428 réponses à ce sujet

[Archonsg]

@dr_extrem

And that is the other part of why ME3's ending received the reaction it did.

Reward vs effort.
It didn't reward everyone.
Its been argued, and I tend to agree with the assessment that Bioware dropped the Renegade / Paragon branches and focused on an ending that suited the Renegade more.

Let's face it, my Renegade femshep could not care less if an ally of convenience, the Geth, and EDI, (she is an walking sex toy afterall) is "sacrificed" or stabbed in the back, and yes, she'd probably shoot Mordin in the back to ensure BOTH Krogan and Salarian support while knowingly sabotaged Krogan fertility to keep them suppressed as part and parcel of "winning" the war. 

My Paragon however would be horrified at those choices.

ME3s ending simply did not fully reward those who chose to play as Paragons.

Modifié par Archonsg, 17 novembre 2012 - 10:45 .

[Redbelle]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...
The more i understood the ending, the more i hated it.

aye ... there is nothing to "understand" about the endings anyway. they wanted the franchise to end - so they wrote this ending.


the ending should have been a retrospective on the important decisions made during the series.
a personal ending to ta personal journey

shepard is badly hurt and the crucible is not firing. shepard gets patched up on the citadel and has to find a way to enable the crucible manually. on his/her way to the points of interest, shepard has flashbacks and blackouts (showing former decisions and persons who died/were met) - with interrupts, the player can gather new strength/dedication.

during the final race against time, shepard encounters harbinger, assuming direct control over his minions. 

at the last point of interest, shepard has the final confrontation. the crucible is powering up. harbinger makes the last push to ruin our effort. shepard fights bravely, but looses the last fight. harbinger grabs shepard and shows him/her the last view on earth - now we decide shepards personal fate (the crucible will fire regardless) with interrupts.

this could end in heroic sacrifice (to take harbinger with you) , a neutral end (shepard just dying with a smile - the jobs done) or a heroic action (that could save your life).


every taste could be satisfied. - lots of happy people.

have every view satisfied?
but it would conflict with  ...  "Art".

it would at least not jeopardise a sequel. maybe too videogamy.

the ending should have been a personal one - just like the story. if the player could decide shepards personal fate, it would have been nice and rewarding for everybody. to see the former choices "flash" before you, would give them the credit they deserve.

But it is a video game. To have a video game trying to not be a video game is............

[Dr_Extrem]

Redbelle wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...
The more i understood the ending, the more i hated it.

aye ... there is nothing to "understand" about the endings anyway. they wanted the franchise to end - so they wrote this ending.


the ending should have been a retrospective on the important decisions made during the series.
a personal ending to ta personal journey

shepard is badly hurt and the crucible is not firing. shepard gets patched up on the citadel and has to find a way to enable the crucible manually. on his/her way to the points of interest, shepard has flashbacks and blackouts (showing former decisions and persons who died/were met) - with interrupts, the player can gather new strength/dedication.

during the final race against time, shepard encounters harbinger, assuming direct control over his minions. 

at the last point of interest, shepard has the final confrontation. the crucible is powering up. harbinger makes the last push to ruin our effort. shepard fights bravely, but looses the last fight. harbinger grabs shepard and shows him/her the last view on earth - now we decide shepards personal fate (the crucible will fire regardless) with interrupts.

this could end in heroic sacrifice (to take harbinger with you) , a neutral end (shepard just dying with a smile - the jobs done) or a heroic action (that could save your life).


every taste could be satisfied. - lots of happy people.

have every view satisfied?
but it would conflict with  ...  "Art".

it would at least not jeopardise a sequel. maybe too videogamy.

the ending should have been a personal one - just like the story. if the player could decide shepards personal fate, it would have been nice and rewarding for everybody. to see the former choices "flash" before you, would give them the credit they deserve.

But it is a video game. To have a video game trying to not be a video game is............

... mass effect 3


(the videogamy-part was a jibe at biowares comments on the ending)

[Doctor Uburian]

1/10, of course, and i'm being generous.

[Archonsg]

Redbelle wrote...


But it is a video game. To have a video game trying to not be a video game is............

Apparently "Art".

[Dr_Extrem]

Archonsg wrote...

Redbelle wrote...


But it is a video game. To have a video game trying to not be a video game is............

Apparently "Art".

yes .. a fight against ones weaker self is not art .. its not selfreflection .. its not about the own existance ...
... its just videogamy.

