199 réponses à ce sujet

[DcIhNaGv3z]

The emphasis on the game has been, and will continue to be, to encourage players to purchase premium specter packs. The thing is, every player has access to biotic/tech combos, whereas not every player has access to the ultra-rare Harrier/Typhoon/Particle Beam X. So if they make powers too effective, then no one would ever buy the PSP.
I just wish some ultra-rare gear would become available for “caster” classes. Like biotic abilities can’t be staggered/stun locked. Or biotic/tech abilities can break the anti-combo shield.

[Feneckus]

Ashen Earth wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

I don't mind their bubbles. What bothers me is that 90% of the playerbase has no idea how to deal with them and will trigger the bubbles by doing something stupid. Cryo Blast on a phantom ? Wow, awesome, thanks a lot ...

That's actually not a bad idea, because you still debuff the Phantom and it will sit perfectly still while you shoot it.


... Not that most people who mindlessly trigger those abilities are thinking that far ahead.

It IS a bad idea. If you Cryo Blast a phantom while a Shadow is in the middle of a shadow strike, she'll be toe to toe with a phantom instead of killing her immediately. Any grenade class will be at a disavantage. Unless the Cryo Blast is immediately followed by a Claymore headshot, you're doing more harm than good since the phantom would have been dead quicker had she not used her bubble.

And unfortunately, Cryo Blast is often followed by Carnifex shots or something. Besides, it's not like phantoms need the debuff.

[Conduit0]

Ashen Earth wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

Learn how to not trigger the bubbles, ok sure thats a great idea, except that it completely ignores the fact that the mere existance of the bubbles puts casters at a significant disadvantage. It shoehorns them into specific weapons and prevents them from maxamizing their potential by severly limiting what powers they can use and when.
What makes the immunity bubbles all that more obnoxious is the fact that weaponcentric classes surpassed power classes in damage pontential long ago.

The disadvantage is there, but it's not as significant as the hyperbole on this board would suggest.

If anything, it's a testament to the fact that 200% CD bonus and a crappy weapon is not the be all end all standard that power classes should be striving for. The "powers vs weapons" mentality is half the problem, and anyone with a half decent manifest can use both with every class in the game .

The point is the disadvantage shouldn't be there at all.

Why not? Enemies that nullify certain player abilities put an emphasis on teamwork, or otherwise force the individual players to be versatile.

So wheres the disadvantage to weapon classes to emphasis teamwork or versatility? Oh wait, there isn't one. Weapon classes can be entirely one trick ponies and still be 100% effective against all enemies. Infact as something like a Destroyer or TGI the only strategy you need is, "Apply bullets to face" and you'll achieve glorious victory against any enemy that crosses your path.

[Fortack]

Apl_J wrote...

What? One enemy on 3 of 4 factions can block powers sometimes, so that makes you a weapons platform with occasional power usage? All it takes is something light, like a Pirahna. Part of the game is proper preperation. 200% IS Overrated; I'll say it again, learn to find the sweetspot between weapon/power use.

I totally agree about your points about using a decent weapon and cooldowns. The problem, however, is that those bubbles make it more or less irrelevant who or what you're playing.

My Slayer, for example, wields the Piranha. But I don't go and play a Slayer to shoot stuff for (reasonably) long times. I use him to charge around, melee and palm blast. The main function of the Piranha is to ignite enemies with Incendiary ammo to create FEs all over the place - the weapon is used to increase the effectiveness of his powers. I can't use him the way I build him against those enemies. It's not a game-breaking problem, but IMO it does suck. I could live with bubbles giving a DR so both powers and weapons are affected. That's a fairer deal and makes more sense too.

Modifié par Fortack, 12 novembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[Black Phantom]

His Guardness wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...


By refusing to use your best weapons when you literally lose nothing from doing so, you are imposing a handicap on yourself. Every time you're forced to kite a Praetorian around the map for 2 minutes while trying to strip it's barrier with powers alone, it is your own fault due only to your own refusal to use all of the tools given to you and putting all of your eggs in one basket.... so to speak. Versatility should be rewarded, and lame 1 trick pony playstyles should be punished. If you don't like having to be forced to rely on teammates to cover the weaknesses you willingly imposed on yourself, then do something about it.

If you didn't have any of those weapons unlocked, you might actually have a respectable argument.

Now let's turn around that argument...

