BioticArm wrote...
Geakker wrote...
/singed
Though it would make the game a lot easier. If this is implemented it I believe the game needs some compensation.
Increasing the mook number would work
MuKen wrote...
BioticArm wrote...
Even with stagger immunity (which would last probably a decent 2 seconds, theoretically?), if you are surrounded by a mass of bodies, say the favorite 3 Dragoon boy band, you still won't be able to 100% make it out of that situation. You can't dodge out of a situation when you're surrounded with no way out, forcing you to decisively hammer away at one Dragoon to give you a way out. Don't do it fast enough, miss, or what not, and by the time your stagger immunity and damage reduction runs out, it's back to square one.
Please do not be so close-minded.
Please read. Remember I said that when you're hemmed in, you're hemmed in. Period. If the odds really are against your favor, no amount of the stagger/DR will matter. But at least it gives you that 0.1% moment of intense decision and combat, and the satisfaction of making the right decision if you do make it out alive.
Which happens how often? You are proposing that you only ever really go down if you go down in a crowd big enough to bodily block you in. By far most downs will be easily revived and recovered. The vast majority of what is currently considered a "mistake" becomes "no big deal". You say you agree there should be consequences for mistakes, but I'm not seeing it. My point is that this is a DRASTIC reduction in overall game difficulty, probably far more than any other buff I've ever seen suggested on this board.
And simply calling the other side close-minded in any discussion contributes nothing. I could just as easily say you are being close minded from my point of view, but I understand that it is counterproductive.
But then I remember that the computer can handle only a set amount of units at a time.
Geakker wrote...
BioticArm wrote...
Geakker wrote...
/singed
Though it would make the game a lot easier. If this is implemented it I believe the game needs some compensation.
Increasing the mook number would work
So making the game harder but more fair. Sounds good to me
BioticArm wrote...
MuKen wrote...
...snip...
Which happens how often? You are proposing that you only ever really go down if you go down in a crowd big enough to bodily block you in. By far most downs will be easily revived and recovered. The vast majority of what is currently considered a "mistake" becomes "no big deal". You say you agree there should be consequences for mistakes, but I'm not seeing it. My point is that this is a DRASTIC reduction in overall game difficulty, probably far more than any other buff I've ever seen suggested on this board.
And simply calling the other side close-minded in any discussion contributes nothing. I could just as easily say you are being close minded from my point of view, but I understand that it is counterproductive.
I apologize for calling you closed-minded. You haven't really come out with good arguments like that above upon which we could discuss for better enlightenment. All I heard were "nays", hence the backhand verbal slap. Again, my apologies.
Please note that I did consider the difficulty factor. I've been actually waiting for someone to say a comment like, "If that's going to happen, maybe they should do "X" so that difficulty can be compensated". I'm not sure if spawns of the mooks increasing might work. I'll accept dealing with a buttload of Nemesis.
I'm for adding some stagger resistance/immunity.
And I am also for balancing the difficulty to compensate.
I just didn't say that second line for the title.
I believe that the game can still be challenging even with Stagger Resistance.
Modifié par ZLurps, 21 novembre 2012 - 12:40 .
ZLurps wrote...
Played a lot of Gold yesterday 15 - 17 matches I think. Lot's of Tuchanca and some U/U, all PUGs.
I haven't played lots of Gold before, I'm usually bottom of the list, but get my 50 kills (there were couple of worse matches), often get revive medal and do objectives. I usually score bit around 50 . 60 k. Topped score board once in London/Reapers with over 100k, then, team was great.
I have played a lot of Gold/Geth and Gold/Cerberus recently to finish Combat Mastery for those and completing map mastery at the same time. According to my manifest I have 286 Gold waves completed, so really I'm pretty green on Gold.
When I started playing Gold games I soon noticed that it's not a good idea to equip gear when you search games because you may enter in middle of game where team just doesn't have what it takes to complete Gold match and I'm not good enough to carry myself, no matter the equipment. Then if I found a lobby I always equipped consumables, or left if it didn't looked like it's not going to work. I experienced Gold games both by using and not using consumables. I played Turian Havoc, Argus X and Black Widow VI, swapped Black Widow for Valiant II for test drive and once tried CAR X instead of Argus.
I don't disagree but I still wonder what kind of things add to issue.
HP bloat is IMO very obvious, especially Geth bombers. 3 shots from Black Widow VI to take one down AFTER it's shields are depleted, unless you hit the "eye". They come in waves and it's very easy to have one stagger you from behind because they are so silent. I recall they got me couple of times on FBG. I saw from cam there were 3 of them behind me and 2 Hunters, I tried to gel myself out of situations and equipping a rocket but stagger, stagger, stagger...
Last night on FBW, Cerberus, I revived someone who was trying to descend the stairs to landing zones 3 or 4 times in a row, jump in, revive, jump out, only that player could get one step before being staggered by first by Dragoons, then Atlas rocket or something else. I was getting hit a lot used all my stims, tried to get some distance to get my shields back, got staggered by something and then instakilled by Phantom. Similar things have happened in other matches, it's been damn embarrassing to be revied 3 times in a row because I can't escape the situation.
