79 réponses à ce sujet

[Masha Potato]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

there's no forced buddies in ME.

Garrus

[Emzamination]

hobbit_of_the_shire wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...
I see your point of wanting a more memorable companion/player relation that goes beyond friends or buds, but as I mentioned about Morrigan, that's gonna be difficult. Everyone has different tastes and etc, but I think that what Bioware's been doing so far isn't too wrong. If DA3 combines elements of DA:O and DA2's companions and relationships, I think it will be good.

Everyone's going to have different tastes, yes, and the dialogue options you choose affects greatly the experience.  But because precisely of this, every single companion should have a deep side.  Depending on your behavior, you may get to experience it or not, but all of these characters should be very well thought out.  You should be able to write a book about them before actually putting the character into the game.  I'm trying to my best to forge friend/rival relationships with the DA2 companions, but there really isn't enough text to do that.  Most of them are pretty shallow and most of the deep stuff is my own headcanon.  Felt closer to the DAO companions.  But still, there could be more done.

You just gave me a thought, OP, that forging the most in-depth relationship shouldn't just making a companion an LI.  There is so much focus on the LI relationship, but there are other sisterly/brotherly/parent/child relationships that could be forged.  After all, being with companions for so long (in the case of DA2), if you still have them around, then they should be at many types of relationship with you: a) your mercenary, minimal pointless chit-chat, your co-worker, c) ally because of a common goal, d) LI, e) friend.  Dialogue should be nuanced enough to choose different paths that lead to one or another.  Problem is so far we get the insane party banter (some are great, but lots are sooooo childish).  I'd never see most of them realistically happening.  And then most of the convos just lead to friend/rival and nothing in between.... with much of the deep stuff happening when your companion becomes an LI.

^ Exactly! There are far richer/deeper relationship bonds/relationships than just romance that need to be explored.

[Emzamination]

Pseudocognition wrote...

What kind of connection you make with a character is based entirely on the individual player. The writers write interesting relationship arcs and people do or do not respond to them as the arcs appeal to their interests and preferences. You obviously liked some more than the others, but that doesn't mean the others are somehow more shallow or "petty." And why can't some connections be "shallow"? I'd probably gag if every relationship my PC forms is some sort of sparkly transcendent friendship.

People want to walk away from their games immersed and fulfilled.No one who wanted to fill up would go to a restaurant and order a shallow steak, they'd order the thickest one they could afford, and the same goes for the fans. richer/deeper is always in demand because it's always better.I'd question why you'd want a shallow connection with you're companions, but again... to each his own.

You're the first I've seen on bsn championing for something shallow, normally it's quite the opposite: more in-depth romances, In-depth stories, in depth decisions ect.

[legbamel]

Liara adored me no matter how rude or dismissive I was to her and referred to our nonexistent deep friendship in ME3. That was utterly forced. She should have thought I was a total witch. Since Garrus and I were utterly sympatico, his friendship developed beautifully for me but people who didn't care for him got the same "no Shepard without Vakarian" line that was true for my Sheps.

In DA:O I never trusted Morrigan but she never acted like I was her soul mate, either. I found Alistair to be a much deeper relationship because I sought that with him, even when romancing someone else. But I found some of the characters in DA2 to be just as intricately written, though not the woobie, feelgood sorts of friendships you seem to want.

[Darth Death]

Emzamination wrote...

I speak of a emotional connection that runs far deeper than any trivial romance or passing friendship.

You're on a good start. Carry on. 

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Emzamination wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

What kind of connection you make with a character is based entirely on the individual player. The writers write interesting relationship arcs and people do or do not respond to them as the arcs appeal to their interests and preferences. You obviously liked some more than the others, but that doesn't mean the others are somehow more shallow or "petty." And why can't some connections be "shallow"? I'd probably gag if every relationship my PC forms is some sort of sparkly transcendent friendship.

People want to walk away from their games immersed and fulfilled.No one who wanted to fill up would go to a restaurant and order a shallow steak, they'd order the thickest one they could afford, and the same goes for the fans. richer/deeper is always in demand because it's always better.I'd question why you'd want a shallow connection with you're companions, but again... to each his own.

You're the first I've seen on bsn championing for something shallow, normally it's quite the opposite: more in-depth romances, In-depth stories, in depth decisions ect.

