe

[Sacred_Fantasy]

brushyourteeth wrote...
But just because I'm curious, and old tired topics are old and tired, does anyone else miss companion disapproval? Were there instances that you loved or hated it in DA:O, or wish it had been available in DAII?

Morrigan disapprove my warden a lot. She even dumped him. At times I wish I could smack her in the face, but when she came back and told my warden, "I'm not going to sit idlely and watch you die..." My warden instantly fell in love with her. She isn't as though as she have thought, when it comes to love. She is still vulnerable as most average women do. And that make her worth my warden effort to go after her in Witch Hunt.

 I could purposely let her leave my party but then again I would miss the opportunity to have nice private chatting with her... And hold her warm and soft naked body in my arms every nights... She is alive and kicking... Unlike the scripted AI of Merril and Isabella who never seem real as a person. Especially with restricted one dimensional dialogues...  I never care for any of DA 2 companions. They do not worth any seconds of my time. They never have the time when I need to talk to them and when they start talking, they only talk about their personal quest as if I'm merely their tool. Be damn with all of them... sigh.. 

brushyourteeth wrote...

*EDIT: I also felt like DA:O did a great job of establishing what was, essentially, the perfect rivalry relationship with Sten. There was no way that guy was going to agree with your core values. But he respected and admired you in the end. I'd love to see more characters that you just *can't* convince to love you, but you can still have an amazing friendship with them.

Ah Sten :happy:

Warden: Don't you ever smile?
Sten: I am now.

He was a great companion who talked least and fight fiercely like a lion. A true warrior.

[Wulfram]

Messere Gaider has I believe suggested they're switching back to tracking like/dislike, because the Friendship/Rivalry wasn't really working out for multiple issues, and people still tended to think that Rivalry = Bad. But that the progression of the relationship wouldn't only happen through approval.

I'm concerned that blowing a bunch of resources on the disapproval relationship will stop them allowing for diversity in the positive one. Because I'm really not all that interested in hanging out with characters who dislike my PC.

[Gibb_Shepard]

I just thought it was ridiculous that you could berate the **** out of your companions, and they'd "respect" you more due to the rivalry mechanic. That **** really needs to be improved.

[fchopin]

DA2 system was rubbish for me, did not use it and just played the game by guessing the best of the options and did not care if i got friendship or hate.

Complete waste of time as far as i am concerned.

DAO system was good.

[The Elder King]

Both systems had problems. A double system with both approval/disapproval and friendship/rivarly (meaning that checks if you agree or not with their view of the world/important topic) would be better, in my opinion.
Bioware said that they'll return to the approval/disapproval system, although modified. I'm curious to see how it'll work and how it'll be different from DAO's system (and if they took something from DA2's system).

[ioannisdenton]

Spamming presents like yarn ball and your companions forgetting their anger at you was silly.
Eventually all characters were "approved". what was the point of that?
No penalty at all and really i have n't heard of any member dissaproving so low that he left.
Friendship / rivarly was one the things DA2 did xceptionally better.
As for how while rivaled you could be romanced it has a point. Dissagreeing to someone does not mean hate. At my current DA2 playthorugh i have a rivaled fenris , Merril and aveline , the others are friendshiped. I did not try to accomplish that, it just happened.
Sadly in DAO sometimes i was not roleplaying consistently in order not to make companions dissaprove.
The best system i think would be sadly a ME style in a way that:
while rivarling not deducting points from friendship and vice versa.
Also there could be a middle ground as well

[mechalynx]

I miss it. The dis-/approval messages were often hilarious, like when you threatened the Chnatry cleric in Lothering. Friendship/Rivalry meter wasa good idea, but felt somewhat flat.

[Patchwork]

Is either system necessary?

Why not just have a hidden tracker that monitors the PC's actions and measures them against the companions' values adjusting their dialogue accordingly? Both systems seem very artificial to me and after the first playthrough I find myself meta-gaming who to take on quests.

[Welsh Inferno]

Yeah I miss disapproval and the old system in general. Friendship/rivalry was flawed in a more annoying way than the approve/disapprove.

[Massakkolia]

Wulfram wrote...