Few things that I think contribute to problem (with my limited experience).
- Lag and FOV issues become much worse on Gold because there's less margin for error. Particularily when using stim pack or power to escape from situation and it doesn't kick in before you are down, which mean more revives and health pack use.
- HP bloat. If it would be easier to clear out some of the staggering enemies revive situation would be easier. I guess the idea is people used a lot of their best consumables, rail amps and ammo to compensate.
- Frequency of staggering attacks, Geth Bombers and Dragoons being the biggest issues IMO though it's easier to headshot Dragoon which helps a little, don't have much experience of Collectors Gold yet though.
So I agree with you, that something should be done. I have noticed that there are players who don't get staggered that much at the first place, but still, I fear a little that people are going to quit * because things are getting too frustrating.
EDIT: * I mean of course there is always people moving to other games and new players coming in when new releases comes to market, say trilogy edition in this case. Even we have better weapons, people starting with Avenger I and so on might find learning curve really steep with introduction of new stagger units.
ZLurps wrote...
@BioticArm
Rarely I see ninjaed's with wall of text but...
On topic: I don't know if there are that many options regarding compensation.
Adding more HP to enemies or replace mooks with boss enemies, both are basically HP bloat, in one form and another. This would result weapons and gear becoming more important than player skill.
Making enemies faster, and there problems are if players hardware can handle that and that narrow FOV and fast tempo already causes motion sickness, so IMO this won't fly either.
Nerfing players shields... maybe adjusting how fast they come back up? Would make melee builds unusable, so no go IMO.
BioticArm wrote...
I apologize for calling you closed-minded. You haven't really come out with good arguments like that above upon which we could discuss for better enlightenment. All I heard were "nays", hence the backhand verbal slap. Again, my apologies.
Please note that I did consider the difficulty factor. I've been actually waiting for someone to say a comment like, "If that's going to happen, maybe they should do "X" so that difficulty can be compensated". I'm not sure if spawns of the mooks increasing might work. I'll accept dealing with a buttload of Nemesis.
I'm for adding some stagger resistance/immunity.
And I am also for balancing the difficulty to compensate.
I just didn't say that second line for the title.
I believe that the game can still be challenging even with Stagger Resistance.
Modifié par MuKen, 21 novembre 2012 - 04:52 .
BioticArm wrote...
ZLurps wrote...
@BioticArm
Rarely I see ninjaed's with wall of text but...
On topic: I don't know if there are that many options regarding compensation.
Adding more HP to enemies or replace mooks with boss enemies, both are basically HP bloat, in one form and another. This would result weapons and gear becoming more important than player skill.
Making enemies faster, and there problems are if players hardware can handle that and that narrow FOV and fast tempo already causes motion sickness, so IMO this won't fly either.
Nerfing players shields... maybe adjusting how fast they come back up? Would make melee builds unusable, so no go IMO.
What about...
New enemy abilities? (none on my head right now)
Increasing Spawn Count?
What's your take on that?
Modifié par ZLurps, 21 novembre 2012 - 06:29 .
MuKen wrote...
BioticArm wrote...
I apologize for calling you closed-minded. You haven't really come out with good arguments like that above upon which we could discuss for better enlightenment. All I heard were "nays", hence the backhand verbal slap. Again, my apologies.
Please note that I did consider the difficulty factor. I've been actually waiting for someone to say a comment like, "If that's going to happen, maybe they should do "X" so that difficulty can be compensated". I'm not sure if spawns of the mooks increasing might work. I'll accept dealing with a buttload of Nemesis.
I'm for adding some stagger resistance/immunity.
And I am also for balancing the difficulty to compensate.
I just didn't say that second line for the title.
I believe that the game can still be challenging even with Stagger Resistance.
That's an even more back-handed apology, but moving on.
Rather than make a huge drop in difficulty to resolve some feeling that a situation is "not fair" (which isn't even in consensus across the entire community), and then having to do a bunch of other things to compensate, why not remove the feelings of unfairness in a way that doesn't nerf the difficulty? If anything, the game needs to be bumped up a little more in difficulty from where it is now to balance the general power creep that has been happening.
Make it so all enemies execute right away, and can do so at range by shooting your corpse. This is how it happens in a lot of other fps games, when you are 'downed' they are still shooting at you and will down you permanently if somebody doesn't manage to get you up right away. If they did that here, then by and large you will not get situations where you are revived and immediately get sync-killed or stun-locked, because if they are there to do that they will have just executed you already.
If it worked this way in the first place, I doubt anybody would have ever complained about the 'unfairness' of the system.
ZLurps wrote...
Not trying to be nosy here, just curious. Does killing a mook in other MP games take entire clip from AR for example?
Modifié par MuKen, 21 novembre 2012 - 07:23 .
MuKen wrote...
That's an even more back-handed apology, but moving on.