Why can't something be "shallow" and still fulfilling? I thought the relationship one of my Hawkes had with Isabela was quite shallow. F*** buddies is not "deep" in the way you want. But it showed a lot about both of their characters that they could simply be f*** buddies and I valued that part of the game, the peripheral knowledge that although Isabela hasn't got much of a reason to stick around, she still fools around with Hawke on the side for funsies.

All I am championing is good writing, and a character need not have a profoundly deep or meaningful relationship with the PC to be a well written, well-developed character.

What the heck is a "shallow steak?"

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 13 novembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Why can't something be "shallow" and still fulfilling? I thought the relationship one of my Hawkes had with Isabela was quite shallow. F*** buddies is not "deep" in the way you want. But it showed a lot about both of their characters that they could simply be f*** buddies and I valued that part of the game, the peripheral idea that although Isabela hasn't got much of a reason to stick around, she still fools around with Hawke on the side for funsies.

All I am championing is good writing, and a character need not have a profoundly deep or meaningful relationship with the PC to be a well written, well-developed character.

What the heck is a "shallow steak?"

I think some people are laboring under the misapprehension that the worlds must revolve around the PC and every character must worship and adore them.  I kinda disliked ME in that none of Shepard's squadmates thought to question Shepard's behavior, save for the Virmire Survivor on Horizon.  And in speaking of ME, I never thought that the relationships that Shepard had with most of the squadmates were very deep at all.

And a shallow steak just doesn't sound good.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 13 novembre 2012 - 10:32 .

[frostajulie]

Thank you for sharing your opinions they were well thought out and I agree with much of what you said. Your feelings for Morrigan mirrored my own.

But I also experienced the brotherhood bonds with Alistair we both survived a harrowing ordeal. We argued about a lot of stuff but I really felt with many of my characters that we grew closer than lovers (I don't really romance Ali his closet racism bothers me from a metagaming perspective but that's a different topic) I really felt we were the brothers in arms Dire Straits sings about. I almost always sacrifice Isolde or Connor and Alistair hates that but in spite of this we become brothers in arms I have rarely loved a character so strongly.

In DA2 I disagree with your assessment of Bethany. She was my favorite character after Varric. She was so sweet and strong and kind. I loved protecting her from the very start. I rarely play mages because I cannot bear to be without Bethany. My Hawkes Live to protect her. I found the sibling relationships to be far more emotionally rewarding and deeper than any of the romances in DA2. When I do play a mage there is a moment in the game where I say something to Carver where I basically accuse him of hating me and wanting me dead or something and he is shocked by it he says "sister!" and you can hear how hard he is hurting and whishing he could take it back whatever he just said but he doesn't know any other way to talk to you. The anguish was so spot on perfect I burst into tears and forever after decised as a big a douche as Carver was I loved him.

Bioware is a master at creating brothers in arms sisters in arms style relationships its what keeps me coming back to the games even after the ME3 abomination. No other game makes me care about the NPC's the way Bioware can. I find that I love to be emotionally involved in my games.

[iOnlySignIn]

OP please change your title to "Morrigan and Kaidan are my favorite characters". It's misleading.

I mean, I like both of them too, but I wouldn't be so dramatic about it.

[Kail Ashton]

Hmmm the odd moment that i agree with the title of a topic yet completely disagree with fan garbage ideas proposed; clearly bioware needs to make DA3 better the the sum of it's past parts but bioware should never listen to fan sugestions; only the complaints

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Emzamination wrote...

Twisted Path wrote...

I didn't see anything profound or complex about Morrigan. She just seemed like the token evil companion who constantly complained when you didn't murder people and eat their souls for fun and profit.

You're not looking past the surface then. Morrigan's selfishness and 'survival of the fittest' attitude was a product of her mother ingrained into her, that wasn't who she was.Morrigan reveals her confused, sweet & innocent nature subtly through dialogue and her actions.

Morrigan professes her preference at surving alone in the word, yet she later admits how happy she is to have the warden's friendship.

Morrigan constantly brings up how love is for the weak and foolish, yet she later admits to a romanced warden that she can't do without it.

Morrigan says she dislikes human society, yet every major hub you enter with her in the party, she'll express shock and amazement at how people live together in cities.

Morrigan professes her disdain for dog, yet she continues to secretly feed him treats and in the witch hunt scene, we see how happy she is to see him.

She is a complex character because her proclaimed views and her actions are constantly contradicting each other.If she acts evil, it's only because her mother made her so or rather tried to.

You surprise me. That is exactly who my Morrigan is. And that's why l love her character to death.

