73 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The circle is needed. the Templars are needed.

Mages are not some poor, downtrotted, misundestood children who the big bad chantry abuses.

Untrue on all accounts. Neither the circle or templars, both Chantry constructs, are needed. We see in the game, that there are organizations independant of the Chantry that manage to function without hordes of abominations overruning Ferelden. The Dalish are a prime example. They have magic, and very powerful magic to boot, without imprisoning mages, robbing them from their families, ect. And then there is the Mages Collective, who also appear to be doing quite fine. And they do share certain philosophies with the Circle, such as an opposition to Blood Magic. One of the jobs they give you is to wipe a group of blood mages out.

So both Circle and Templars really exist to keep mages under the control of the Chantry, and it's clear that the Chantry has far more say in Circle affairs than is shown. Talking to Morrigan, Wynne, picking up codexes, ect, mages very rarely, if ever, get to live normal lives. Marriage amongst them is forbidden, children born to circle mages are automatically taken at birth from their mothers and given to the Chantry, and leaving the Circle, whether you are a malifecar or not, makes you an aopostate and is an automatic death sentance.

So I must disagree that mages are not oppressed. They live in a gilded cage, and the threat of death or being forced into being  a Tranquil is always hanging over their heads. And despite the harsh measures of Circle and Chantry, we also see that abominations and maleficar are not prevented by such harsh measures. if anything, I wonder just how many abominations and blood mages are a result of backlash from such oppresive measures.

You don't have to live in a ghetto or alienage to be oppressed.

[JaegerBane]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Untrue on all accounts. Neither the circle or templars, both Chantry constructs, are needed. We see in the game, that there are organizations independant of the Chantry that manage to function without hordes of abominations overruning Ferelden. The Dalish are a prime example. They have magic, and very powerful magic to boot, without imprisoning mages, robbing them from their families, ect. And then there is the Mages Collective, who also appear to be doing quite fine. And they do share certain philosophies with the Circle, such as an opposition to Blood Magic. One of the jobs they give you is to wipe a group of blood mages out.

So both Circle and Templars really exist to keep mages under the control of the Chantry, and it's clear that the Chantry has far more say in Circle affairs than is shown. Talking to Morrigan, Wynne, picking up codexes, ect, mages very rarely, if ever, get to live normal lives. Marriage amongst them is forbidden, children born to circle mages are automatically taken at birth from their mothers and given to the Chantry, and leaving the Circle, whether you are a malifecar or not, makes you an aopostate and is an automatic death sentance.

Indeed. I think it's worth pointing out that the methods the Chantry use are so heavy handed that they actually end up being self-defeating - the whole problem in the Broken Circle quest effectively boils down to the Chantry insisting on such absurd restrictions resulted in an unstable situation that people like Loghain can exploit.

I think, ultimately, the root problem the Chantry has regarding mages is that for all their reasoning and apparent justification, it all just boils down to ignorance. Having some hysterical bible-basher effectively deciding how mages can work despite not having the faintest idea of magic (and how could they?) is a very backwards way of organising everything and is pretty much doomed to fail.

[JaegerBane]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

yep. The qunari pretty much just kill mages on sight, or mutilate them and lock them in dungeons to rot. They also follow a militant, intolerant religious system. But either way, it seems organized religion equals intolerance and absolutism, especially if you are a mage.

I think this is an area where I have no sympathy whatsoever with the qunari. You generally find intolerant religious systems have some sort of reason behind them - the only functioning form o government in a particular area, for example - but in the case of the Qunari the only reason they haven't defeated Tevinter is that their advanced technology is matched by the Tevinter grasp of magic.

Purposefully slaying their own mages is silly when they could easily be the key to victory.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

JaegerBane wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

yep. The qunari pretty much just kill mages on sight, or mutilate them and lock them in dungeons to rot. They also follow a militant, intolerant religious system. But either way, it seems organized religion equals intolerance and absolutism, especially if you are a mage.

I think this is an area where I have no sympathy whatsoever with the qunari. You generally find intolerant religious systems have some sort of reason behind them - the only functioning form o government in a particular area, for example - but in the case of the Qunari the only reason they haven't defeated Tevinter is that their advanced technology is matched by the Tevinter grasp of magic.