Versatility like : the Destroyer (or any soldier for that matter) or the Demolisher or the Kroguard or the Novaguard ?

These all are classes that by their very nature push you into a certain playstyle. In some cases even don't allow any deviation from it.  Or as you put it  " 1trick pony playstyles ".
Now I ask you..where is the punishment there ?

No.

"Versatility" as in My AJA can equip an Indra and a ULM Scorpion to deal good single target weapon damage, CC everything on the map, and still spam powers because those two weapons combined have the same weight as a level X Mantis. There is no enemy in the game that would give me any real trouble, and when cetain enemies deny my powers (or weapons) I'd have an answer for it.

There is no class in the game that is forced into one very specific role when weapons are no longer restricted by class as in previous ME games and we have so many specialized weapons that allow a class to be played in many different ways.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 12 novembre 2012 - 10:40 .

[garrusfan1]

Actually annihalation field hurts banshees cause I killed one with a bubble while I was a fury and it about did the evil grab kill and it died before it could. But yeah it is ridiculous

[Black Phantom]

Conduit0 wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

Learn how to not trigger the bubbles, ok sure thats a great idea, except that it completely ignores the fact that the mere existance of the bubbles puts casters at a significant disadvantage. It shoehorns them into specific weapons and prevents them from maxamizing their potential by severly limiting what powers they can use and when.
What makes the immunity bubbles all that more obnoxious is the fact that weaponcentric classes surpassed power classes in damage pontential long ago.

The disadvantage is there, but it's not as significant as the hyperbole on this board would suggest.

If anything, it's a testament to the fact that 200% CD bonus and a crappy weapon is not the be all end all standard that power classes should be striving for. The "powers vs weapons" mentality is half the problem, and anyone with a half decent manifest can use both with every class in the game .

The point is the disadvantage shouldn't be there at all.

Why not? Enemies that nullify certain player abilities put an emphasis on teamwork, or otherwise force the individual players to be versatile.

So wheres the disadvantage to weapon classes to emphasis teamwork or versatility? Oh wait, there isn't one.

Seeker Swarms reduce weapon accuracy. Guardians are a pain in the ass unless you're using an AP mod. Phantoms get constant damage reduction from hitscan weapons simply from moving, and their weapon DR goes up to ridiculous levels when they start spamming their dodge animation. (that last one would actually be complained about a lot more if they actually dodged hitscan weapons off host.) Enemy armor reduces rapid fire weapon and most shotgun damage significantly.

The effectiveness of a "weapon class" over a "power class" is reliant on the RNG to give multiple rare/ultra rare weapon unlocks and the right consumables, as opposed to one rare character unlock which is all that's required of a "power class" to deal acceptable damage.

Weapon classes are dominant right now, but not by as much as the hyperbole on BSN suggests...

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 12 novembre 2012 - 10:47 .

[JaimasOfRaxis]

It's bull, everyone knows it, but the Devs don't give a damn because they know squat about game design.

[Black Phantom]

Feneckus wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

I don't mind their bubbles. What bothers me is that 90% of the playerbase has no idea how to deal with them and will trigger the bubbles by doing something stupid. Cryo Blast on a phantom ? Wow, awesome, thanks a lot ...

That's actually not a bad idea, because you still debuff the Phantom and it will sit perfectly still while you shoot it.


... Not that most people who mindlessly trigger those abilities are thinking that far ahead.

It IS a bad idea. If you Cryo Blast a phantom while a Shadow is in the middle of a shadow strike, she'll be toe to toe with a phantom instead of killing her immediately. Any grenade class will be at a disavantage. Unless the Cryo Blast is immediately followed by a Claymore headshot, you're doing more harm than good since the phantom would have been dead quicker had she not used her bubble.

And unfortunately, Cryo Blast is often followed by Carnifex shots or something. Besides, it's not like phantoms need the debuff.

Those two scenarios you gave were very situational, and not representative of the average PUG...

If I saw someone attempting to melee/Shadow Strike the Phantom  I obviously wouldn't attempt it, but exploiting the Phantom's power immunity barrier with a projectile power and a good weapon is pretty much one of the easiest ways to deal with them using any class.

You just have to have good judgement (which most people don't have)

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 12 novembre 2012 - 11:50 .

[Tybo]

Ashen Earth wrote...

I obviously wouldn't attempt it, but exploiting the Phantom's power immunity barrier with a projectile power and a good weapon is pretty much one of the easiest ways to deal with them using any class.

