73 réponses à ce sujet

[heat2008]

 I don't know too much about the DA universe but I was wondering why can't a mage be a noble. You can be a noble rogue or warrior so why not a mage? It's not like people born into nobility don't posses the talent required, Connor is the son of an Arl...which would make him a ??? uhm future Arl....in any case he's nobility and will be shucked off to the circle eventually. It would have been interesting to see how people responded to a noble mage since there is a stigma about mages anyway.

[Namirsolo]

Because if you are a mage you are taken from your family at a young age and are striped of your family titles. If you are a mage in Fereldan (and not an apostate like Morrigan and her mother) you have to live in the mage tower.



When Connor is sent to the Circle tower he loses his title and any claim to his family's land.

[heat2008]

Oooh...ouch that sucks, so no matter what if you're a mage you always get the short end of the stick. With so much hostility thrown towards them it's a wonder they all don't revolt, the templars aren't that big and bad.

[KalosCast]

heat2008 wrote...

Oooh...ouch that sucks, so no matter what if you're a mage you always get the short end of the stick. With so much hostility thrown towards them it's a wonder they all don't revolt, the templars aren't that big and bad.

Except that they'd have the entire world against a hundred or so of them. And templars are trained solely in the skills of countering magic and whacking things with swords. Two things mages aren't supposed to handle well.

[Vaern Sul]

These laws exist to prevent a Tevinter Imperium-bis in Fereldren, or so the templars claims. It is however easily flawed since Fereldren's law doesn't prohibit either independant mages organisations (The mage's collective is out of any templar "supervision") or hiring circle mages to personnal use (Howe hired about 4 mages, if I remember correct).

These mages can dabble in any politic freaks as long as they are not officialy involved or hide the fact that they are actually mages (No one force them to wear silly robes and carry a stick).



To return to the last post, well if you do not know yet :

1) Visit the circle tower.

2)After defeating the end-boss, the Fereldren ruler grant something to the Circle mages, if your PC was a mage. That prove to be interesting.

[Sabriana]

The chantry controls the templars, who control the mages. The chantry also controls the lyrium trade, which controls the templars.

Were I a noble/lord/arl/whathaveyou in Ferelden (or anywhere else that has this system going) I'd be very, very suspicious of the chantry. Who watches the watcher? This whole templar/lyrium business gives the chantry a great deal of control and power, over both - mages and templars.

The mages alone are not half as scary as the chantry who controls all.

[Vaern Sul]

Well at least the Chantry does not sacrifice thousand and elves and swallow two third of the topside available lyrium to have a physical trip in the Golden city.
Or so they say. The Chantry says many things.

Modifié par Vaern Sul, 03 janvier 2010 - 12:13 .

[4bs.zer0]

Noble Mage origin probably wouldn't make much sense.



However, I do wish there was an "Apostate Mage origin" story. :-)

[Sabriana]

They still have too much power. Remember, it was exactly the reason the Tevinter Imperium eventually did such horrible things as sacrificing slaves and even reaching for the Golden City. Too much power. That's never a good thing. Be it the anvil, lyrium control, templars, blood-magic, etc. Too much power concentrated in one hand or in one entity is always cause to call for extreme vigilance.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sabriana wrote...

The chantry controls the templars, who control the mages. The chantry also controls the lyrium trade, which controls the templars.
Were I a noble/lord/arl/whathaveyou in Ferelden (or anywhere else that has this system going) I'd be very, very suspicious of the chantry. Who watches the watcher? This whole templar/lyrium business gives the chantry a great deal of control and power, over both - mages and templars.
The mages alone are not half as scary as the chantry who controls all.

Exactly. It really comes down to, in most part, the Chantry.

Mages are feared by most people in Ferelden because they are not understood. Wynne explains, from experience, that your average peasant, if cursed by a bad harvest, dead baby, ect, will automatically chalk it off to evil mages and witches, and from what I've experienced in dialogues with most people in the country, this seems to be a correct assement of the attitude. Hence, one of the reasons for the Circle tower, it is said, is to protect mages from the ignorant masses would would kill them for silly reasons.

However, the Chantry plays a bigger role in this mentality. While they preach that mages serve a purpose, they also seem to either sit back and do nothing about the ignorance, or even encourage it, so that they can have greater control over magic. If people are left afraid of mages, they will either kill them out of hand, or immediate turned them over to the Chantry, and the Chantry can assimilate them into the Circle, which the Chantry controls.