Purposefully slaying their own mages is silly when they could easily be the key to victory.

Yes, I agree. Their system is in some ways, worse than the Chantry, because it is so rigid and full of complete absolutes. The Chantry might preach the evils of magic, but is willing to make use of it. The qun, from what we learn from Sten, basically pre-ordains people into rigid roles and absolutes regarding those roles, and does not allow, regardless of personal wishes or latent talent, an individual to move outside of that role that is believed to be pre-ordained. Like Sten said, a merchant can't be anything but a merchant, a farmer anything but a farmer, ect. Such rigid, hive-like thinking can inevitably result in the self destruction through decay of a society.

After all, look at Loghain. A farmer turned warrior turned noble-general. Ignoring the fact that in game he's causing a good deal of your problems, he excelled by stepping out of his place, thus freeing ferelden from occupation.

Though they see magic can be useful, their thought system says that it is dangerous and dirty, and thus, cannot be useful. 

And yes, your earlier post is also true. During your trip through the Circle tower, and in the mage origin, we find hints and clues that the current disaster was one long in the making, and because of oppresive templar and Chantry tactics, many mages started looking into Blood Magic as a possible tool of liberation, despite the dangers. Like a pressure cooker. the tighter you nail the lid shut, the bigger the explosion will be when that thing blows up from too much heat, and the greater the damage. There was also a discussion once regarding the Harrowing, and the fact that the circle basically summons, and in effect, is consorting with demons when they stick one in you to fight off. While I understand the reasoning behind the Harrowing, the execution of the ritual is very questionable, and leads to questions about double standards and corruption in the Chantry run circle, as well.

[Eruanna Guerrein]

4bs.zer0 wrote...

Noble Mage origin probably wouldn't make much sense.

However, I do wish there was an "Apostate Mage origin" story. :-)

This! Yes!!

[ReubenLiew]

They really should just have the Chantry murder every mage they come across.

Then at least we will have an end to all the threads about how overpowered the mages are.

[JaegerBane]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
And yes, your earlier post is also true. During your trip through the Circle tower, and in the mage origin, we find hints and clues that the current disaster was one long in the making, and because of oppresive templar and Chantry tactics, many mages started looking into Blood Magic as a possible tool of liberation, despite the dangers. Like a pressure cooker. the tighter you nail the lid shut, the bigger the explosion will be when that thing blows up from too much heat, and the greater the damage. There was also a discussion once regarding the Harrowing, and the fact that the circle basically summons, and in effect, is consorting with demons when they stick one in you to fight off. While I understand the reasoning behind the Harrowing, the execution of the ritual is very questionable, and leads to questions about double standards and corruption in the Chantry run circle, as well.

I'm on the fence about the Harrowing. To a certain extent, I actually think it's a good idea - putting Mages through that kind of test inevitably results in high-quality order of mages, resistant to corruption and extremely powerful on and off the battlefield.

On the other hand, the fact that it's forced on any mage that doesn't go tranquil is a bit draconian - considering the chantry refuse to let mages out of the tower on normal circumstances, I'm not totally sure why everyone has to undergo it.

Forced Rite of Tranquility is little more than barbarism. Personally the only way this would be acceptable is if the Templars forcing it would incur some sort of massive penalty - they'd have to commit suicide or something. That would, at least, make the Chantry think a little more about their reasons for forcing the Rite.

[SusanStoHelit]

Whisa wrote...


Try being a *woman* elf mage.

Sten runs in circles trying to figure out what you are, why you're a fighter, and to not be turned into an odd animal/ fireballed :happy:

Yep, my female elven mage had huge problems with Sten at first  and then got to rub his nose in it and make him retract his opinions. Good times.

[SusanStoHelit]

Sorry for two posts, but I wanted to keep the two responses separate.