You just have to have good judgement (which most people don't have)

Only if you're not hosting

Modifié par tyhw, 12 novembre 2012 - 11:54 .

[MrChris_CJ]

Phantoms don't even need their bubble most of the time, for them they just have to do a little side flip and suddenly they are immune to damage

I relish every time I saber one of those ****es in the face

[Black Phantom]

tyhw wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

I obviously wouldn't attempt it, but exploiting the Phantom's power immunity barrier with a projectile power and a good weapon is pretty much one of the easiest ways to deal with them using any class.

You just have to have good judgement (which most people don't have)

Only if you're not hosting

It's even better on host, because any weapon with an AP mod will do direct health damage and force the Phantom into the "cloak and run away" routine.

[Transairion]

There should be some "weapon invulnerability" bubble of sort, to even the balance between the classes, because at the moment classes like Destroyer just dont have to GAF, and the rest has to.
Where's the justice in it.

Because then there'd be literally no counterplay?

If your a power class and they bubble, shoot if with your gun which are forced to take until the bubble goes away.

If you're a shooty class, and they "weapon bubbled", then what do? Use your powers? What powers? Concussive Shot? Shooty classes would basically be unable to do anything at all, since their "powers" are either toggle/passives/self-affecting OR they are do trash damage/are grenades. And not everyone has grenades.

Shooty classes would be unable to do anything to a "weapon bubble" defense so it's not in the game, while power classes can just shoot the damn thing. You are FORCED to take a weapon, just use it.

What would the Destroyer or Flamer-less Geth Trooper do against a weapon bubble anyway? Destroyer uses Hawk Missle (lmao), Trooper has literally no other option than melee. Which is a great idea/sarcasm

So wheres the disadvantage to weapon classes to emphasis teamwork or versatility? Oh wait, there isn't one. Weapon classes can be entirely one trick ponies and still be 100% effective against all enemies. Infact as something like a Destroyer or TGI the only strategy you need is, "Apply bullets to face" and you'll achieve glorious victory against any enemy that crosses your path.

Roflstomping all over every enemy in the games requires:

- using high level consumables/Gear
- having a high level weapon (unless it's an UR)
- using a class that pretty much cannot do anything BUT use a weapon

Meanwhile as long as I have a level 20 Adept I can slap on defensive gear and go to town totally consumabless. And if there's other Adepts, explosions everywhere and Gold becomes an utter cakewalk.

Modifié par Transairion, 13 novembre 2012 - 12:05 .

[Black Phantom]

Transairion wrote...

There should be some "weapon invulnerability" bubble of sort, to even the balance between the classes, because at the moment classes like Destroyer just dont have to GAF, and the rest has to.
Where's the justice in it.

Because then there'd be literally no counterplay?

If your a power class and they bubble, shoot if with your gun which are forced to take until the bubble goes away.

If you're a shooty class, and they "weapon bubbled", then what do? Use your powers? What powers? Concussive Shot? Shooty classes would basically be unable to do anything at all, since their "powers" are either toggle/passives/self-affecting OR they are do trash damage/are grenades. And not everyone has grenades.

Shooty classes would be unable to do anything to a "weapon bubble" defense so it's not in the game, while power classes can just shoot the damn thing. You are FORCED to take a weapon, just use it.

What would the Destroyer or Flamer-less Geth Trooper do against a weapon bubble anyway? Destroyer uses Hawk Missle (lmao), Trooper has literally no other option than melee. Which is a great idea/sarcasm

You can take your logic & common sense and leave my internet immediately.

[Tybo]

Ashen Earth wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

I obviously wouldn't attempt it, but exploiting the Phantom's power immunity barrier with a projectile power and a good weapon is pretty much one of the easiest ways to deal with them using any class.

You just have to have good judgement (which most people don't have)

Only if you're not hosting

It's even better on host, because any weapon with an AP mod will do direct health damage and force the Phantom into the "cloak and run away" routine.

In my experience, phantoms while bubbling, as host, take very little weapon damage.  I haven't tested this because phantoms are a pain to test against though.  But I'm sure someone else will back me on this.

Off host, you are right.

EDIT:: Are you claiming that, when in bubble/hand of denial, that using an AP mod will damage the health of a phantom through its barriers?  

Modifié par tyhw, 13 novembre 2012 - 12:04 .

[Pedro Costa]

Air Quotes wrote...