Now, there are legit reasons why there is an unease about magic. Mages, unlike normal people, are so connected to the fade that they are potential conduits for demons and foul spirits to enter our world and take possession. hence, abominations, and abominations are extremely dangerous creatures that can cause alot of harm. Thus, they need to be extra alert and careful, because the demons are always lurking. Thus, there is a need for some sort of safety check when you have mages. And with blood magic, which can be sued to directly control people, there is even more need to be cautious.

The problem is, the Chantry falsely represents itself, the templars, and circle as the only way to control mages and prevent them from hurting others. And the Chantry is quite oppressive towards mages, ripping them from their families at young ages, locking them away in the tower, and having proverbial, and sometimes literal, swords held to their throats. They constantly remind mages what a menace to society they are, whether they are or not, and keep a pretty tight reign on them.

We see independant organizations of mages exist completely outside of the Chantry's influence, such as the collective, as well as the Dalish. Both groups seem to function fine, and have their own methods and checks to prevent things like abominations. They do this without being oppressive and paranoid towards mages, and do not engage in the cruel, abusive tactics used by the Chantry to subdue them.

But the Chantry still holds sway over the hearts and minds of the majority of Thedas, and thus, their animosity towards magic carries over into daily and political life. Constantly reminding people of the evils of the Tevinter magister lords, blood magic, ect, people believe that mages should hold absolutely no influence whatsoever, that they are dangerous animals that should be locked away for the benefit of society. Hence, why secular governments pretty much ban them from any station holding any sort of influence or power. Because it is considered too risky.

[SusanStoHelit]

Tell it like it is Skadi! Oh, and the qunari treat mages even worse, if you can believe that. The religious types in this game really are stereotypically bigoted and fundamentalist. Not all individuals, I hasten to add, but the organisations as a whole. Historically accurate for our world (and currently too in many cases, alas.)



Some arl's son can indulge in gang rape and murder and abuse of power - and that's okay - another arl indulges in slaving and torture and what all - but using magic? Way too dangerous and evil.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Tell it like it is Skadi! Oh, and the qunari treat mages even worse, if you can believe that. The religious types in this game really are stereotypically bigoted and fundamentalist. Not all individuals, I hasten to add, but the organisations as a whole. Historically accurate for our world (and currently too in many cases, alas.)

Some arl's son can indulge in gang rape and murder and abuse of power - and that's okay - another arl indulges in slaving and torture and what all - but using magic? Way too dangerous and evil.

 

yep. The qunari pretty much just kill mages on sight, or mutilate them and lock them in dungeons to rot. They also follow a militant, intolerant religious system. But either way, it seems organized religion equals intolerance and absolutism, especially if you are a mage.

Mages in Thedas can be compared, in a way, the the scientists and scholars of medieval times, who were sometimes tolerated, but carefully watched by the church lest they make heretical discoveries, and many had to practice in secret if they really wanted to strike the cutting edge of knowledge.

The Muslims had a similar situation. While far more tolerant and encouraging of philisophical and alchemical study and development (they were far advanced in many aspects than Christian Europe was) many islamic scholars still had to go udnerground and experiment/study in secret, lest they to end up discovering something in direct conflict with the Koran, and thus, end up with a considerably short life expectancy.

But in general, in fantasy worlds everywhere, mages usually fill that world's role as the scientists and innovators, and we all know, through history, just what organized religion thinks of science and emperical, independant thought.

Exhalted Marches=Crusades=Jihads: good and holy. Killing thousands and subjugating people because they have a different point of view? Righteous cause. Allowing institutionalized rape because of race/status? Divine right. Creating a fanatic army addicted to a drug only you can supply? Just doin' the Maker'swork.

But gasp....conjuring flame from nothing or discovering a new elixir that can prolonge life or amplify abilities? EVIL! SIN! KILL! SMITE!

I jez luv dat religin', I duz.

[Reader81]

I don't view mage as scientist and scholars, but they more likely go to bard and rouge rather, mage do not exist unless you believe in bible, where there few command firestorm, red sea spit, heal ear, rise from the dead, make deaf hear, walk on sea, make calm the storm and sea when they rage, ect.. but they came from Heaven father rather than any person in bible, however.

Modifié par Reader81, 03 janvier 2010 - 06:02 .

[Lupus Canivus]

Go Skadi, go! That has been/is human history in a nutshell, the fantasy one is an image on our world, just with more happy endings!

[cylriasilver]

Sabriana wrote...

The chantry controls the templars, who control the mages. The chantry also controls the lyrium trade, which controls the templars.
Were I a noble/lord/arl/whathaveyou in Ferelden (or anywhere else that has this system going) I'd be very, very suspicious of the chantry. Who watches the watcher? This whole templar/lyrium business gives the chantry a great deal of control and power, over both - mages and templars.
The mages alone are not half as scary as the chantry who controls all.

