289 réponses à ce sujet

[BioticArm]

Shampoohorn wrote...

BioticArm wrote...

Shampoohorn wrote...


@MuKen
I know, the knee-jerk butthurt rebuttals in this thread are quite funny. As is the hyperbolic whining about how unfair it is that they can't get up when 'dead' and completely surrounded by enemies.

gotta love the naysayers.
they oppose an action that benefits them in some respect,
yet they have no alternative to propose to the table
nor can they contribute healthily without resorting to "bashing".

It's just like politics.

"No" is a perfectly suitable alternative to "yes".  You've got no rationale for suggesting the change other than saying it's unfair or that you think it sucks.

I think the mechanic should stay as it is because it rewards team play and punishes lone wolfing.. in a coop multiplayer game.  But hey, ignore that line of reasoning and keep calling my comments trollish if that's the limit of your argument.  Let the butthurt flow through you.

Thank you for finally responding with a hard argument that actually gives credence to your stand.
No thank you, for resorting to using the word "butthurt", must you sink so low in your vocabulary?

"Unfair" is a valid reason for suggesting the change. "Rising attacks" are used to give breathing space when you're down. In combat situations, one does not just "stand up" and really slowly at that. A BSN'er posted here that the camera seems to malfunction a bit, and inhibits your ability to control your character properly after a revive. "Lone wolfing", in my opinion, is already "punished" by the limited number of medigels you have to revive yourself. You can't go down every wave. A knockback or a decent stagger immunity will help, somewhat. But if you're hemmed in, you will be hemmed in despite the knockback or immunity, and you wouldn't be able to fight your way out of it. What we're asking for is to give us a fighting chance when we revive. Is that too much to ask? Just a small amount of breathing space that allows us to go out hard or to go down hard. Why deny the soldier that right?

[DullahansXMark]

12323432543 wrote...
.

How do you log in?

[Shampoohorn]

BioticArm wrote...

Thank you for finally responding with a hard argument that actually gives credence to your stand.
No thank you, for resorting to using the word "butthurt", must you sink so low in your vocabulary?

"Unfair" is a valid reason for suggesting the change. "Rising attacks" are used to give breathing space when you're down. In combat situations, one does not just "stand up" and really slowly at that. A BSN'er posted here that the camera seems to malfunction a bit, and inhibits your ability to control your character properly after a revive. "Lone wolfing", in my opinion, is already "punished" by the limited number of medigels you have to revive yourself. You can't go down every wave. A knockback or a decent stagger immunity will help, somewhat. But if you're hemmed in, you will be hemmed in despite the knockback or immunity, and you wouldn't be able to fight your way out of it. What we're asking for is to give us a fighting chance when we revive. Is that too much to ask? Just a small amount of breathing space that allows us to go out hard or to go down hard. Why deny the soldier that right?

Unfair is not a reason or even a justification.  It's a feeling.  Most of your verbage is only justification of why you feel it's unfair.  My point that the current mechanic promotes team play is at least relevant to game design. 

The game currently gives you a bit of damage resistance when you revive: 75% (Bronze) / 50% (Silver) / 25% (Gold) for 2.5 seconds.  In addition, all classes can attempt a heavy melee or possibly dodge as a rising attack, which will grant them additional damage resistance and maybe a bit more space to escape.  So you've already got some help from Bioware, but you don't think it's enough?

If you go down in a high risk position, then there needs to be consequences. 

[BioticArm]

Shampoohorn wrote...

BioticArm wrote...

Thank you for finally responding with a hard argument that actually gives credence to your stand.
No thank you, for resorting to using the word "butthurt", must you sink so low in your vocabulary?

"Unfair" is a valid reason for suggesting the change. "Rising attacks" are used to give breathing space when you're down. In combat situations, one does not just "stand up" and really slowly at that. A BSN'er posted here that the camera seems to malfunction a bit, and inhibits your ability to control your character properly after a revive. "Lone wolfing", in my opinion, is already "punished" by the limited number of medigels you have to revive yourself. You can't go down every wave. A knockback or a decent stagger immunity will help, somewhat. But if you're hemmed in, you will be hemmed in despite the knockback or immunity, and you wouldn't be able to fight your way out of it. What we're asking for is to give us a fighting chance when we revive. Is that too much to ask? Just a small amount of breathing space that allows us to go out hard or to go down hard. Why deny the soldier that right?

