461 réponses à ce sujet

[ABCoLD]

Ciryx wrote...

First off: You're facts are wrong. You confuse mass accelerated projectils (thats your everyday pistol in ME) with a weapon which is familiar to how the mass relays work. The Projectile that destroyed Klendagon was faster then light. Same technology when ships jump from relay to relay. Not just simply a slug that got accelerated by a rail which uses an e-zero core as its powersource. 

Second: No, reapers dont use orbital bombardment. They have airsupport, sure, but no outerspace->groundlevel weapons. Its also stated that their kind of warefare intends to take as many biological matter with them, not to burn it to ash from space.

Third: What works with Thanix Cannons? Bombardment from Space? That never happens. At best you see a Beamweapons fired out of the Clouds, while the Reaperships are decending. Which is at best a couple hundred meters above the ground. 

Fourth: "...liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten suspended in an electromagnetic field..." 
I put the keyword in bold letters. To spell it out: the superheated alloy does never get slowed down before hitting its target. It sounds reasonable that beamweapons burn a path clear for the payload to be delivered. Not that it matters much, since they dont use it from space anyway. But yes, thats one of the reasons why the reapers are so much more advanced and dangerous then any other threat before.

@Costin
Err, no. Pointing at flawed things can be done by anyone, as you can see on every forum. Trying to help to identify the issues and actually help to improve the workprocess cant be done by anyone. For that you need substential background knowledge of how things actually work and are done. 
And thats EXACTLY what constructive criticism is about. http://en.wikipedia....ctive_criticism
Thats also a big reason why Gamedevs dont give a flying f*ck about the opinion of the masses on a micro level. To give constructive criticism you need to be at roughly the same level of skill as the one you are criticising. You dont discuss quantum physics with a rer.nat without being one yourself or being on a equivalent level of skill. Its just all to likely that you make a fool out of yourself.

Imo Smudboy is a critic of the bad kind. I dont value his videos, since they are not constructive enough for my taste, nor do they give a wellrounded review of the game.
If you think hes right, thats good for you, but that never was the issue to begin with.

Well lets go down the list;

One:  The Klendagon Great Rift Valley was in fact caused by a mass accelerator weapon.  This weapon was the one that one shotted the Derelict Reaper.  For more proof of this, read the codex entry called Desperate Measures for a discussion of why no one has FTL projectiles.  (And yes this means that the weapon system that one-shotted the Derelict was in the Thorne system as the projectile was subluminal.)

Two:  The Reapers are known to use a great deal of orbital bombardment in their attacks.  Or at least this can be easily inferred by the planetary descriptions of Etamis and Atahil among others.  It can also be directly related from the description of the planet Chalkos which the Reapers orbitally bombarded this cycle.

Third:  Errr, what? I've just provided concrete examples of Reaper bombardment from space and they use a more advanced form of Thanix cannon.  Also the Migrant Fleet uses Thanix Cannons or more primitive tech and was capable of striking a target from orbit.  The need to repeatedly strike the target implies that they downgraded from a full force blast to something that wouldn't significantly damage the planet if it missed, just as small arms dynamically adjust the size of their projectiles.

Fourth: The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero. The molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with enough force to pierce any known shield or armor.

Compare to: A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion. The slug is designed to squash or shatter on impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal damage.

The Thanix technology is simply an upgrade of conventional ship weaponry and doesn't have a 'beamy' bit that burns through for it or protect it.  Actual directed energy weaponry is incredibly limited (though the Reapers seem to be capable of at least projecting an appreciable beam force through an entire atmosphere (see Rannoch.))  For a more in depth look at directed energy weaponry and the current state of 'beam' technoloy refer to the GARDIAN laser defense system article.

Constructive criticism:  Ray Muzyka provided an impassioned plee to stop bashing the game and provide constructive criticism on it.  You're ironically arguing from a false position of authority by ascribing views you personally hold to someone who has categorically been shown to not hold them.  You might have an opinion, that opinion simply isn't correct.

Competence of Criticism:  smudboy's criticisms have been shown to have value, as they are indepth and meticulous.  They specifically mention points of incongruity or error within the story.  You might not appreciate his tone or his style of delivery, but unless can point for point defend every problem he indicates, and through the use of game material alone show how it is not a problem... then he's providing constructive feedback.  (Or at the very least he's providing feedback that discusses points that need to be addressed.)

In closing, this isn't what this video was about, but I'm glad we could steer it back to a broader discussion on the merits of providing feedback, as that is relevant.  Also, nyah.