[David7204]

The amount of people acting as if "LOLZ CANT MAKE IT LIKE A VIDEO GAME" was the guiding principle behind the endings when, so far as I've heard, the phrase was used literally once in the artbook is staggering.

Modifié par David7204, 17 novembre 2012 - 11:03 .

[Archonsg]

David7204 wrote...

The amount of people acting as if "LOLZ CANT MAKE IT LIKE A VIDEO GAME" was the guiding principle behind the endings when, so far as I've heard, the phrase was used literally once in the artbook is staggering.

There are also several videos and interviews where this "principle" was voiced both By Mac Walters and Casey Hudson.

Mass Effect 3 Final hours interview

The above video is rather informstive as well. 
What went through their minds when they decided to remove the series writers and take upon themselves to write the ending without peer feedack and think that it was a good idea, I can't even begin to guess.


ps: singular literral use, hardly.

Modifié par Archonsg, 17 novembre 2012 - 11:33 .

[Dr_Extrem]

Archonsg wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The amount of people acting as if "LOLZ CANT MAKE IT LIKE A VIDEO GAME" was the guiding principle behind the endings when, so far as I've heard, the phrase was used literally once in the artbook is staggering.

There are also several videos and interviews where this "principle" was voiced both By Mac Walters and Casey Hudson.

Mass Effect 3 Final hours interview

The above video is rather informstive as well. 
What went through their minds when they decided to remove the series writers and take upon themselves to write the ending without peer feedack and think that it was a good idea, I can't even begin to guess.

in hintsight - not the best idea.

i bet their egos must have had extra offices at that time.

pride comes before the fall.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 17 novembre 2012 - 11:34 .

[David7204]

Those reasons are moronic. If the ending had turned out outstanding, you would be claiming that writers and directors should be able to work without interference.

The stupidly simple fact is that sometimes practices like these work out and sometimes they don't. Pulling ridiculous reasons like these out of your butt as evidence that the ending was doomed to fail just makes you look like a clown.

Modifié par David7204, 17 novembre 2012 - 11:34 .

[Dr_Extrem]

David7204 wrote...

Those reasons are moronic. If the ending had turned out outstanding, you would be claiming that writers and directors should be able to work without interference.

The stupidly simple fact is that sometimes practices like these work out, sometimes they don't. Pulling ridiculous reasons like these out of your butt as evidence that the ending was doomed to fail just makes you look like a clown.

 
no .. i would state, that such a stunt can backfire on you quite easily.

[David7204]

Sure. It can also turn out great. This time it didn't. You need to acknowledge that when you speak about such practices instead of making ridiculous declarations like "The endings sucked because of pride."

[Dr_Extrem]

well they might have thought, that everything they touch turns into gold - they were wronged.

pulling of such a stunt can work - but the chances are slim. this time, it did not - they gambled and lost.

[David7204]

Yes. They did.

[Redbelle]

Archonsg wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The amount of people acting as if "LOLZ CANT MAKE IT LIKE A VIDEO GAME" was the guiding principle behind the endings when, so far as I've heard, the phrase was used literally once in the artbook is staggering.

There are also several videos and interviews where this "principle" was voiced both By Mac Walters and Casey Hudson.

Mass Effect 3 Final hours interview

The above video is rather informstive as well. 
What went through their minds when they decided to remove the series writers and take upon themselves to write the ending without peer feedack and think that it was a good idea, I can't even begin to guess.


ps: singular literral use, hardly.

Haven't seen this yet but before I go into it, I'll say I've been after something like this for awhile.

Just to get an idea of what they were thinking. It might be PR speak I see, but at least I'll have the opportunity to look them in the eye and read them.......... sort of.

*edit.

I'm just going to focus on one part of that vid for now.

End bosses are too video gamey........... that's what CH said. That video games have an end boss for the sake of having an end boss.

He also said they couldn't get an end boss scene to work.

These two statements are miles apart. If CH and co could not get an end boss to work in game, that's not because it's too video gamey to work. That's because they did not have the imagination to fit and end boss into the final hours of ME3 that fit with the context of the situation. DA:O managed this very well AND maintained the ability o contiune to narrative aspect of gameplay after the end boss.

Modifié par Redbelle, 17 novembre 2012 - 02:09 .

[KingZayd]

Ieldra2 wrote...