Unfair is not a reason or even a justification.  It's a feeling.  Most of your verbage is only justification of why you feel it's unfair.  My point that the current mechanic promotes team play is at least relevant to game design. 

The game currently gives you a bit of damage resistance when you revive: 75% (Bronze) / 50% (Silver) / 25% (Gold) for 2.5 seconds.  In addition, all classes can attempt a heavy melee or possibly dodge as a rising attack, which will grant them additional damage resistance and maybe a bit more space to escape.  So you've already got some help from Bioware, but you don't think it's enough?

If you go down in a high risk position, then there needs to be consequences. 

Please read the topic. There is damage resistance. What the problem is, is STAGGER resistance.
Have you noticed the odd camera angle makes it so that your dodges are not "calibrated" to your controls?
The first and last line is the only thing that expressed "emotion" or "feeling". Please read.
I agree with consequences, but let the consequences be reasonable.

[xj3ewok]

SimiSideways wrote...

Agree with all. I have another to do with Ops Packs being used up as you die:

Make it so you can use them while you're using abilities, 'cause it happens so often that I end up spamming the Ops Pack to save myself just after I use an ability or something.

But because of that Global Cooldown I die and waste an Ops Pack.

yes to op and yes to this^

[ShinobiMato]

4ut0b4hn5child27 wrote...

Medigel---> whiplashed by Dragoons

/signed

Ugh this!
signed

[BioticArm]

Just realized that the best Medic = Kroguard.
*Squadmate down*
*Biotic Charge* "MMMMMMMMMMMRRRAH!!!!"
*Revive...* "STOP WHINING!!!!"
*Heavy Melee* "MWAAAAAAARAAAAAH!!!!"
*Biotic Charge* *Rev'd squadmate breakdances awkwardly as Kroguard buys him time*

[x BLAKK x]

How about a spawn shield after being revived or medigel, not asking for much maybe a 3 or 5 second window to get behind cover.

[Yate]

BOOYAH

[Necrotron]

The inclusion of the completely unnecessary addition to Geth Prime turrets to have Incinerate stagger has made reviving around Geth Primes pretty much pointless.

Revive -> Incinerate Stagger -> Prime Stunlock -> Other Geth Stunlock -> Dead Again

You really shouldn't be able to be grenade/incinerate staggered before you ever have any chance to react after using a medi-gel. They need to add a 1 second immunity or something.

[Oni Changas]

Stagger and 2 second invulnerability. Revived by a turret? Take it.
Revived near a prime/Hunter/Marauder? Take it harder.
Revived by a Dragoon and Phantom? Take it up the ass.

I ALL CAPS SIGN

[Darthvero]

/Signed

[MuKen]

BioticArm wrote...

Please read the topic. There is damage resistance. What the problem is, is STAGGER resistance.
Have you noticed the odd camera angle makes it so that your dodges are not "calibrated" to your controls?
The first and last line is the only thing that expressed "emotion" or "feeling". Please read.
I agree with consequences, but let the consequences be reasonable.

If you add stagger resistance (and I assume sync-kill immunity as most of you are requesting) to the existing damage resistance, then in all but the most ridiculous what-are-you-a-moron-why-did-you-charge-into-this-crowd situations, you will be able to just run to cover.  Meaning if your team has a good medic like a duration infiltrator or a kroguard or whatever, it will be nigh-impossible to lose.

Where are these consequences you agree with?  A majority of downs should be real downs.  As it is, already the  ajority of downs are successfully revived.  The proposed change would make that a VAST majority.

Modifié par MuKen, 20 novembre 2012 - 02:40 .

[Mad Scientist]

nicola_nibhroin wrote...

Oh there's nothing quite like being Husked before you've even finished standing up.

Don't forget to add the Marauder Elbow o' Death ™ to that list.

Oh god, this 100x. Marauders need to have a good beating with good ole nerf bat. It's beyond my comprehension how you can headshot them at point blank range only to get elbow'd, staggered and shot to hell with their Phaeston XX all in a spawn of 1.5 sec.