 
Don’t forget  that the nobles and kings still rule Ferelden. The King has the power to call upon the mages despite what the templars want. Apparently, he also has the power to declare the mages independent of the templars if he wishes. As powerful as the templars may be, their numbers are small compared to the armies of the King and Arles of the land.
 
It’s sort of a weird balancing act that has been played out in real history many times. The people (typically) trust the nobles to lead and protect them, but they also have varying degrees of faith in a religion that crosses national borders. If either side looses too much faith from the people, then the other could possibly seize more power.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The circle is needed. the Templars are needed.



Mages are not some poor, downtrotted, misundestood children who the big bad chantry abuses.

[tallon1982]

The Chantry isn't completely in charge when you think of it. Grey Wardens can invoke the right of conscription to superceed any rules the Chantry has over mages and templars. Hell even the King would have to bend to a Grey Warden when you think about it. Who's got the true power there?

[heat2008]

Lots of comments, cant respond to the all individually...I woke up late. Anyway it is true that Templars are trained to combat magic but what is to stop mages from training in combat? Arcane warriors are essentially magic warriors if I'm not mistaken and all it takes is one to train many. If mages decided to truly put forth an effort, unite all who could use magic for the common goal of liberation from oppression. And I do view them as being oppressed. Then they would be a force to be reckoned with

Let's say while in the tower small groups at a time began to secretly train in combat arts until everyone was proficient, while another mage or group who had access to the outside world went around uniting all apostate mages and training them for what would eventually come. Then once everybody was all trained up, the circle mages revolt kill all the Templars in the tower and leave. It would be a while before the chantry knew exactly what was going on, meanwhile a group of skilled mages infiltrate Denerim (this is where they keep the phylactaries, no?) and destroy them all. Now they can't be tracked. And while all this is happening they're steady recruiting and training more mages somewhere outside of sight. Eventually they would get to a point where their numbers are great, and if they decide to build their own fortress it would be quite foolish to confront them on home turf. This is assuming they don't get wiped out before such a plan took flight, but it could be possible.

Modifié par heat2008, 03 janvier 2010 - 09:09 .

[SusanStoHelit]

While possible in theory, probably wouldn't work in 'real life' as it were. Look at what happened to the Grey Wardens when they revolted, and they had lots of people backing them as well. Mages are vastly outnumbered. They'd have the chantry and the templars and the secular armies against them. Even peasants would report them if they saw them.



And remember that the mages can't agree among themselves. Many agree that chantry control over the mages is a good thing. Even Wynne says templars perform 'a necessary function'. Let alone the ones like Keili who believe that their own magic makes them damned and evil.



Someone would simply turn them in long before things got off the ground.

[heat2008]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

While possible in theory, probably wouldn't work in 'real life' as it were. Look at what happened to the Grey Wardens when they revolted, and they had lots of people backing them as well. Mages are vastly outnumbered. They'd have the chantry and the templars and the secular armies against them. Even peasants would report them if they saw them.

And remember that the mages can't agree among themselves. Many agree that chantry control over the mages is a good thing. Even Wynne says templars perform 'a necessary function'. Let alone the ones like Keili who believe that their own magic makes them damned and evil.

Someone would simply turn them in long before things got off the ground.

True, I do remember the whole circle in the circle thing with I think 5 different sects if I'm not mistaken.You would have to root out the problem mages first, the ones like Wynn would have to be "put down" in the beginning...they were practicing blood magic behind the circles back with a secret plot to overthrow the chantry so it had to be done

With them out the way it wouldn't be that hard to unify the other groups. And while they would have armies after them should the plan succeed, without being trackable the armies would not know where to look.  The Grey Wardens that revolted, I'm only going by the info I got from the soilders peak DLC, did not seem to be that many. And I'm sure once they revolted any political backing they may have had abandoned them. That and they ran out of supplies. So lets say the mages where to build a fortress in the middle of nowhere surround it by a very deep and wide moat pushed back from the fortress so they could keep livestock and such. Build a wall on the interrior of the moat so that if you somehow crossed it there was a thick high wall you had to climb or knock down before you even touched the land surrounding the fortress. This wall would also happen to be magically enhanced making it that much harder to knock down

Building something like that would probably take a good deal of time and considerable manpower though. But if they could accomplish this before being discovered then it would be very hard to touch them. You bring your armies to this fortress and see structure looming in the distance but before that you see this huge expanse of water immediately backed by a wall. You stat moving your forces through the water when fire, ice, and lightning start raining from the sky. Your armies would sustain large casualties before they even got to the wall, even more before they managed to get over or through it. This whole scenario assumes everything goes exceedingly well for the mages but it is possible.