Well, perhaps there would've been a little less, from those who are really more bothered by the inconsistencies than the ending options as such, but the emotional intensity of most people's reactions appears to point another way. As a rule, you don't get that incensed about narrative inconsistencies as such.

For me if the inconsistencies were little it'd be fine. Unfortunately, they're ridiculous.

[Seival]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You said subjective. That means, if people don't sit back and carefully consider what's good and bad (which should rule out *both* the 1 and the 10 btw.) but instead go "F*ck! I HATE the ending! This is a 1" this is perfectly within the terms of the poll. Personally, I have no idea how anyone can vote 10 either after carefully considering what's bad and good.

It's simple. The ending is not just about your final choice. It's about hard moral decisions in general, and about very important philosophical questions...

...Meaning of the ending and constructive debate about it is what attracts me the most. Adventure part of ME Trilogy is nice, but adventure is not what makes a story great. Only meaning makes a story really great.

Modifié par Seival, 17 novembre 2012 - 02:57 .

[Dr_Extrem]

Seival wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

You said subjective. That means, if people don't sit back and carefully consider what's good and bad (which should rule out *both* the 1 and the 10 btw.) but instead go "F*ck! I HATE the ending! This is a 1" this is perfectly within the terms of the poll. Personally, I have no idea how anyone can vote 10 either after carefully considering what's bad and good.

It's simple. The ending is not just about your final choice. It's about hard moral decisions in general, and about very important philosophical questions...

...Meaning of the ending and constructive debate about it is what attracts me the most. Adventure part of ME Trilogy is nice, but adventure not what makes a story great. Only meaning makes a story really great.

philosophical question .. in a game, designed for cod-players and half matures - maybe the wrong plot for an audience and badly executed as well.

[GreyLycanTrope]

I always got the sense the philosophical questions were largely meant to be ignored, especially after EC when they tried to make it as happy a possible. "Yes you gave up something to beat the Reapers, but don't think about that too hard. Just remember you saved the galaxy and became legend, it doesn't matter how you did it. Sacrifice! Deep! Now look at the symbolism rainbow!"

I say this because the more I think about the implications the more disturbed/disgusted I am.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 17 novembre 2012 - 03:09 .

[Seival]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Seival wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

You said subjective. That means, if people don't sit back and carefully consider what's good and bad (which should rule out *both* the 1 and the 10 btw.) but instead go "F*ck! I HATE the ending! This is a 1" this is perfectly within the terms of the poll. Personally, I have no idea how anyone can vote 10 either after carefully considering what's bad and good.

It's simple. The ending is not just about your final choice. It's about hard moral decisions in general, and about very important philosophical questions...

...Meaning of the ending and constructive debate about it is what attracts me the most. Adventure part of ME Trilogy is nice, but adventure not what makes a story great. Only meaning makes a story really great.

philosophical question .. in a game, designed for cod-players and half matures - maybe the wrong plot for an audience and badly executed as well.

Mass Effect is available for everyone who is 18+

It's not a BioWare's fault that ME fan base has a lot of kids and more old people who care only about a story adventure flow, and never like to think about a story meaning. It's a fault of modern societies.

Modifié par Seival, 17 novembre 2012 - 03:14 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Seival wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Seival wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

You said subjective. That means, if people don't sit back and carefully consider what's good and bad (which should rule out *both* the 1 and the 10 btw.) but instead go "F*ck! I HATE the ending! This is a 1" this is perfectly within the terms of the poll. Personally, I have no idea how anyone can vote 10 either after carefully considering what's bad and good.

It's simple. The ending is not just about your final choice. It's about hard moral decisions in general, and about very important philosophical questions...

...Meaning of the ending and constructive debate about it is what attracts me the most. Adventure part of ME Trilogy is nice, but adventure not what makes a story great. Only meaning makes a story really great.

philosophical question .. in a game, designed for cod-players and half matures - maybe the wrong plot for an audience and badly executed as well.

Mass Effect is available for everyone who is 18+

It's not a BioWare's fault that ME fan base has a lot of kids and more old people who care only about story adventure flow, and never like to think about a story meaning. It's a fault of modern societies.

Oh, dear... story meaning is simple crap, there is no morality behind the choices given by Catalyst they are all violation some sort of, I and lot of others didn´t paid to accomplish someone else programming with conversation filled with half-truths and fallacies - I paid to kick Reaper´s ass and coherent storytelling, ME3 has neither of them...