[BioticArm]

MuKen wrote...

BioticArm wrote...

Please read the topic. There is damage resistance. What the problem is, is STAGGER resistance.
Have you noticed the odd camera angle makes it so that your dodges are not "calibrated" to your controls?
The first and last line is the only thing that expressed "emotion" or "feeling". Please read.
I agree with consequences, but let the consequences be reasonable.

If you add stagger resistance (and I assume sync-kill immunity as most of you are requesting) to the existing damage resistance, then in all but the most ridiculous what-are-you-a-moron-why-did-you-charge-into-this-crowd situations, you will be able to just run to cover.  Meaning if your team has a good medic like a duration infiltrator or a kroguard or whatever, it will be nigh-impossible to lose.

Where are these consequences you agree with?  A majority of downs should be real downs.  As it is, already the  ajority of downs are successfully revived.  The proposed change would make that a VAST majority.

Even with stagger immunity (which would last probably a decent 2 seconds, theoretically?), if you are surrounded by a mass of bodies, say the favorite 3 Dragoon boy band, you still won't be able to 100% make it out of that situation. You can't dodge out of a situation when you're surrounded with no way out, forcing you to decisively hammer away at one Dragoon to give you a way out. Don't do it fast enough, miss, or what not, and by the time your stagger immunity and damage reduction runs out, it's back to square one.

Please do not be so close-minded.

Please read. Remember I said that when you're hemmed in, you're hemmed in. Period. If the odds really are against your favor, no amount of the stagger/DR will matter. But at least it gives you that 0.1% moment of intense decision and combat, and the satisfaction of making the right decision if you do make it out alive.

[BioticArm]

Mad Scientist wrote...

nicola_nibhroin wrote...

Oh there's nothing quite like being Husked before you've even finished standing up.

Don't forget to add the Marauder Elbow o' Death ™ to that list.

Oh god, this 100x. Marauders need to have a good beating with good ole nerf bat. It's beyond my comprehension how you can headshot them at point blank range only to get elbow'd, staggered and shot to hell with their Phaeston XX all in a spawn of 1.5 sec.

The Marauders deserve a thread of their own. 

[MVestala]

A few second window to be invulnerable after you've been revived would also be appreciated.

[Shrakelle]

+1, this happened to me today.. Got up, had no control over my character, followed by instakill.

[ZLurps]

BioticArm wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

I'm bit conflicted about this.

Most of the time I have get myself cornered it's my own fault, I can usually tell where I picked Silver tactic without thinking when playing Gold - > Staggered / whatever to death no and stim packs are not much use.

That said, getting staggered by Geth Bomber and almost instantly hit by 3 rockets... or I can make step out of situation and then Prime's drone staggers me, another step but bombers are already there gang staggering me and then Hunters or Pyro's.... Those Cerberus Dragoons can make things so fu*king sad that it becomes hilarious really.

So, I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right, but wonder if less stagger might ease the situation.

I see what you mean. 
Miscalculation is indeed costly. But I prefer that when I get up to fight back, I actually do have a fighting chance. Knockback or stagger/sync-kill immunity doesn't mean that we can recklessly charge in. If we're swarmed overwhelmingly, it'll be because of sheer number or overwhelming force, not because of "we're doomed from the start". It's hard to explain right now, but I do hope I get my point across 

Played a lot of Gold yesterday 15 - 17 matches I think. Lot's of Tuchanca and some U/U, all PUGs.
I haven't played lots of Gold before, I'm usually bottom of the list, but get my 50 kills (there were couple of worse matches), often get revive medal and do objectives. I usually score bit around 50 . 60 k. Topped score board once in London/Reapers with over 100k, then, team was great.

I have played a lot of Gold/Geth and Gold/Cerberus recently to finish Combat Mastery for those and completing map mastery at the same time. According to my manifest I have 286 Gold waves completed, so really I'm pretty green on Gold.