Yeah, Her mother  spoiled her in a way. I remember Morrigan lamented, how beauty meant nothing and how power is meant everything. Yet I get an approval boost when I give her the golden mirror. Seeing her delighted expression ( she just insulted me at the circle for taking Wynne along ) is a pleasant experience for me. I miss those private chating with her at the camp during night and under the moon light. She used to dance under the moon or shapshifting into wolf and travel in the dark... alone.

Sigh, there is no point dwelling on the past. I just wish, one of the romanceable option in DA 3  will be as alive as Morrigan, If not better.

But given the conditon that the protagonist will most likely be presented and crafted by cinematic BioWare's protagonist instead of my own creation,  it's impossible to feel personal about it.

And given the condition that the dialogues will most likely be spread  way too thin throughout the game ( as shown in DA 2 ) with restricted one dimensional interaction, there really isn't much time to spend with any of the romanceable companions to care enough for them, making it impossible to build any meaningful and engaging relationship.

My expectation is really low at the moment I would not dare to hope for better future romance experience. The very least I could expect is to see how BioWare would execute all the changes and promises that have been laid out so far. If it's turn out to be something really awesome, I may be surprised and delighted and tempted to pre-order it in the end. Who knows.

Edit: Sorry I forget about Bethany. After Carver death, I make my own personal objective to protect her from the templars. I never agree to the idea of going and staying in Kirkwall. Hawke, however was driven by narrative to seek fortune and fame, which ****** me to no end. I never leave her out of my sight. She was alway with my active party. But when she died at the expedition, I reload and leave her behind.  I knew it was a stupid idea. So, when the templars finally took Bethany away ( due to Hawke narratively incompeteness and stupidity of wanting to be a famous person in Kirkwall) I blame the narrative and I have nothing else to play for. DA 2 is over to me in ACT II. There is no point to stay in the game any more. I see no reason why I should be bothered with Mage-Templars wars. I do not favor mage class neither do I favor the heretic fictional religious order like the templars. But since I have given up roleplaying Hawke, I may as well ride along the coaster just to find out what make Hawke such a looser character. In the end, well... the world is already at the brink of war as told by Varric in the opening screen. The story is set in stone. And the game is quite pointless to my RPG experience and adventure. Never played DA 2 again since then.. Not sure what to expect from DA 3 though. Hopeful it won't repeat the same mistake as DA 2?         

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 14 novembre 2012 - 02:41 .

[Swagger7]

Blight Nug wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

What kind of connection you make with a character is based entirely on the individual player. The writers write interesting relationship arcs and people do or do not respond to them as the arcs appeal to their interests and preferences. You obviously liked some more than the others, but that doesn't mean the others are somehow more shallow or "petty." And why can't some connections be "shallow"? I'd probably gag if every relationship my PC forms is some sort of sparkly transcendent friendship.

I agree with this!

We all "fill in the gaps" for these characters based on our own imagination and experience. We also do this to people we meet in real life. 

I cared for Bethany a lot more than I cared for Morrigan. 

^This.  Bethany was my favorite companion in the DA series.  Many mistakes were made in DA2, but the one that bothered me the most was how she gets taken away for 2/3rds of the game.  She's also the reason I've never played through DA2 as a mage character.  (That and Carver's a little ******* I wanted to smack.)

[sylvanaerie]

I kind of get what OP is saying. I felt very close to Alistair in DAO. Even if my male wardens didn't romance him, they were like brothers, though admittedly my females enjoyed a deeper relationship with him than my males.

The rest I had only 'friendship feelings' with. I never bonded with Morrigan as OP did, but I still enjoyed her character. None evoked the same warm fuzzies Alistair does.

In DA2 it was Aveline. I felt closer to that character than Carver or Bethany, though I loved all the characters in that game too (except Anders). Aveline felt more like family than Hawke's family did. Mostly I think because she's encountered so quickly in the game and is with you for the rest of it. I felt for her when she has to kill Wesley (a lot more than I felt for the sibling who dies from the ogre stomp), I laughed and loved her personal quest as she stumbled around, the very capable strong captain acting like a school girl with her first crush. And her dialogue following Leandra's death affected me far stronger than any of the LI's attempts to make you feel better.

Now that I think of it, it could just be the archtype of the "tank" that I really relate to.

[Emzamination]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Why can't something be "shallow" and still fulfilling?