I agree with Skadi and Jaeger - or maybe they agree with me, lol, I can't remember who posted what first. The chantry is using (indeed, promoting) the fear of mages as one of its techniques to maintain its social and political power. Yes, being a mage makes you susceptible to corruption by demons, that is to say there is a CHANCE you could be so corrupted. But widespread and systemic victimisation and oppression are not the way to go to prevent such things.

Firstly, clearly the Dalish and other groups don't need or use a chantry-like system and they don't have abominations running around everywhere. Secondly, it self-evidently doesn't work. Even with the chantry's abuse and oppression - we DO have abominations running around everywhere. Quad erat demonstrandum.

Edit: Way to go Bioware! Such a great story that we're debating the socio-politico-religious system of Ferelden and Thedas in general, especially with regard to mages. *doffs hat*

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 04 janvier 2010 - 12:34 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

JaegerBane wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
And yes, your earlier post is also true. During your trip through the Circle tower, and in the mage origin, we find hints and clues that the current disaster was one long in the making, and because of oppresive templar and Chantry tactics, many mages started looking into Blood Magic as a possible tool of liberation, despite the dangers. Like a pressure cooker. the tighter you nail the lid shut, the bigger the explosion will be when that thing blows up from too much heat, and the greater the damage. There was also a discussion once regarding the Harrowing, and the fact that the circle basically summons, and in effect, is consorting with demons when they stick one in you to fight off. While I understand the reasoning behind the Harrowing, the execution of the ritual is very questionable, and leads to questions about double standards and corruption in the Chantry run circle, as well.

I'm on the fence about the Harrowing. To a certain extent, I actually think it's a good idea - putting Mages through that kind of test inevitably results in high-quality order of mages, resistant to corruption and extremely powerful on and off the battlefield.

On the other hand, the fact that it's forced on any mage that doesn't go tranquil is a bit draconian - considering the chantry refuse to let mages out of the tower on normal circumstances, I'm not totally sure why everyone has to undergo it.

Forced Rite of Tranquility is little more than barbarism. Personally the only way this would be acceptable is if the Templars forcing it would incur some sort of massive penalty - they'd have to commit suicide or something. That would, at least, make the Chantry think a little more about their reasons for forcing the Rite.

I agree the Harrowing is important, but it's the execution and dealing with it I find questionable. We have no other information if a harrowing occurs within the non-Chantry aligned groups. I'd imagine they have some sort of test., though whether or not it's like the Circle's test, we might not know ever. Some sort of test to expose mages to the danger's they face and ensure they are capable of overcoming such hazards, I believe is essential, not only for society at large, but the well being and safety of the mage.

We don't know exactly what criteria a mage must meet before undergoing a Harrowing, other than a mentor declaring them ready, whether they are or not. Given the track record, I wonder how many unprepared mages have been forced into the Harrowing, with little regard of their readiness or not. And there have been threads discussing the possibility that the Circle might occasionally go tranquil-happy and coerce/frighten mages into becoming tranquil, even if not necessary, because the Tranquil are the source of the circle's wealth, and function also as worker drones. Sort of lobotomized slave labor.

I do feel some pity for the templars, though. The Chantry has them brainwashed, and further ensures loyalty through lyruim addiction. The Chantry seems to push the belief in Templars that they need the constant lyrium snorting to remain templars, yet we see this is untrue, since Alistair still can use templar powers, despite never taking lyruim. Basically, the Chantry employs an army of mentally unstable drug-addicts to police the mages, so no wonder there are problems. And by controlling the lyrium trade, they in effect really control the circle and templars. Too much power there.

[ckriley]

What I find strange is how Elven mages are found. I mean, if you play as a Dalish Elf, you see that the Dalish clans clearly have their own mages. Are these not considered apostates? Mages outside the Circle's control? Are the elves in the mage tower city elves, found in the alienage?



I've always wondered that.

[Herr Uhl]

ckriley wrote...
Are the elves in the mage tower city elves, found in the alienage?

I thought that was obvious.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ckriley wrote...

What I find strange is how Elven mages are found. I mean, if you play as a Dalish Elf, you see that the Dalish clans clearly have their own mages. Are these not considered apostates? Mages outside the Circle's control? Are the elves in the mage tower city elves, found in the alienage?