When I started playing Gold games I soon noticed that it's not a good idea to equip gear when you search games because you may enter in middle of game where team just doesn't have what it takes to complete Gold match and I'm not good enough to carry myself, no matter the equipment. Then if I found a lobby I always equipped consumables, or left if it didn't looked like it's not going to work. I experienced Gold games both by using and not using consumables. I played Turian Havoc, Argus X and Black Widow VI, swapped Black Widow for Valiant II for test drive and once tried CAR X instead of Argus.

I don't disagree but I still wonder what kind of things add to issue.

HP bloat is IMO very obvious, especially Geth bombers. 3 shots from Black Widow VI to take one down AFTER it's shields are depleted, unless you hit the "eye". They come in waves and it's very easy to have one stagger you from behind because they are so silent. I recall they got me couple of times on FBG. I saw from cam there were 3 of them behind me and 2 Hunters, I tried to gel myself out of situations and equipping a rocket but stagger, stagger, stagger...

Last night on FBW, Cerberus, I revived someone who was trying to descend the stairs to landing zones 3 or 4 times in a row, jump in, revive, jump out, only that player could get one step before being staggered by first by Dragoons, then Atlas rocket or something else. I was getting hit a lot used all my stims, tried to get some distance to get my shields back, got staggered by something and then instakilled by Phantom. Similar things have happened in other matches, it's been damn embarrassing to be revied 3 times in a row because I can't escape the situation.

Few things that I think contribute to problem (with my limited experience).

- Lag and FOV issues become much worse on Gold because there's less margin for error. Particularily when using stim pack or power to escape from situation and it doesn't kick in before you are down, which mean more revives and health pack use.

- HP bloat. If it would be easier to clear out some of the staggering enemies revive situation would be easier. I guess the idea is people used a lot of their best consumables, rail amps and ammo to compensate.

- Frequency of staggering attacks, Geth Bombers and Dragoons being the biggest issues IMO though it's easier to headshot Dragoon which helps a little, don't have much experience of Collectors Gold yet though.
 

So I agree with you, that something should be done. I have noticed that there are players who don't get staggered that much at the first place, but still, I fear a little that people are going to quit * because things are getting too frustrating.

EDIT: * I mean of course there is always people moving to other games and new players coming in when new releases comes to market, say trilogy edition in this case. Even we have better weapons, people starting with Avenger I and so on might find learning curve really steep with introduction of new stagger units.

Modifié par ZLurps, 20 novembre 2012 - 12:27 .

[IllusiveManJr]

I don't mean to sound like an elitist arrogant dick, but this would help PUG games a lot.
/signed

[CronicleChicken]

Signed

[Geakker]

/singed

Though it would make the game a lot easier. If this is implemented it I believe the game needs some compensation.

[BioticArm]

Geakker wrote...

/singed

Though it would make the game a lot easier. If this is implemented it I believe the game needs some compensation.

Increasing the mook number would work

[MuKen]

BioticArm wrote...
Even with stagger immunity (which would last probably a decent 2 seconds, theoretically?), if you are surrounded by a mass of bodies, say the favorite 3 Dragoon boy band, you still won't be able to 100% make it out of that situation. You can't dodge out of a situation when you're surrounded with no way out, forcing you to decisively hammer away at one Dragoon to give you a way out. Don't do it fast enough, miss, or what not, and by the time your stagger immunity and damage reduction runs out, it's back to square one.

Please do not be so close-minded.

Please read. Remember I said that when you're hemmed in, you're hemmed in. Period. If the odds really are against your favor, no amount of the stagger/DR will matter. But at least it gives you that 0.1% moment of intense decision and combat, and the satisfaction of making the right decision if you do make it out alive.

Which happens how often?  You are proposing that you only ever really go down if you go down in a crowd big enough to bodily block you in.  By far most downs will be easily revived and recovered.  The vast majority of what is currently considered a "mistake" becomes "no big deal".  You say you agree there should be consequences for mistakes, but I'm not seeing it.  My point is that this is a DRASTIC reduction in overall game difficulty, probably far more than any other buff I've ever seen suggested on this board.

And simply calling the other side close-minded in any discussion contributes nothing.  I could just as easily say you are being close minded from my point of view, but I understand that it is counterproductive.

Modifié par MuKen, 21 novembre 2012 - 01:20 .