Seival wrote...
You actually partially proved my assumptions. The problem is not in the ending itself. The problem is in some people attitude to "reading a story"...
...Let's educate 15+ people instead of asking devs to reduce story to 15+ level. Helping people to understand would be much more constructive and productive than ruining a great story. Don't you think so?
Seival wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
Seival wrote...
Ieldra2 wrote...
You said subjective. That means, if people don't sit back and carefully consider what's good and bad (which should rule out *both* the 1 and the 10 btw.) but instead go "F*ck! I HATE the ending! This is a 1" this is perfectly within the terms of the poll. Personally, I have no idea how anyone can vote 10 either after carefully considering what's bad and good.
It's simple. The ending is not just about your final choice. It's about hard moral decisions in general, and about very important philosophical questions...
...Meaning of the ending and constructive debate about it is what attracts me the most. Adventure part of ME Trilogy is nice, but adventure not what makes a story great. Only meaning makes a story really great.
philosophical question .. in a game, designed for cod-players and half matures - maybe the wrong plot for an audience and badly executed as well.
Mass Effect is available for everyone who is 18+
It's not a BioWare's fault that ME fan base has a lot of kids and more old people who care only about a story adventure flow, and never like to think about a story meaning. It's a fault of modern societies.
Modifié par Redbelle, 17 novembre 2012 - 03:54 .
dreamgazer wrote...
Seival wrote...
Mass Effect is available for everyone who is 18+
It's not a BioWare's fault that ME fan base has a lot of kids and more old people who care only about a story adventure flow, and never like to think about a story meaning. It's a fault of modern societies.
Several threads I've hopped into have aggressively delved into the meaning of the story: morality, ethics, feasibility, and cohesiveness with the lore. People have gotten their hands dirty with this stuff, Seival, and they still find objection with it and the choices you galvanize. Sorry, but they're not the mindless cretins you'd like for them to be.
Modifié par Seival, 17 novembre 2012 - 03:58 .
Seival wrote...
dreamgazer wrote...
Seival wrote...
Mass Effect is available for everyone who is 18+
It's not a BioWare's fault that ME fan base has a lot of kids and more old people who care only about a story adventure flow, and never like to think about a story meaning. It's a fault of modern societies.
Several threads I've hopped into have aggressively delved into the meaning of the story: morality, ethics, feasibility, and cohesiveness with the lore. People have gotten their hands dirty with this stuff, Seival, and they still find objection with it and the choices you galvanize. Sorry, but they're not the mindless cretins you'd like for them to be.
Sorry, but haters and dislikers only talk about "ending doesn't fit the story", "plot holes", and "feasibility". Morality and ethics questions were raised on forums only by pro-enders or people who at least accepted the endings as they are...
...Anyway, haters gonna hate, because it's just their subjective point of view. It's really hard to help them to change their minds.
Modifié par Redbelle, 17 novembre 2012 - 04:02 .
Seival wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
Applepie_Svk wrote...
Seival wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
Seival wrote...
Ieldra2 wrote...
You said subjective. That means, if people don't sit back and carefully consider what's good and bad (which should rule out *both* the 1 and the 10 btw.) but instead go "F*ck! I HATE the ending! This is a 1" this is perfectly within the terms of the poll. Personally, I have no idea how anyone can vote 10 either after carefully considering what's bad and good.
It's simple. The ending is not just about your final choice. It's about hard moral decisions in general, and about very important philosophical questions...
...Meaning of the ending and constructive debate about it is what attracts me the most. Adventure part of ME Trilogy is nice, but adventure not what makes a story great. Only meaning makes a story really great.
philosophical question .. in a game, designed for cod-players and half matures - maybe the wrong plot for an audience and badly executed as well.
Mass Effect is available for everyone who is 18+
It's not a BioWare's fault that ME fan base has a lot of kids and more old people who care only about story adventure flow, and never like to think about a story meaning. It's a fault of modern societies.
Oh, dear... story meaning is simple crap, there is no morality behind the choices given by Catalyst they are all violation some sort of, I and lot of others didn´t paid to accomplish someone else programming with conversation filled with half-truths and fallacies - I paid to kick Reaper´s ass and coherent storytelling, ME3 has neither of them...