Rather than make a huge drop in difficulty to resolve some feeling that a situation is "not fair" (which isn't even in consensus across the entire community), and then having to do a bunch of other things to compensate, why not remove the feelings of unfairness in a way that doesn't nerf the difficulty? If anything, the game needs to be bumped up a little more in difficulty from where it is now to balance the general power creep that has been happening.
Make it so all enemies execute right away, and can do so at range by shooting your corpse. This is how it happens in a lot of other fps games, when you are 'downed' they are still shooting at you and will down you permanently if somebody doesn't manage to get you up right away. If they did that here, then by and large you will not get situations where you are revived and immediately get sync-killed or stun-locked, because if they are there to do that they will have just executed you already.
If it worked this way in the first place, I doubt anybody would have ever complained about the 'unfairness' of the system.
BioticArm wrote...
Oh, sorry if it came out that way. Wasn't my intent.
Maybe not all enemies? Trooper classes must stomp, Shielded guys do the shooting?
Someone mentioned decreasing the frequency of stun-lock attacks by mooks. Perhaps, a "small" re-write in their programming that makes them do less stagger attacks around you when you're revving. What's your take on that?
MuKen wrote...
ZLurps wrote...
Not trying to be nosy here, just curious. Does killing a mook in other MP games take entire clip from AR for example?
Depends on the game, the first Gears horde mode, enemies took a ton of damage to kill on high difficulty levels. If you didn't get a good gun, running out of ammo because it takes so much to down enemies was a serious deal. On the flip side they'd take you down in no time at all, there were no shield or health gates to help you out (letting someone get close enough to toss an ink grenade into your group often spelled disaster). Then, you have a limit of 3 downs per wave before you're out permanently, and even on those 3 downs, like I said people are shooting you while down which resulted in permadown if teammates didn't pick you up first. ME3 action borrowed a lot from GOW, I think it's reasonable to say they used it as an example when building this game, and basically softened the kill/down mechanics a lot by giving you infinite downs and medigels to pick yourself up if nobody else is around.
The first time Halo had something similar, firefight, enemies also had a ton of health at high difficulty levels. And your whole team shared a "life" budget that didn't reset between waves, you just got a few back over time. Getting downed and using up those lives was seriously bad for the team, not like here where if you get downed somebody just picks you up or you use one of your personal medigels.
Rainbow 6 terrorist hunt, no they didn't have a ton of health, but neither did you. The whole game makes it so anybody out in the open getting shot would pretty much die immediately. And you had a 3 life limit and NO opportunity to be picked up after a down.
Modifié par ZLurps, 22 novembre 2012 - 02:03 .
ZLurps wrote...
Thanks. I need to dig some info about these. I'm not sure how well they compare to ME MP. Did players needed to grind to unlock weapons that woud actually be like effective on higher difficulties, were there that many weapons to choose from to begin with? for example. Did those titles had enemies that could kill you by shoot you when their back was turned to you?
Then, I see what you mean but no matter how much BW borrowed from other games, IMO they were right on the money with their ideas for ME MP. Their fan base isn't exactly CoD or GoW crowd, even many who enjoys BW titles also play those games. So they figured out how to make multiplayer shooter that is fun for people whom many have roots in very opposite kind of games, turn based games and PnP RPG's. Especially against that background what they achieved with ME MP is remarkable and I wouldn't necessarily break that formula.
MuKen wrote...
Certainly they do not compare, my point was not to raise any of these games up as being better than ME3. After all, I am here playing ME3 hundreds of hours in, and not still playing those games.
My point was only to say that the down mechanic we have is by far the easiest of this genre, with the exception of maybe Borderlands. That the "unfair" situations only come up as a result of an indulgence that most games wouldn't give us (you wouldn't be able to revive into those situations in the first place). And that further softening that mechanic would make an already easy game even easier.
They continue to make the game harder over time to keep up with the power creep players are getting, and do so by raising stats, enemy counts, adding types with multiple enemy waves, etc. Perhaps instead of raising difficulty by just bumping numbers all day, they should look into taking away some of the unusual and non-sensical safety nets they've put in.
Modifié par ZLurps, 24 novembre 2012 - 10:54 .
MuKen wrote...
Certainly they do not compare, my point was not to raise any of these games up as being better than ME3. After all, I am here playing ME3 hundreds of hours in, and not still playing those games.
My point was only to say that the down mechanic we have is by far the easiest of this genre, with the exception of maybe Borderlands. That the "unfair" situations only come up as a result of an indulgence that most games wouldn't give us (you wouldn't be able to revive into those situations in the first place). And that further softening that mechanic would make an already easy game even easier.
They continue to make the game harder over time to keep up with the power creep players are getting, and do so by raising stats, enemy counts, adding types with multiple enemy waves, etc. Perhaps instead of raising difficulty by just bumping numbers all day, they should look into taking away some of the unusual and non-sensical safety nets they've put in.
I pray for a middle-way.
STARROAD Rdam wrote...
Hi, would not it be better if the objective's coverage would be rather middle of the field where for example when Colleecters impossible word by the Scions to do.
But the lost every time of the Ops pack is terrible.
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