I've always wondered that.

yes, they are, unless they are Dalish that got abducted young. The Chantry holds no authority over the Dalish, and as we see, the Dalish practice magic freely. Dalish lands are defended from incursions from the Chantry, so basically, it's from the alienages and elves in human lands. The Chantry considers any and all magic outside its control apostasy, but only enforces their law where they have the power to do so.

Another group outside the Chantry are the Chasind wilders, who have their own shamen/witches, and are too spread out and hard to hunt down. the Chantry focuses its efforts in "civilized" nations where they have some authority, and those outside their shpere are generally ignored as long as they remain outside.

[Zaisha_temp]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
 There was also a discussion once regarding the Harrowing, and the fact that the circle basically summons, and in effect, is consorting with demons when they stick one in you to fight off. While I understand the reasoning behind the Harrowing, the execution of the ritual is very questionable, and leads to questions about double standards and corruption in the Chantry run circle, as well.

On the "Chantry hippocracy" note: does anyone really believe that the use of (blood filled) phylacteries to track down apostates is anything other than blood magic?

The Chantry also seems to be quite happy to let the mages at Ostagar (with templars and priests breathing down their neck) make the Grey Warden Joining Juice. Said juice is magically made from Darkspawn blood and Archdemon blood.

Idealism only when it suits them, eh?

[Whisa]

Zaisha_temp wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
 There was also a discussion once regarding the Harrowing, and the fact that the circle basically summons, and in effect, is consorting with demons when they stick one in you to fight off. While I understand the reasoning behind the Harrowing, the execution of the ritual is very questionable, and leads to questions about double standards and corruption in the Chantry run circle, as well.

On the "Chantry hippocracy" note: does anyone really believe that the use of (blood filled) phylacteries to track down apostates is anything other than blood magic?

The Chantry also seems to be quite happy to let the mages at Ostagar (with templars and priests breathing down their neck) make the Grey Warden Joining Juice. Said juice is magically made from Darkspawn blood and Archdemon blood.

Idealism only when it suits them, eh?

I think the part of blood magic that's feared is the part where you dominate someone's mind more so than actual blood magic and/ or the part where you take the blood from people around you to fuel a harmful spell.  The reason the GW joining is more lenient is probably because no one is being harmed by the magic to *create* the enchantment, though harm may come of it's use by non-mages.   The phylacteries, however, are a clear use of control of someone else by their blood.  Clear hypocrisy, but one that's their only option to "control" the mages.

[Sarethus]

Zaisha_temp wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
 There was also a discussion once regarding the Harrowing, and the fact that the circle basically summons, and in effect, is consorting with demons when they stick one in you to fight off. While I understand the reasoning behind the Harrowing, the execution of the ritual is very questionable, and leads to questions about double standards and corruption in the Chantry run circle, as well.

On the "Chantry hippocracy" note: does anyone really believe that the use of (blood filled) phylacteries to track down apostates is anything other than blood magic?

The Chantry also seems to be quite happy to let the mages at Ostagar (with templars and priests breathing down their neck) make the Grey Warden Joining Juice. Said juice is magically made from Darkspawn blood and Archdemon blood.

Idealism only when it suits them, eh?

Your taking the word 'blood' in blood magic to literally. Blood magic is defined as magic that uses blood/life force as a fuel source or magic that takes control over another person if I remember the codex entry right. Now if you use this fuel source a mage can do some things that he couldn't do if he used ordinary fuel (magic).

Not all magic that affects the blood is 'blood magic'.  Otherwise If a person got a disease that affected the blood, then magic curing it would be blood magic using your defination.    

With the phylacteries the mages are using the stored blood as a method to track their targets. In many real world myths having a body part such as a lock of hair, tooth, finger etc of your target will help you if wish to cast a spell over that person. The blood is not being consumed as source of power.


   

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The circle is needed. the Templars are needed.

Mages are not some poor, downtrotted, misundestood children who the big bad chantry abuses.

Hang on, everyone, Lotion and Alistair are about to break up, and it's probably going to be messy:

Alistair flips Lotion the bird

Strange that Alistair doesn't even agree with you?