PS: And sooner than you start with some deep**** philosophical mind****, I will remind you your last thread which was great example of Godwin´s law.
godwins law ... **** ... i am not goosestepping for you!
and the game is for 15+ in most countries. most people of that age want to get laid on prom - thats all they think about ... deep philosophical questions are interesting for the upper 1% of adaults - and they might not play video games.
sorry .. target missed.
You actually partially proved my assumptions. The problem is not in the ending itself. The problem is in some people attitude to "reading a story"...
...Let's educate 15+ people instead of asking devs to reduce story to 15+ level. Helping people to understand would be much more constructive and productive than ruining a great story. Don't you think so?
Redbelle wrote...
I would think you would be a little more tolerant of other people subjective interpretations.
Modifié par Seival, 17 novembre 2012 - 04:19 .
Seival wrote...
Redbelle wrote...
I would think you would be a little more tolerant of other people subjective interpretations.
I never forced anyone to accept my point of view, I only suggested to accept it sometimes...
...Am I vocal supporter of ME3 ending? Yes. I like the ending, and this is my subjective point of view, which is not lesser than point of view of some vocal hater.
...In other words - my subjective opinion also should be tolerated. Correct?
Dr_Extrem wrote...
Seival wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
Applepie_Svk wrote...
Seival wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
Seival wrote...
Ieldra2 wrote...
You said subjective. That means, if people don't sit back and carefully consider what's good and bad (which should rule out *both* the 1 and the 10 btw.) but instead go "F*ck! I HATE the ending! This is a 1" this is perfectly within the terms of the poll. Personally, I have no idea how anyone can vote 10 either after carefully considering what's bad and good.
It's simple. The ending is not just about your final choice. It's about hard moral decisions in general, and about very important philosophical questions...
...Meaning of the ending and constructive debate about it is what attracts me the most. Adventure part of ME Trilogy is nice, but adventure not what makes a story great. Only meaning makes a story really great.
philosophical question .. in a game, designed for cod-players and half matures - maybe the wrong plot for an audience and badly executed as well.
Mass Effect is available for everyone who is 18+
It's not a BioWare's fault that ME fan base has a lot of kids and more old people who care only about story adventure flow, and never like to think about a story meaning. It's a fault of modern societies.
Oh, dear... story meaning is simple crap, there is no morality behind the choices given by Catalyst they are all violation some sort of, I and lot of others didn´t paid to accomplish someone else programming with conversation filled with half-truths and fallacies - I paid to kick Reaper´s ass and coherent storytelling, ME3 has neither of them...
PS: And sooner than you start with some deep**** philosophical mind****, I will remind you your last thread which was great example of Godwin´s law.
godwins law ... **** ... i am not goosestepping for you!
and the game is for 15+ in most countries. most people of that age want to get laid on prom - thats all they think about ... deep philosophical questions are interesting for the upper 1% of adaults - and they might not play video games.
sorry .. target missed.
You actually partially proved my assumptions. The problem is not in the ending itself. The problem is in some people attitude to "reading a story"...
...Let's educate 15+ people instead of asking devs to reduce story to 15+ level. Helping people to understand would be much more constructive and productive than ruining a great story. Don't you think so?
if i want to educate myself, i read book - real books .. from dostoevsky, grass, mann, walser ... you know .. brooks from writers, who have a serious approach on existentialism and the big questions of life.
the mind of a 15 year old is not ready for stuff like this. this is interlectual hardcore content, that would overwhelm most people. not every mind can understand interlectual stuff. people are too different and a video game is definaltely the wrong place to stuff education down someones throat.
in addition, its so badly executed, that a serious writer would tear his hair out. while reading/experiencing it.
Modifié par Seival, 17 novembre 2012 - 04:42 .
Seival wrote...
Redbelle wrote...
I would think you would be a little more tolerant of other people subjective interpretations.
I never forced anyone to accept my point of view, I only suggested to accept it sometimes...
...Am I vocal supporter of ME3 ending? Yes. I like the ending, and this is my subjective point of view, which is not lesser compared to point of view of some vocal hater.
...In other words - my subjective opinion also should be tolerated. Correct?