Messere Gaider has I believe suggested they're switching back to tracking like/dislike, because the Friendship/Rivalry wasn't really working out for multiple issues, and people still tended to think that Rivalry = Bad. But that the progression of the relationship wouldn't only happen through approval.

I'm concerned that blowing a bunch of resources on the disapproval relationship will stop them allowing for diversity in the positive one. Because I'm really not all that interested in hanging out with characters who dislike my PC.

Actually the whole spectrum of relationships is what really deserves resources. I get your point about wanting more options within a positive relationship but at least my roleplaying experience would be greatly diminished if I was railroaded to be best friends with all companions in order to access the most content.

Bioware companions are usually representing such a wide range of ideology that it doesn't even make sense to be friends with all of them at the same time. That's why I'd prefer there to be at least two completely different directions the player can aim for with companions. I want both of those directions (whether they are approval/disapproval, firendhip/rivalry or something else) be fully developed relationship paths. It just adds so much replayability value and sense of agency to the game. Actually, the relationships were pretty much the only major decisions in DA2.

Plus, I want to have some spectacular verbal fights with my companions.

As to OP's question. Yeah, I kind of miss the disapproval, though I don't think it was completely absent from DA2. Some rivalry points were definitely an expression of disapproval. The only thing rivalry added was this grudging sense of respect to the whole "I disapprove of you" thing. I do think that the rivalry relationship could lean more heavily towards dislike (like in DA:O) but it should continue to be developed as fully as the friendship path.

Modifié par Ria, 12 novembre 2012 - 02:10 .

[ScarMK]

How I missed approval/disapproval. Both systems were flawed, but I preferred Origins much more.

[MichaelStuart]

I didn't miss it

[Firle Fanz]

Disapproval in DAO is frustrating - if the Warden doesn´t share the opinions of the companions, I´m locked out of further interactions.
What's the point of being able to disagree if that means the companion isn't going to be much more interesting than baggage from that point onward?

Spamming gifts is essentially mimicking the rivalry system - even if you disagree the relationship progresses further that way (which it naturally wouldn't). But then sometimes the dialogue doesn't add up.
I sorely wished for something like the friendship/rivalry system in DAO and was delighted when they included it in DA2.
Although the system does need refining, it's such a huge step forward - and I find the rivalry relationships very rewarding.
Some companions can leave you in DA2 - it's just tied to your actions and not the relationship-meter, which is the way I prefer it.

I'm not necessarily against a disapproval system in DA3 though if it would, like rivalry, offer a different path for the relationship (instead none at all).
It wouldn't have made much sense in DA2 - the companions all had their own life, so I guess they simply would have stopped meeting Hawke - but if there's a cause, like DAO, to unite them - why not? Could be very interesting. Just give me the opportunity to roleplay it.
If two meters - one for approval, one for opinions - could work, that would be, like some already wrote, the best option.

Plus, I want to have some spectacular verbal fights with my companions.

Also this. Having Fenris and Hawke snarl at each other is SO much fun...

Modifié par Firle Fanz, 12 novembre 2012 - 02:33 .

[QueenPurpleScrap]

I think the problem with the approval/disapproval system in DAO was that in order for the companion to be stronger they had to approve. It was supposed to be a reflection of your leadership skills. A bunch of gifts instead of conversation or action is bribery rather than leadership.

One of the problems with DA2 is that some of the things you could say were downright nasty and instead of rivalry/respect should have led to dislike/disapproval/bug off. It was also easier to know exactly where you stood in DAO. You could see if you were neutral at +20 or friendly at +60 (or whatever). With that red/blue slider I couldn't tell precisely where I stood. I would have liked to known if I was Friendship+50 or Friendship+40.