What a contradiction that is. Shallow by its very nature is superficial and lacks anything tangible emotional or otherwise one might indulge.How can you become fulfilled on a connection that's hardly there?

I thought the relationship one of my Hawkes had with Isabela was quite shallow. F*** buddies is not "deep" in the way you want. But it showed a lot about both of their characters that they could simply be f*** buddies and I valued that part of the game, the peripheral knowledge that although Isabela hasn't got much of a reason to stick around, she still fools around with Hawke on the side for funsies.

O'rly? (4:00-4:50) Seems isabela didn't appreciate your shallow sexcapades as much as you think and wanted something deeper.

All I am championing is good writing, and a character need not have a profoundly deep or meaningful relationship with the PC to be a well written, well-developed character.

No you're championing uninteresting and dull characteristics. eraltgay is also a character with shallow relationships. His friends with benefits relationships with risstay & co are about as deep and amusing as a wet piece of piece of tissue paper.

What the heck is a "shallow steak?"

A steak with no depth. what else could it be?

[Emzamination]

RinjiRenee wrote...

I think some people are laboring under the misapprehension that the worlds must revolve around the PC and every character must worship and adore them.

Well when you happen to ID these people, let me know.

[Wulfram]

Emzamination wrote...

O'rly? (4:00-4:50) Seems isabela didn't appreciate your shallow sexcapades as much as you think and wanted something deeper.

IIRC she only sounds regretful if you pursued romance initially.  If you stick to "just for fun" you get the regular dialogue there.

[Emzamination]

frostajulie wrote...

Thank you for sharing your opinions they were well thought out and I agree with much of what you said. Your feelings for Morrigan mirrored my own.

But I also experienced the brotherhood bonds with Alistair we both survived a harrowing ordeal. We argued about a lot of stuff but I really felt with many of my characters that we grew closer than lovers (I don't really romance Ali his closet racism bothers me from a metagaming perspective but that's a different topic) I really felt we were the brothers in arms Dire Straits sings about. I almost always sacrifice Isolde or Connor and Alistair hates that but in spite of this we become brothers in arms I have rarely loved a character so strongly.

In DA2 I disagree with your assessment of Bethany. She was my favorite character after Varric. She was so sweet and strong and kind. I loved protecting her from the very start. I rarely play mages because I cannot bear to be without Bethany. My Hawkes Live to protect her. I found the sibling relationships to be far more emotionally rewarding and deeper than any of the romances in DA2. When I do play a mage there is a moment in the game where I say something to Carver where I basically accuse him of hating me and wanting me dead or something and he is shocked by it he says "sister!" and you can hear how hard he is hurting and whishing he could take it back whatever he just said but he doesn't know any other way to talk to you. The anguish was so spot on perfect I burst into tears and forever after decised as a big a douche as Carver was I loved him.

Bioware is a master at creating brothers in arms sisters in arms style relationships its what keeps me coming back to the games even after the ME3 abomination. No other game makes me care about the NPC's the way Bioware can. I find that I love to be emotionally involved in my games.

Thank you Julie, it's nice to hear that I'm not the only one who is able to look past first impressions and truly get to the root of the character.I also agree with you that bioware is excellent at making strong characters one can connect with.

It's just for me personally, they don't make these too often.Maybe I just have higher demands or maybe I connect with a certain type of character better than others.It's something I'll have to look into & pinpoint.

[Emzamination]

Wulfram wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

O'rly? (4:00-4:50) Seems isabela didn't appreciate your shallow sexcapades as much as you think and wanted something deeper.

IIRC she only sounds regretful if you pursued romance initially.  If you stick to "just for fun" you get the regular dialogue there.

No, you get that either way. If you don't sleep with her at all you get the former dialogue (4:00-4:10)

[Emzamination]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

OP please change your title to "Morrigan and Kaidan are my favorite characters". It's misleading.

I mean, I like both of them too, but I wouldn't be so dramatic about it.

Why? The title is very accurate. Morrigan and the platonic kaidan/femshep relationship are just examples I used to get my point across.I'm sorry if you failed to understand that.As far as how sensationalized yiu believe the title to be, well I like my thread titles to reflect how I feel.

Off note: Isignin you got banned? Lmao!! that's funny.

[Emzamination]

Kail Ashton wrote...

Hmmm the odd moment that i agree with the title of a topic yet completely disagree with fan garbage ideas proposed; clearly bioware needs to make DA3 better the the sum of it's past parts but bioware should never listen to fan sugestions; only the complaints

Bioware has dismissed this claim I suggest you get over it and attempt to contribute your own ideas instead of urinating on everyone elses, Ashton.