Modifié par Redbelle, 17 novembre 2012 - 04:45 .
Seival wrote...
Redbelle wrote...
I would think you would be a little more tolerant of other people subjective interpretations.
I never forced anyone to accept my point of view, I only suggested to accept it sometimes...
...Am I vocal supporter of ME3 ending? Yes. I like the ending, and this is my subjective point of view, which is not lesser compared to point of view of some vocal hater.
...In other words - my subjective opinion also should be tolerated. Correct?
Seival wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
Seival wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
Applepie_Svk wrote...
Seival wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
Seival wrote...
Ieldra2 wrote...
You said subjective. That means, if people don't sit back and carefully consider what's good and bad (which should rule out *both* the 1 and the 10 btw.) but instead go "F*ck! I HATE the ending! This is a 1" this is perfectly within the terms of the poll. Personally, I have no idea how anyone can vote 10 either after carefully considering what's bad and good.
It's simple. The ending is not just about your final choice. It's about hard moral decisions in general, and about very important philosophical questions...
...Meaning of the ending and constructive debate about it is what attracts me the most. Adventure part of ME Trilogy is nice, but adventure not what makes a story great. Only meaning makes a story really great.
philosophical question .. in a game, designed for cod-players and half matures - maybe the wrong plot for an audience and badly executed as well.
Mass Effect is available for everyone who is 18+
It's not a BioWare's fault that ME fan base has a lot of kids and more old people who care only about story adventure flow, and never like to think about a story meaning. It's a fault of modern societies.
Oh, dear... story meaning is simple crap, there is no morality behind the choices given by Catalyst they are all violation some sort of, I and lot of others didn´t paid to accomplish someone else programming with conversation filled with half-truths and fallacies - I paid to kick Reaper´s ass and coherent storytelling, ME3 has neither of them...
PS: And sooner than you start with some deep**** philosophical mind****, I will remind you your last thread which was great example of Godwin´s law.
godwins law ... **** ... i am not goosestepping for you!
and the game is for 15+ in most countries. most people of that age want to get laid on prom - thats all they think about ... deep philosophical questions are interesting for the upper 1% of adaults - and they might not play video games.
sorry .. target missed.
You actually partially proved my assumptions. The problem is not in the ending itself. The problem is in some people attitude to "reading a story"...
...Let's educate 15+ people instead of asking devs to reduce story to 15+ level. Helping people to understand would be much more constructive and productive than ruining a great story. Don't you think so?
if i want to educate myself, i read book - real books .. from dostoevsky, grass, mann, walser ... you know .. brooks from writers, who have a serious approach on existentialism and the big questions of life.
the mind of a 15 year old is not ready for stuff like this. this is interlectual hardcore content, that would overwhelm most people. not every mind can understand interlectual stuff. people are too different and a video game is definaltely the wrong place to stuff education down someones throat.
in addition, its so badly executed, that a serious writer would tear his hair out. while reading/experiencing it.
It executed better than in any other game.
RPG games like Planescape: Torment and Mass Effect are so deep that can be considered as really good books. Some people just don't realize that games are evolving too.
Movies are "books of 20th century". Games are "books of 21st century". But it doesn't make all movies and games good. Only a small amount of books are really good. Only a small amount of movies are really good. And of course, only a small amount of games are really good.
Dr_Extrem wrote...
Seival wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
Seival wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
Applepie_Svk wrote...
Seival wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
Seival wrote...
Ieldra2 wrote...
You said subjective. That means, if people don't sit back and carefully consider what's good and bad (which should rule out *both* the 1 and the 10 btw.) but instead go "F*ck! I HATE the ending! This is a 1" this is perfectly within the terms of the poll. Personally, I have no idea how anyone can vote 10 either after carefully considering what's bad and good.
It's simple. The ending is not just about your final choice. It's about hard moral decisions in general, and about very important philosophical questions...
...Meaning of the ending and constructive debate about it is what attracts me the most. Adventure part of ME Trilogy is nice, but adventure not what makes a story great. Only meaning makes a story really great.
philosophical question .. in a game, designed for cod-players and half matures - maybe the wrong plot for an audience and badly executed as well.