To the point were they are nearly perma-on. And only the Phantom has a drawback of inability to move or attack you when she put her barrier hand on. 

The other two can move, shoot and do all the things they normally do. That's BS. Screws up power classes and in general 100% power damage negation is stupid. Why can't it be 50%? 75%?  Why can't there be a cooldown between uses? 

And Praetorians have a **** load of armor and barriers to begin with. And I'm not talking about possesed ones. 

Agreed. It is annoying.

[Black Phantom]

tyhw wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

I obviously wouldn't attempt it, but exploiting the Phantom's power immunity barrier with a projectile power and a good weapon is pretty much one of the easiest ways to deal with them using any class.

You just have to have good judgement (which most people don't have)

Only if you're not hosting

It's even better on host, because any weapon with an AP mod will do direct health damage and force the Phantom into the "cloak and run away" routine.

In my experience, phantoms while bubbling, as host, take very little weapon damage.  I haven't tested this because phantoms are a pain to test against though.  But I'm sure someone else will back me on this.

Off host, you are right.

EDIT:: Are you claiming that, when in bubble/hand of denial, that using an AP mod will damage the health of a phantom through its barriers?  

I've done it with the Javelin, Geth Pulse Rifle, Talon and a bunch of different shotguns.

You can see it here in Sihmm's video

When he's shooting the Phantom, it's taking direct health damage. That explains why it's barrier bars are shaded as if it had taken health damage and then regenerated barrier over it, and explains why it cloaked and ran. (Phantoms usually cloak once they take health damage.) Off host the results are different, the AP mod and AP ammo let you virtually ignore her damage reduction.

[Mash-X-ToDieSlower]

I have been caught in so many situations lately in MP in which I can't seem to take down a banshee on my own. I've run around like a madman on platinum trying to end a wave for my 3 dead teammates, only to watch as one lonely banshee just laughs at me. Am I alone in this? And PLEASE, I would happily accept build advice for viable solo characters that will make situations like that easier to handle.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The barrier A.K.A Bubble of Denial is a cheap game mechanic, as cheap as instant kill used to be with magnet hands. Something should be done about DR or cooldown

The barrier must not protect against all form of of damage completely there needs to be about like 70 % cap for powers & 75 % cap for weapons (because powers have cooldown & weapons don't) if Bioware decides not to alter their cooldown

If Bioware decides to increase the cooldown, bubble should have 75% power DR & 80% weapon DR

[Apl_Juice]

Banshees can operate normally when she puts up her Barrier? Cause last I checked, she remains completely stationary and can't instant kill you.

[Black Phantom]

The Sin wrote...

The barrier must not protect against all form of of damage completely there needs to be about like 70 % cap for powers & 75 % cap for weapons (because powers have cooldown & weapons don't) if Bioware decides not to alter their cooldown

Weapons actually have to be aimed, (a player must compensate for bullet/pellet spread and recoil, unlike auto tracking and hitscan powers) and although they don't have cooldowns they do not have infinite ammo. You'll very rarely get your theoretical maximum damage.

And the Phantom's barrier already reduces weapon damage, not sure about the Praetorian though

[Sihmm]

It's a bit irritating, but it's a loooong way down my list of things that are irritating in this game :] And only the Praetorian really bothers me - the banshee bubble goes up when she's in her least dangerous and easiest to hit state, and the phantom's bubble prevents her doing anything else (and she can still be hit with powers while flipping to avoid gunfire).  Phantom DR in general is pretty silly though.

The Praetorian though, it's a bit silly how much uptime the bubble gets during its most dangerous phase.  Yet another reason (as if we needed any more!) to carry a powerful gun on every class.

Modifié par Sihmm, 13 novembre 2012 - 12:44 .

[Black Phantom]

Apl_J wrote...

Banshees can operate normally when she puts up her Barrier? Cause last I checked, she remains completely stationary and can't instant kill you.

Attack Pattern 1: Banshee teleports around the map trying to melee/grab players
Attack Pattern 2: Banshee walks around throwing Warp at the players, blocking projectile powers and uses an Aoe attack on players that get close. (cannot sync kill) A Banshee will always scream before going back into the sync kill attack pattern.

A Banshee that's blocking powers wouldn't be able to instakill a player anyway, regardless of whether or not her power immunity was triggered because their programming doesn't allow it. their power immunity can be exploited though to stop them from throwing Warp (they will cancel their attack to block your powers)