PS: And sooner than you start with some deep**** philosophical mind****, I will remind you that your last thread which was great example of Godwin´s law.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 17 novembre 2012 - 03:20 .

[AresKeith]

Seival I'll say this again: stop already

This thread is like the Normandy crash site thread you made

[Dr_Extrem]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Seival wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Seival wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

You said subjective. That means, if people don't sit back and carefully consider what's good and bad (which should rule out *both* the 1 and the 10 btw.) but instead go "F*ck! I HATE the ending! This is a 1" this is perfectly within the terms of the poll. Personally, I have no idea how anyone can vote 10 either after carefully considering what's bad and good.

It's simple. The ending is not just about your final choice. It's about hard moral decisions in general, and about very important philosophical questions...

...Meaning of the ending and constructive debate about it is what attracts me the most. Adventure part of ME Trilogy is nice, but adventure not what makes a story great. Only meaning makes a story really great.

philosophical question .. in a game, designed for cod-players and half matures - maybe the wrong plot for an audience and badly executed as well.

Mass Effect is available for everyone who is 18+

It's not a BioWare's fault that ME fan base has a lot of kids and more old people who care only about story adventure flow, and never like to think about a story meaning. It's a fault of modern societies.

Oh, dear... story meaning is simple crap, there is no morality behind the choices given by Catalyst they are all violation some sort of, I and lot of others didn´t paid to accomplish someone else programming with conversation filled with half-truths and fallacies - I paid to kick Reaper´s ass and coherent storytelling, ME3 has neither of them...

PS: And sooner than you start with some deep**** philosophical mind****, I will remind you your last thread which was great example of Godwin´s law.

godwins law ... **** ... i am not goosestepping for you!


and the game is for 15+ in most countries. most people of that age want to get laid on prom - thats all they think about ... deep philosophical questions are interesting for the upper 1% of adaults - and they might not play video games.

sorry .. target missed.

[dreamgazer]

Seival wrote...

Mass Effect is available for everyone who is 18+

It's not a BioWare's fault that ME fan base has a lot of kids and more old people who care only about a story adventure flow, and never like to think about a story meaning. It's a fault of modern societies.

Several threads I've hopped into have aggressively delved into the meaning of the story: morality, ethics, feasibility, and cohesiveness with the lore. People have gotten their hands dirty with this stuff, Seival, and they still find objection with it and the choices you galvanize. Sorry, but they're not the mindless cretins you'd like for them to be.

[Seival]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Seival wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Seival wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

You said subjective. That means, if people don't sit back and carefully consider what's good and bad (which should rule out *both* the 1 and the 10 btw.) but instead go "F*ck! I HATE the ending! This is a 1" this is perfectly within the terms of the poll. Personally, I have no idea how anyone can vote 10 either after carefully considering what's bad and good.

It's simple. The ending is not just about your final choice. It's about hard moral decisions in general, and about very important philosophical questions...

...Meaning of the ending and constructive debate about it is what attracts me the most. Adventure part of ME Trilogy is nice, but adventure not what makes a story great. Only meaning makes a story really great.

philosophical question .. in a game, designed for cod-players and half matures - maybe the wrong plot for an audience and badly executed as well.

Mass Effect is available for everyone who is 18+

It's not a BioWare's fault that ME fan base has a lot of kids and more old people who care only about story adventure flow, and never like to think about a story meaning. It's a fault of modern societies.

Oh, dear... story meaning is simple crap, there is no morality behind the choices given by Catalyst they are all violation some sort of, I and lot of others didn´t paid to accomplish someone else programming with conversation filled with half-truths and fallacies - I paid to kick Reaper´s ass and coherent storytelling, ME3 has neither of them...

PS: And sooner than you start with some deep**** philosophical mind****, I will remind you your last thread which was great example of Godwin´s law.

godwins law ... **** ... i am not goosestepping for you!


and the game is for 15+ in most countries. most people of that age want to get laid on prom - thats all they think about ... deep philosophical questions are interesting for the upper 1% of adaults - and they might not play video games.

sorry .. target missed.

You actually partially proved my assumptions. The problem is not in the ending itself. The problem is in some people attitude to "reading a story"...

...Let's educate 15+ people instead of asking devs to reduce story to 15+ level. Helping people to understand would be much more constructive and productive than ruining a great story. Don't you think so?