Mass Effect is available for everyone who is 18+
It's not a BioWare's fault that ME fan base has a lot of kids and more old people who care only about story adventure flow, and never like to think about a story meaning. It's a fault of modern societies.
Oh, dear... story meaning is simple crap, there is no morality behind the choices given by Catalyst they are all violation some sort of, I and lot of others didn´t paid to accomplish someone else programming with conversation filled with half-truths and fallacies - I paid to kick Reaper´s ass and coherent storytelling, ME3 has neither of them...
PS: And sooner than you start with some deep**** philosophical mind****, I will remind you your last thread which was great example of Godwin´s law.
godwins law ... **** ... i am not goosestepping for you!
and the game is for 15+ in most countries. most people of that age want to get laid on prom - thats all they think about ... deep philosophical questions are interesting for the upper 1% of adaults - and they might not play video games.
sorry .. target missed.
You actually partially proved my assumptions. The problem is not in the ending itself. The problem is in some people attitude to "reading a story"...
...Let's educate 15+ people instead of asking devs to reduce story to 15+ level. Helping people to understand would be much more constructive and productive than ruining a great story. Don't you think so?
if i want to educate myself, i read book - real books .. from dostoevsky, grass, mann, walser ... you know .. brooks from writers, who have a serious approach on existentialism and the big questions of life.
the mind of a 15 year old is not ready for stuff like this. this is interlectual hardcore content, that would overwhelm most people. not every mind can understand interlectual stuff. people are too different and a video game is definaltely the wrong place to stuff education down someones throat.
in addition, its so badly executed, that a serious writer would tear his hair out. while reading/experiencing it.
It executed better than in any other game.
RPG games like Planescape: Torment and Mass Effect are so deep that can be considered as really good books. Some people just don't realize that games are evolving too.
Movies are "books of 20th century". Games are "books of 21st century". But it doesn't make all movies and games good. Only a small amount of books are really good. Only a small amount of movies are really good. And of course, only a small amount of games are really good.
imho, an action rpg, where you kill and blow heads off, is the wrong place to ask such questions. movies are not the books of the 20th century - books are the books of it. neither are games the books of our time.
Redbelle wrote...
If you wish to be tolerated then you yourself have to learn to tolerate and be respectful of others. That means not dismissing views that you do not personally agree with. It is a door that swings both ways.
KingZayd wrote...
I disagree. Just because you kill and blow heads off doesn't mean you can't have something thoughtful and meaningful. Unfortunately ME3 tries and fails miserably.
Guest_magnetite_*
the mind of a 15 year old is not ready for stuff like this. this is interlectual hardcore content, that would overwhelm most people. not every mind can understand interlectual stuff. people are too different and a video game is definaltely the wrong place to stuff education down someones throat.
in addition, its so badly executed, that a serious writer would tear his hair out. while reading/experiencing it.
Going by the age certificate on the boxes I can say that:
ME1 - 12yrs
ME2 - 15yrs
ME3 - 15yrs
These are age ratings given as used within the UK so I can't say if these age certificates are accurate in other countries who may choose to use different age rating systems.
Modifié par magnetite, 17 novembre 2012 - 06:03 .
That's why ME3 has now MP, and why they are mainly producing new content for MP at the moment.magnetite wrote...
I agree, Mass Effect has always been a thought provoking trilogy. If people were expecting a mindless finale where they didn't have to think about anything, then Mass Effect is not designed for them. Those people aren't the target audience.
Dr_Extrem wrote...
in addition, its so badly executed, that a serious writer would tear his hair out. while reading/experiencing it.
magnetite wrote...
the mind of a 15 year old is not ready for stuff like this. this is interlectual hardcore content, that would overwhelm most people. not every mind can understand interlectual stuff. people are too different and a video game is definaltely the wrong place to stuff education down someones throat.
in addition, its so badly executed, that a serious writer would tear his hair out. while reading/experiencing it.
I agree, Mass Effect has always been a thought provoking trilogy. If people were expecting a mindless finale where they didn't have to think about anything, then Mass Effect is not designed for them. Those people aren't the target audience.
The other thing is that although Mass Effect is a video game, that's just the medium used to present the story. They could have presented it in the form of a film or a book with the same content.
Video games aren't just for young kids. I know a friend of mine who's 61 and he still plays them.
Dr_Extrem wrote...
magnetite wrote...
the mind of a 15 year old is not ready for stuff like this. this is interlectual hardcore content, that would overwhelm most people. not every mind can understand interlectual stuff. people are too different and a video game is definaltely the wrong place to stuff education down someones throat.
in addition, its so badly executed, that a serious writer would tear his hair out. while reading/experiencing it.
I agree, Mass Effect has always been a thought provoking trilogy. If people were expecting a mindless finale where they didn't have to think about anything, then Mass Effect is not designed for them. Those people aren't the target audience.
The other thing is that although Mass Effect is a video game, that's just the medium used to present the story. They could have presented it in the form of a film or a book with the same content.
Video games aren't just for young kids. I know a friend of mine who's 61 and he still plays them.
mass effect was designed for people 15+ ... for many people deep, interlectual content is too much. there is a difference between "thought provoking" and "interlectually overwhelming" - this border is blurry but it should not be crossed.
i am not the youngest anymore - and i think i can understand the interlectual meaning and range of the endings. the questions are important and have a meaning:
"is it all right to sacrifice the few, so the many can survive?"
"is my personal integrity more valuable than the life of others?"
"can i place myself on top of the galaxy to rule and watch over the rest?"
"is it right to force a new lifestyle on society, even if it is for their own good?"
all those questions should be answered with no - still we have to say yes to one of those questions.
these conflicts are thought provoking - but it does not matter, because we have to choose one of those questionable outcomes to finish the game.
a person with less education or a simple minded person could get that in the wrong way and start to think, that one of those choices is right.
placing 4 immoral and disgusting ending choices in the game is the wrong massage.
Modifié par KingZayd, 17 novembre 2012 - 06:20 .
Yeah bascially, interesting premise, but wrong story to place it in.KingZayd wrote...
Again I disagree. We can't go round treating everyone like babies who can't think for themselves.
I think the decision itself is very interesting philosophically (probably the only reason why I've posted on these forums so much, rather than stopping once the EC didn't fix the endings). The way they're introduced in the game simply doesn't make sense though.
Modifié par Greylycantrope, 17 novembre 2012 - 06:29 .
KingZayd wrote...
Dr_Extrem wrote...
magnetite wrote...
the mind of a 15 year old is not ready for stuff like this. this is interlectual hardcore content, that would overwhelm most people. not every mind can understand interlectual stuff. people are too different and a video game is definaltely the wrong place to stuff education down someones throat.
in addition, its so badly executed, that a serious writer would tear his hair out. while reading/experiencing it.
I agree, Mass Effect has always been a thought provoking trilogy. If people were expecting a mindless finale where they didn't have to think about anything, then Mass Effect is not designed for them. Those people aren't the target audience.
The other thing is that although Mass Effect is a video game, that's just the medium used to present the story. They could have presented it in the form of a film or a book with the same content.
Video games aren't just for young kids. I know a friend of mine who's 61 and he still plays them.
mass effect was designed for people 15+ ... for many people deep, interlectual content is too much. there is a difference between "thought provoking" and "interlectually overwhelming" - this border is blurry but it should not be crossed.
i am not the youngest anymore - and i think i can understand the interlectual meaning and range of the endings. the questions are important and have a meaning:
"is it all right to sacrifice the few, so the many can survive?"
"is my personal integrity more valuable than the life of others?"
"can i place myself on top of the galaxy to rule and watch over the rest?"
"is it right to force a new lifestyle on society, even if it is for their own good?"
all those questions should be answered with no - still we have to say yes to one of those questions.
these conflicts are thought provoking - but it does not matter, because we have to choose one of those questionable outcomes to finish the game.
a person with less education or a simple minded person could get that in the wrong way and start to think, that one of those choices is right.
placing 4 immoral and disgusting ending choices in the game is the wrong massage.
Again I disagree. We can't go round treating everyone like babies who can't think for themselves.
I think the decision itself is very interesting philosophically (probably the only reason why I've posted on these forums so much, rather than stopping once the EC didn't fix the endings). The way they're introduced in the game simply doesn't make sense though.
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