[friedsashimi]

heat2008 wrote...

Lots of comments, cant respond to the all individually...I woke up late. Anyway it is true that Templars are trained to combat magic but what is to stop mages from training in combat? Arcane warriors are essentially magic warriors if I'm not mistaken and all it takes is one to train many. If mages decided to truly put forth an effort, unite all who could use magic for the common goal of liberation from oppression. And I do view them as being oppressed. Then they would be a force to be reckoned with

There are actually some codexes you can pick up in the Circle called "Extracurricular Activities" dealing with exactly what you're talking about. An Enchanter tries to petition the Templars to let him set up classes training mages in self-defense so they wouldn't be completely helpless without magic while out and about in the world. He is, of course, rejected.

[friedsashimi]

heat2008 wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

While possible in theory, probably wouldn't work in 'real life' as it were. Look at what happened to the Grey Wardens when they revolted, and they had lots of people backing them as well. Mages are vastly outnumbered. They'd have the chantry and the templars and the secular armies against them. Even peasants would report them if they saw them.

And remember that the mages can't agree among themselves. Many agree that chantry control over the mages is a good thing. Even Wynne says templars perform 'a necessary function'. Let alone the ones like Keili who believe that their own magic makes them damned and evil.

Someone would simply turn them in long before things got off the ground.

True, I do remember the whole circle in the circle thing with I think 5 different sects if I'm not mistaken.You would have to root out the problem mages first, the ones like Wynn would have to be "put down" in the beginning...they were practicing blood magic behind the circles back with a secret plot to overthrow the chantry so it had to be done

With them out the way it wouldn't be that hard to unify the other groups. And while they would have armies after them should the plan succeed, without being trackable the armies would not know where to look.  The Grey Wardens that revolted, I'm only going by the info I got from the soilders peak DLC, did not seem to be that many. And I'm sure once they revolted any political backing they may have had abandoned them. That and they ran out of supplies. So lets say the mages where to build a fortress in the middle of nowhere surround it by a very deep and wide moat pushed back from the fortress so they could keep livestock and such. Build a wall on the interrior of the moat so that if you somehow crossed it there was a thick high wall you had to climb or knock down before you even touched the land surrounding the fortress. This wall would also happen to be magically enhanced making it that much harder to knock down

Building something like that would probably take a good deal of time and considerable manpower though. But if they could accomplish this before being discovered then it would be very hard to touch them. You bring your armies to this fortress and see structure looming in the distance but before that you see this huge expanse of water immediately backed by a wall. You stat moving your forces through the water when fire, ice, and lightning start raining from the sky. Your armies would sustain large casualties before they even got to the wall, even more before they managed to get over or through it. This whole scenario assumes everything goes exceedingly well for the mages but it is possible.

Unfortunately, a mage-fortress like that wouldn't be able to last long unless lots and lots of people were willing to smuggle in their magical kids. Mages don't necessarily make magical babies, so a lot of them just come from regular commoner families who hand them straight to the Templars. So you get a situation where the Templars are holding any new mage blood hostage... or just outright killing them. If the mages aren't overrun, or destroy themselves from the inside by dabbling in blood magic in order to prolong their lives, they would eventually just die out.

[Creature 1]

"Magic is meant to serve man, not to rule over him." 

Having magic is a "go straight to jail (I mean, the Circle)" card. 

[Creature 1]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
yep. The qunari pretty much just kill mages on sight, or mutilate them and lock them in dungeons to rot. They also follow a militant, intolerant religious system. But either way, it seems organized religion equals intolerance and absolutism, especially if you are a mage.

To my embarassment I realized that Sten is still in my elf mage's party.  My mage has a chip on each shoulder, one for being an elf and one for being a mage.  It would be most consistent with his character to kill Sten when he finds out his opinions, but I think my only option is to boot him from the party. 

[Whisa]

Creature 1 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
yep. The qunari pretty much just kill mages on sight, or mutilate them and lock them in dungeons to rot. They also follow a militant, intolerant religious system. But either way, it seems organized religion equals intolerance and absolutism, especially if you are a mage.

To my embarassment I realized that Sten is still in my elf mage's party.  My mage has a chip on each shoulder, one for being an elf and one for being a mage.  It would be most consistent with his character to kill Sten when he finds out his opinions, but I think my only option is to boot him from the party. 

Try being a *woman* elf mage.

Sten runs in circles trying to figure out what you are, why you're a fighter, and to not be turned into an odd animal/ fireballed :happy: