428 réponses à ce sujet

[Applepie_Svk]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and here is the problem - without sense.

i support deep, meaningfull questions in games - as long, as they make sense and do not demand too much of the viewer. the endings show the possibility to overwhelm the viewer, because they are thought to the end. it is not really about the questions that bugs me - it is the presentation.

if you cant bring them up the right way, you better dont do it in the first place. 

And now compare ME3 endings and this...

[Dr_Extrem]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and here is the problem - without sense.

i support deep, meaningfull questions in games - as long, as they make sense and do not demand too much of the viewer. the endings show the possibility to overwhelm the viewer, because they are thought to the end. it is not really about the questions that bugs me - it is the presentation.

if you cant bring them up the right way, you better dont do it in the first place. 

And now compare ME3 endings and this...

i am sorry - but i cant do that ... i dont know anything about the story of dishonored and judging an ending on a severeal minute long cutscene is careless.

[Seival]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and here is the problem - without sense.

i support deep, meaningfull questions in games - as long, as they make sense and do not demand too much of the viewer. the endings show the possibility to overwhelm the viewer, because they are thought to the end. it is not really about the questions that bugs me - it is the presentation.

if you cant bring them up the right way, you better dont do it in the first place. 

And now compare ME3 endings and this...

ME3 endings are much better of course.

[KingZayd]

Archonsg wrote...

@kingzayd

If its reality you want then Bioware should go full throttle and depict war at its worse. Rape by servicemen, by your own troops, atrocities committed by both sides, well we already get the Reaper side but the council forces are no angels either.

How about friendly fire and or making the choice to send in people to die over an objective only to have command decide to cede it to the enemy?

Or at a more personal level, have Shepard chose carry out an execute order on a colony including women and children because they are indoctrinated?

These are realities in war.
I can put up a list of things I have seen / heard of / experienced so they aren't just blind speculation but do you honestly think Bioware or anyone in the gaming industry is willing to bear with a Adult only rating for their game?

If they want to. Are there not plenty of games that are rated 18+? So it's not unheard of.
They could certainly do so in a Game of Thrones/ A song of Ice and Fire inspired game.

I never said I wanted gritty reality. I wouldn't mind, but I don't need it. In fact there are lots of situations in which I very prefer less realism (I like shotguns sending people flying, despite that being incorrect. I also prefer arcade racing to racing simulations)

 I said I wanted something that made sense. And I said there was nothing wrong with including philosophical questions, so long as they make sense.

Modifié par KingZayd, 17 novembre 2012 - 07:06 .

[Bob Garbage]

Mass Effect was one of my favourite series before ME3 had come out. I remember playing ME1 for the first time when it came out, and fell in love with the universe and the possibilities it held, like many. Mass Effect 2, though quite different in aethestics, was a great game as well. Even though in retrospect, it was clearly the beginning of the end. (For Metallica fans, it's their Black Album lolz). But it expanded on that universe that held so many possibilities, Shepard met more races, saw more planets, and all of what we loved about the story of Mass Effect remained intact, even if the gameplay had changed. (in my opinion, for the better). Even if this is when Mass Effect started being aimed towards...shall we say, gamers more interested in shooting than the story, all in all, there was obvious love put into making the game. For the middle part of a trilogy, the ending was perfect. Mass Effect 3 has moments of greatness within it, how could it not, with such a great history to build off of? But so many characters and important aspects of the story were treated with almost no respect by the writers, if they were considered at all. That said, it is a nicely polished game with even better gameplay, I have fun playing it even today even if I find it quite easy.......but it is not Mass Effect. It is nothing like the previous games and not what anyone who started playing ME1 6 years ago would have ever expected. At times, it's so cliche and lazy, I feel like I'm being baited. I can only assume it's because they wanted it dumbed down. Yeah, it's a good game, but in terms of trilogy, and in terms of a series I once loved more than most....Mass Effect 3 killed Mass Effect, for me. I miss the feeling I had with ME1, and even 2. I'm not super smart, but I'm smart enough to know that ME3 was not made for fans like me. Even with the EC ending, the trilogy gets a 6/10, which is generous. Before ME3, it was probably 8 or 9/10.

Modifié par Bob Garbage, 17 novembre 2012 - 07:09 .

[Raizo]

I can only judge the endings from what I have experienced myself and since I have only beaten the game once back when ME3 first came out my only frame of reference is the endins before the extended cut.

I would rank it 0/10. Not only were the 3 choices stupid ( not to mention the way they were presented and the fact that they came from the star brat ) but there were too many things that weren't explained at all and there no closure anywhere for anything or anyone.

[dreamgazer]

Seival wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

and here is the problem - without sense.

i support deep, meaningfull questions in games - as long, as they make sense and do not demand too much of the viewer. the endings show the possibility to overwhelm the viewer, because they are thought to the end. it is not really about the questions that bugs me - it is the presentation.

if you cant bring them up the right way, you better dont do it in the first place. 

And now compare ME3 endings and this...

ME3 endings are much better of course.

They're not really comparable, but I liked the variation and implications in Dishonored's endings a lot, and they're observably different depending on gameplay values.  The choice and consequence in that game, somewhat similar to paragon and renegade decision-making in terms of gameplay (and a few big decisions), isn't anything to scoff at.

Playing through both paths provided what'll probably be my favorite gaming experience this year, though that's not saying a whole lot considering the alternatives. 

[Bob Garbage]

Dishonored is a great game for sure. It does feel a little weird how all of a sudden everyone hates you if you choose a lethal path, but ultimately I'm not expecting the same variation in a FPS as I am Mass Effect.

[dreamgazer]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Eh, I really don't like the idea of Dishonored having a contrived morality system, just like Bioshock did. I was going to get it, but now I feel the game will go OMG YOU MONSTER if I don't feel like knocking people unconscious over and over again.

You can maintain a balance and still get the lower-chaos ending.  It's not quite that contrived. 

I was fairly aggressive in my first playthrough, testing the waters with the abilities, weapons, explosions, and stealth, and it still almost chalked me up for the "good" side.  But yeah, it's pretty binary if you want to go in with guns blazing, and you'll have to deal with more diseased enemies level by level if you kill more frequently.  Smaller elements, like deaths of secondary characters and how you handle the final mission, do impact the end scenes.  It's not as rigid as Bioshock, but it's not hyper-dynamic either.

Ultimately, yes: lotsa killing will get you labeled a quasi-monster, but it has story reasons for that. 

[Dr_Extrem]

magnetite wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...
a person with less education or a simple minded person could get that in the wrong way and start to think, that one of those choices is right.

placing 4 immoral and disgusting ending choices in the game is the wrong massage.

What I did when I first finished the game was instead of trying to ask for the developers to expand on the ending or fix it and explain every single detail, I used some simple logic and reasoning. In the end, based on my observations I came to the conclusion that the ending was fine and people just missed all the hints.

I do not have a university education like some, but a little logic and reason is all it took.

my problem is, that for every hint i find, there is another hint, that leads into the opposite direction.

the ending itself is badly executed and feels rushed. the deus ex machina popping up at the end, is the peak of impertinence - it is almost insulting.

the ending is written badly and the final choice is maybe a logical conclusion but that does not alter the fact, that the player has to choose between 4 disgusting atrocities to commit.


another problem is, that some people here on the forum believe, that sacrificing the geth is totally ok to save the galaxy - despite the fact, that they are living, thinking and sentient entitiies. that degrades life as a whole.

ok its just a game - but such trends in thinking are scary.

[KingZayd]

magnetite wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...
a person with less education or a simple minded person could get that in the wrong way and start to think, that one of those choices is right.

placing 4 immoral and disgusting ending choices in the game is the wrong massage.

What I did when I first finished the game was instead of trying to ask for the developers to expand on the ending or fix it and explain every single detail, I used some simple logic and reasoning. In the end, based on my observations I came to the conclusion that the ending was fine and people just missed all the hints that the game has provided for you. The devs even said that the explanation for the ending is in the game if you are looking for the clues. Bioware's games are known for their attention to detail. 

Even though I have tried to explain the hints here on the forums, people just passed the clues off as plot holes. So I guess I can't be held responsible. 

I do not have a university education like some, but a little logic and reason is all it took.

A little more, and you might begin to see the problems.

[2Shepards]

Ending alone? 0/10

[Applepie_Svk]

magnetite wrote...

The ending may appear to be a Deus Ex Machina ending on the surface, but that's only from a literal point of view. The ending is one of the many non-literal points of the story as confirmed by the developers. 

As for sacrificing the Geth, well, people just believed whatever the boy said (the child is basically just Harbinger in disguise as revealed by Leviathan). Even without Leviathan, I did pick up that the kid was not working in my best interest and was trying to trick me.

Till IT is not proved it´s nothing more than a theory, and believe me that I would like to see it become truth but till then it´s nothing more than just a dream or desire. Even if IT turn to be true, than we have unfinished product and I as lot of others weren´t buying unfinished product and get full context thru multiple paid DLCs, it´s shady bussines practice.

I find quite genius fight of minds and beliefs in IT and that´s the part which I liked aside that antagonist remain as antagonist and not some tools for rogue AI with some savior complex.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 17 novembre 2012 - 09:28 .

[Dr_Extrem]

magnetite wrote...

my problem is, that for every hint i find, there is another hint, that leads into the opposite direction.

the ending itself is badly executed and feels rushed. the deus ex machina popping up at the end, is the peak of impertinence - it is almost insulting.

the ending is written badly and the final choice is maybe a logical conclusion but that does not alter the fact, that the player has to choose between 4 disgusting atrocities to commit.


another problem is, that some people here on the forum believe, that sacrificing the geth is totally ok to save the galaxy - despite the fact, that they are living, thinking and sentient entitiies. that degrades life as a whole.

ok its just a game - but such trends in thinking are scary.

The ending may appear to be a Deus Ex Machina ending on the surface, but that's only from a literal point of view. The ending is one of the many non-literal points of the story as confirmed by the developers.

As for sacrificing the Geth, well, people just believed whatever the boy said (the child is basically just Harbinger in disguise as revealed by Leviathan). Even without Leviathan, I did pick up that the kid was not working in my best interest and was trying to trick me.

ok .. it is going into THAT direction ... if any of the theories (atm they are only theories) come out to be true, the endings would be great.

sadly we have to take the endings at face value, until something else is official.


if they say that the endings can not be taken literally, it adds even more problems ... some people will see it, as presented.

leviathan only "revealed", that an ai was created, to solve problems. that this ai is in fact the catalyst, is only revealed in the deus ex machina ending. this ai was there before the first race (leviathans) was gathered. the leviathan became the victims of their own creation.

the charchild fits the description of a deus ex machina. word by word.

[drayfish]

Seival wrote...

Sorry, but haters and dislikers only talk about "ending doesn't fit the story", "plot holes", and "feasibility". Morality and ethics questions were raised only by pro-enders or people who at least accepted the endings as they are...

...Anyway, haters gonna hate, because it's just their subjective point of view. It's really hard to help them to change their minds.

This is patently, ludicrously untrue.  In fact, it is statements like this that are making me more and more certain that you really are just typing random words to get people to react.  No one could genuinely be this obtuse.

I have watched innumerable threads sprawl for many pages discussing the grotesque implications of those endings (one that I was personally involved in ran for over 200 hundred pages).  You have either had such a narrow reading of people's criticisms that you have no capacity to speak about them at all; or you are once again entirely ignoring reality to fit your imagination:

'Pro-enders are the only people who think about morality...'

'Anyone who voted 1-3 in a subjective poll is just a troll and can be ignored...'

'Harry Harrison (a satirical writer who despised authoritarian control over individual rights) would love the ending of ME3 (in which authoritarian control is imposed over individual rights)...'

...And you trying to claim the high ground for deep philosophical thought when your sum total experience of the ending was 'eugenics and totalitarianism are okay cause the pretty pictures told me it was' is absurd.  If you have really numbed yourself to the horror of mutating and dominating others to serve your will, that is not 'philosophy', it is amoral narcissism.

You have found a reading of the game that indulges your every infantile fantasy of domination - but that is not 'deep', it is sad.

Modifié par drayfish, 18 novembre 2012 - 01:58 .

[KingZayd]

magnetite wrote...

my problem is, that for every hint i find, there is another hint, that leads into the opposite direction.

the ending itself is badly executed and feels rushed. the deus ex machina popping up at the end, is the peak of impertinence - it is almost insulting.

the ending is written badly and the final choice is maybe a logical conclusion but that does not alter the fact, that the player has to choose between 4 disgusting atrocities to commit.


another problem is, that some people here on the forum believe, that sacrificing the geth is totally ok to save the galaxy - despite the fact, that they are living, thinking and sentient entitiies. that degrades life as a whole.

ok its just a game - but such trends in thinking are scary.

The ending may appear to be a Deus Ex Machina ending on the surface, but that's only from a literal point of view. The ending is one of the many non-literal points of the story as confirmed by the developers.

As for sacrificing the Geth, well, people just believed whatever the boy said (the child is basically just Harbinger in disguise as revealed by Leviathan). Even without Leviathan, I did pick up that the kid was not working in my best interest and was trying to trick me.

Oh, you're applying indoctrination?

In that case I can see why you like the endings. I would too, but  I feel Bioware's taken too long to make a reveal, and the Leviathan stuff sounds (I haven't bought it) to be a confirmation that they're not going for it.

If it does turn out to be Indoctrination, then I will like the endings, but I won't be happy with the way Bioware's handled it.

[Dr_Extrem]

magnetite wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...
ok .. it is going into THAT direction ... if any of the theories (atm they are only theories) come out to be true, the endings would be great.

sadly we have to take the endings at face value, until something else is official.


if they say that the endings can not be taken literally, it adds even more problems ... some people will see it, as presented.

The developers aren't here to do peoples thinking for them or to decide what is true and what isn't. Anyone thinks that they will just confirm everything is not being rational about this. That would be similar to spoon feeding or patronizing your audience. I mean, like I said, the answers are there, people just have to look for them.

They assumed that people who bought this game could think for themselves or make their own decisions based on the information that was provided. If they developers had to choose what ending they thought was right or the best, then it's no longer a game about choice. It would be merely a game where the player just does whatever the developer says. If they were to say that destroy is "canon", then people would just say "okay guys, they said destroy is the canon ending so everyone just pick that option".

bold assumption .. you give humanity too much credit.

the problem is, that if you look long enough for hints, you find them. its comparable to the "bible code". the more complex a structure gets, the more "hints" to certain circumstances will be found.

it has nothing to do with spoon feeding. most people go with the easiest and most obvious "truth". many will take the ending at face value, because it is the most simple way.

the information given is clear - you choose how the game ends and the epilogue shows you the repercussions. case closed. the flaws and illogical conditions are forgotten after the end.

KingZayd wrote...

Oh, you're applying indoctrination?

In that case I can see why you like the endings. I would too, but I feel Bioware's taken too long to make a reveal, and the Leviathan stuff sounds (I haven't bought it) to be a confirmation that they're not going for it.

If it does turn out to be Indoctrination, then I will like the endings, but I won't be happy with the way Bioware's handled it.

true .. .

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 17 novembre 2012 - 10:13 .

[Bob Garbage]

It'd be even more retarded if the 'truth' about the endings came out almost a year after release, even if it were indoctrination. The game you buy on release should conclude on its own, not through DLC and forum discussions.

[Applepie_Svk]

Bob Garbage wrote...

It'd be even more retarded if the 'truth' about the endings came out almost a year after release, even if it were indoctrination. The game you buy on release should conclude on its own, not through DLC and forum discussions.

That´s way how EA works... more DLCs more money you make...

[Bob Garbage]

There is nothing wrong with DLC, if the quality is there it can be awesome. But it shouldn't be what concludes your story. It should simply continue it. The 'artistic integrity' of Bioware actually killed a chance for DLC to make any sense in ME3. It's all just milking the cow at this point.

[Seival]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Bob Garbage wrote...

It'd be even more retarded if the 'truth' about the endings came out almost a year after release, even if it were indoctrination. The game you buy on release should conclude on its own, not through DLC and forum discussions.

That´s way how EA works... more DLCs more money you make...

This is how the whole game development works...

...And it's really profitable to create and sell large DLCs only if the game was truly successful and people are willing to pay for new parts of content. Otherwise devs will never even bother to support the game, and instead throw resources on creating a new game (or stop developing anything).

Modifié par Seival, 18 novembre 2012 - 01:25 .