[Emzamination]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...


You surprise me. That is exactly who my Morrigan is. And that's why l love her character to death.

Yeah, Her mother  spoiled her in a way. I remember Morrigan lamented, how beauty meant nothing and how power is meant everything. Yet I get an approval boost when I give her the golden mirror. Seeing her delighted expression ( she just insulted me at the circle for taking Wynne along ) is a pleasant experience for me. I miss those private chating with her at the camp during night and under the moon light. She used to dance under the moon or shapshifting into wolf and travel in the dark... alone.

Sigh, there is no point dwelling on the past. I just wish, one of the romanceable option in DA 3  will be as alive as Morrigan, If not better.

But given the conditon that the protagonist will most likely be presented and crafted by cinematic BioWare's protagonist instead of my own creation,  it's impossible to feel personal about it.

And given the condition that the dialogues will most likely be spread  way too thin throughout the game ( as shown in DA 2 ) with restricted one dimensional interaction, there really isn't much time to spend with any of the romanceable companions to care enough for them, making it impossible to build any meaningful and engaging relationship.

My expectation is really low at the moment I would not dare to hope for better future romance experience. The very least I could expect is to see how BioWare would execute all the changes and promises that have been laid out so far. If it's turn out to be something really awesome, I may be surprised and delighted and tempted to pre-order it in the end. Who knows.

Edit: Sorry I forget about Bethany. After Carver death, I make my own personal objective to protect her from the templars. I never agree to the idea of going and staying in Kirkwall. Hawke, however was driven by narrative to seek fortune and fame, which ****** me to no end. I never leave her out of my sight. She was alway with my active party. But when she died at the expedition, I reload and leave her behind.  I knew it was a stupid idea. So, when the templars finally took Bethany away ( due to Hawke narratively incompeteness and stupidity of wanting to be a famous person in Kirkwall) I blame the narrative and I have nothing else to play for. DA 2 is over to me in ACT II. There is no point to stay in the game any more. I see no reason why I should be bothered with Mage-Templars wars. I do not favor mage class neither do I favor the heretic fictional religious order like the templars. But since I have given up roleplaying Hawke, I may as well ride along the coaster just to find out what make Hawke such a looser character. In the end, well... the world is already at the brink of war as told by Varric in the opening screen. The story is set in stone. And the game is quite pointless to my RPG experience and adventure. Never played DA 2 again since then.. Not sure what to expect from DA 3 though. Hopeful it won't repeat the same mistake as DA 2?         

Sadly sacred it seems we're some of the few who can see that not everything is as it appears at first glance.It saddens me to see people so quick to classify a character's nature without taking the time to understand that character.It tends to...O well I better not say.

Anyways I too hope that Da3 introduces as deep a character as morrigan.They've been writing for two years so I have a bit of hope.

[fchopin]

OP, what you are describing is how you felt about Morigan in the game, other people felt the same for Leliana or some other NPC so you are only describing what is your preference and nothing more.

The reason why there is no such feeling for Bethany is Bioware's writers fault as they would not give Hawke the option to be anything else. In fact there is no option for Hawke to be anything other than a bystander in the game when it comes to family or anything important.

If the option to fight was available for Hawke so his or her sister would not be taken to the circle i would have not allowed this. No option for this and no option to rescue the sister was available so we could only play a Hawke who did not care about the sister or any family person.

[Xilizhra]

Meh. I personally enjoy the romance focus; familial relationships are hard to implement, and I consider a lot of the superdeep friendship ideas to be overrated.

[Emzamination]

fchopin wrote...

OP, what you are describing is how you felt about Morigan in the game, other people felt the same for Leliana or some other NPC so you are only describing what is your preference and nothing more.

The reason why there is no such feeling for Bethany is Bioware's writers fault as they would not give Hawke the option to be anything else. In fact there is no option for Hawke to be anything other than a bystander in the game when it comes to family or anything important.

If the option to fight was available for Hawke so his or her sister would not be taken to the circle i would have not allowed this. No option for this and no option to rescue the sister was available so we could only play a Hawke who did not care about the sister or any family person.

I'm describing how I felt to reflect the type of Pc to character bond I hope to see in game.The character is not the point of this thread, it's that feeling that matters.

Modifié par Emzamination, 15 novembre 2012 - 12:50 .