[Sialater]

robertthebard wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The circle is needed. the Templars are needed.

Mages are not some poor, downtrotted, misundestood children who the big bad chantry abuses.

Hang on, everyone, Lotion and Alistair are about to break up, and it's probably going to be messy:

Alistair flips Lotion the bird

Strange that Alistair doesn't even agree with you?

The Circle does need to be free of the Chantry, just not under Irving.  I wasn't impressed with Irving.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The phylacteries that the Circle keeps for all mages and apprentices is more akin to being micro-chipped, or having a massive DNA/fingerprint database. A means to track you down should you slip from their sight. Not blood magic, as is described in game, but pretty damned totalitarian, nonetheless. If you've ever classed a mage as Blood Mage, you will see that Blood Magic involves using the blood of yourself and others to directly cause harm, or forcibly control them, whether they like it or not.



The phylactery, as far as I know, isn't used to directly harm or control the mage, but to locate them, so the Templars can do the hurting and controling themselves. So it's not actual blood magic. It's still pretty evil, I think.

[heat2008]

Ok, so if you're a mage the chantry is basically the root of all evil. I do remember that girl praying in the tower cursing her ability to use magic...wanted to stab her in the throat and tell her she's cured but alas that's not possible. It also seems to be the common consensus that a mage fortress would not last very long. I would like to think that united under a common goal they could put their differences aside and get along to at the very least maintain themselves. But considering the destructiveness of human nature I can see how that might not work out so well.



So for mages to truly be free it is not the Templars that need the beating but the Chantry. Just how big is the Chantry anyway? I know each town has it's own revered mother or what not but who resides above them? Let's say an assassin, not even a mage but put still hired by them, killed every revered mother and whoever is next up the ladder what would become of the Chantry?

[Sialater]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The phylacteries that the Circle keeps for all mages and apprentices is more akin to being micro-chipped, or having a massive DNA/fingerprint database. A means to track you down should you slip from their sight. Not blood magic, as is described in game, but pretty damned totalitarian, nonetheless. If you've ever classed a mage as Blood Mage, you will see that Blood Magic involves using the blood of yourself and others to directly cause harm, or forcibly control them, whether they like it or not.

The phylactery, as far as I know, isn't used to directly harm or control the mage, but to locate them, so the Templars can do the hurting and controling themselves. So it's not actual blood magic. It's still pretty evil, I think.

I really wanted a quest to destroy my phylactery.

[robertthebard]

They would declare an Exalted March on the entirety of Thedas.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sialater wrote...

I really wanted a quest to destroy my phylactery.

So did I. Even as my human mage went through the story, it was always in the back of her mind. Once the blight was over, and if she chose to leave the Wardens, would she suddenly become apostate and thus, templar-meat?

Be a nice bit of DLC or mod for a post campaign play. Of course, no consensus has been reached on whether or not the Joining alters you so much that it renders your phylactery void. I don't see why it would, but you never know. And while I'm there, maybe make a couple other phylacteries disappear.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

robertthebard wrote...

They would declare an Exalted March on the entirety of Thedas.

They already have, in the past, in places that refuse to stop being "heathens". Just ask the Dalish, and, if you make the mistake of helping that moron in orzammar open a Chantry there, the dwarves get in on the action to.

When there's no Blight, it seems Exhalted Marches are the Chantry's main pasttime and stress therapy for it's templars.

[Sialater]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

They would declare an Exalted March on the entirety of Thedas.

They already have, in the past, in places that refuse to stop being "heathens". Just ask the Dalish, and, if you make the mistake of helping that moron in orzammar open a Chantry there, the dwarves get in on the action to.

When there's no Blight, it seems Exhalted Marches are the Chantry's main pasttime and stress therapy for it's templars.

Well, there's only so many young, nubile apprentices they can watch in the baths, you know.  I didn't free the mages on my mage playthrough, though.  Mostly because I was utterly unimpressed with Irving and couldn't convince Wynne to stick around for the job.  And Connor scared my mage.

Mages are the most oppressed people in Ferelden.
.