There was an aspect of the DA2 system I liked. That if a companion was far enough on one path, they got a bonus. And the bonus for friendship was different from that of rivalry. Perhaps, if they are going back to approval/disapproval they could do something similar instead of gaining bonuses to core attributes. There were four stages/levels of bonus available if a companion approves of you. What if they did something like this:
Healer: Approve: Healing spells on you are more effective +5% --> +10% --> +15% --> +20%
Disapprove: Healing self more effective +5% --> +10% --> +15% --> +20%
Defender: Approve: Takes more damage on your behalf +5% --> +10% --> +15% --> +20%
Disapprove: Shrugs off more damage on own behalf +5% --> +10% --> +15% --> +20%
Others: Approve: greater critical chance against enemies attacking you +5% --> +10% --> +15% --> +20%
Disapprove: greater critical chance against enemies attacking them +5% --> +10% --> +15% --> +20%

This way, if they approve of you and are inspired by you it is to your benefit. If they disapprove of you and don't leave because ostensibly you're on the same side they are stronger at protecting themselves. Which could possibly make for a stronger team, now that I think about it. At any rate, you might feel freer to play your character the way you want. If that means some of them leave or you force them out, so be it.

Different dialog choices could still show up based on previous conversations and current approval/disapproval level. I'm not sure what the technical problems were with the friendship/rivalry thing so maybe this wouldn't work.

[gosimmons]

I liked that characters could detest you for your actions.

The problem is that you could undo the disapproval over murder by buying everyone cupcakes.

[Rpgfantasyplayer]

I don't really have a problem with either system. The one thing I did like about DA2 was that I didn't get disapproval from a character that wasn't in my party at the time. In DA:O I would not take someone with me because I knew they wouldn't like my choice and I would still get disapproval. I knew they would react that way and that is why I didn't take them. So I did like the system better in DA2 in that respect.

[Potato Cat]

The problem with DAO was that I was realy two faced to my companions and just agreed with whatever they said to get their bonuses and was really mean about other companions behind their backs. It undermined my own character I felt, but DA2 made this better because I could openly side with mages in Fenris' company for instance, whereas he probably would have left me otherwise by the time I got half way through.

[Knight of Dane]

Not really.

I like part of the rivalry system, but I kinda wish that there would be points in the game where the characters would leave you over strange choises.

I can't think that if I put myself into Aveline's shoes that I would want to follow Hawke after sending Fenris off with his slaver despite what you might have thought of Fenris.

[TK514]

I didn't miss it, but my dislike is absolutely based on association, and to an extent implementation. I hate Morrigan. The Mabari had more brains and common sense than she did, so I would more often than not see 'Morrigan disapproves' for behaving in any manner that wasn't brain damaged or socially inept.

I suspect that with some tweaks, and technology that allows a development team to realize different shades of grey in intent and motive in conversation, it might be a workable system. But as long as technology and resources limit us to simplistic conversations, simplistic systems explicitly tied to the dialog wheel are probably best.

Modifié par TK514, 12 novembre 2012 - 06:18 .

[RosaAquafire]

Wulfram wrote...

Messere Gaider has I believe suggested they're switching back to tracking like/dislike, because the Friendship/Rivalry wasn't really working out for multiple issues, and people still tended to think that Rivalry = Bad. But that the progression of the relationship wouldn't only happen through approval.

I would love more clarification on what he meant by this ASAP, he said just enough to worry me without being conclusive in either direction. I think rivalry is the one thing I will be devastated to not have in DA3 and would be such a huge step backwards for roleplay and replay for those of us who mostly play for companion interaction ESPECIALLY for rivalry romances. I like every single rivalry romance better than every single friendship romance. Gotta love the tension driven slap-slap-kiss.

I really hope he clarifies this comment soon and we find out what's going on there. What *I* got out of it was just that the Friendship/Rivalry system will come back as it was, but interactions will no longer be gated by exact numeric scores, which sounds excellent to me. But he could just as well have meant that it's going back to DA:O's system which would be a big step back imo. Of everything that was changed in DA2, f/r was one system that was prety much objectively better Would be a huge bummer if the first thing they dropped from it would be the first real step up, while keeping human-only, voiced protag, dialogue wheel, and all the other debatable ones.

[xsdob]

I don't miss it because it was absolutley unimportant and more of a stupid waste of time.

"I hate you and I'm leaving!!! You are the worst person in the entire world and I hope the darkspawn rape you!!!!!!!"

*Gives gift*

"Nevermind, I instantly love you and will die for you in battle, great and powerful grey warden"

Remember kids, don't try and work out differences, just buy people off. That's how all friendships work.

[ScarMK]

It amazes me to no end at how people make it sound as if the gifts weren't optional to use and held guns to them point blank demanding the player to give them way.