[MrStoob]

Thank Spongebob that some of you weren't around in the first half of the 20th century. Wanting someone to just 'go away' (there's only one inference that can be taken from that) because you don't like their ideas is just, well... read the first sentence again.

[Luigitornado]

I find it amusing that he cares this much.

All that time wasted. I'm not going to bother clicking on it.

[dorktainian]

i think he's great. someone still fighting the fight as it were. maybe tho he should stop these vids and make something along the lines of how this broken game got so many perfect 'errhmmmm' scores.

well the 2d sprites are perfect..... but you know what i mean.

also just read ME3 has made it into 'time' magazines top 100 games of all time. how the heck? seriously? i must be missing something if there arnt 100 games better.

[Maxster_]

Ciryx wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

There's no point discussing the mathematics of how mass effect kinetic weapons work in a planet's atmopshere (assuming it has one, like earth) because we already understand how they operate based on scenes and evidence in game.

For example Klendagon, which is purported to have an atmosphere (at least the Wikipedia explains) has a gigantic rift due to a mass accelerator weapon; so it's difficult to believe that slugs simply burn up in the atmopshere unless it was an ungodly gigantic slug that if fired.

Also, weren't Reapers using orbital bombardment, at least on Palaven and Thessia? They might not fire slugs, but they do use mass accelerator technology; the Wikipedia states the Thanix Cannon uses a "...liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero. The
molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of
light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired..."
Why do Thanix cannons work (which essentially just fire a stream of metal particles suspended in an electromagnetic field), but slugs don't?

First off: You're facts are wrong. You confuse mass accelerated projectils (thats your everyday pistol in ME) with a weapon which is familiar to how the mass relays work. The Projectile that destroyed Klendagon was faster then light. Same technology when ships jump from relay to relay. Not just simply a slug that got accelerated by a rail which uses an e-zero core as its powersource. 

Second: No, reapers dont use orbital bombardment. They have airsupport, sure, but no outerspace->groundlevel weapons. Its also stated that their kind of warefare intends to take as many biological matter with them, not to burn it to ash from space.

Third: What works with Thanix Cannons? Bombardment from Space? That never happens. At best you see a Beamweapons fired out of the Clouds, while the Reaperships are decending. Which is at best a couple hundred meters above the ground. 

Fourth: "...liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten suspended in an electromagnetic field..." 
I put the keyword in bold letters. To spell it out: the superheated alloy does never get slowed down before hitting its target. It sounds reasonable that beamweapons burn a path clear for the payload to be delivered. Not that it matters much, since they dont use it from space anyway. But yes, thats one of the reasons why the reapers are so much more advanced and dangerous then any other threat before.

That's laughable.

http://masseffect.wi.../The_Reaper_War
Orbital bombardment
The capital ships bombarded defense installations and
industrial centers, annihilating entire cities with populations in the
low millions, including Adelaide, Hamburg, Al Jubail, and Fort Worth.
Meanwhile, Reaper destroyers descended into the atmosphere to melt roads
and capture population centers with minimal loss of life. This is not
an example of the Reapers being merciful. More likely, they are herding
their prey to make the coming harvest that much easier.

The Reapers countered instantly. Their destroyers performed a jump of
their own to the skies above Palaven, beginning orbital strikes of
turian cities. The turians, forced to defend the planet, found
themselves in a pitched battle far from the relay, from which emerged a
seemingly endless line of Reaper ships. After massive casualties,
Coronati ordered retreat.


Unfortunately, the Reapers' greater numbers allowed them to accept certain losses, so they soon ignored the attacks against them and began orbital bombardment of Thessia. This in turn forced the asari to defend their homeworld with a more traditional stance, facing the Reaper forces directly. As soon as the Reapers landed on Thessia, the harvesting began.

Space Combat: Planetary Assaults
Planetary assaults are complicated if the target is a habitable
garden world; the attackers cannot approach the defenders straight on.
The Citadel Conventions
prohibit the use of large kinetic impactors against habitable worlds.
In a straight-on attack, any misses plough into the planet behind the
defending fleet. If the defenders position themselves between the
attackers and the planet, they can fire at will while the attacker risks
hitting the planet.
Successful assaults on garden worlds hinge upon up-to-date
intelligence. Attackers need to determine where the enemy's defenses
are, so they may approach from an angle that allows them to fire with no
collateral damage. Note this is not necessary for hostile worlds.
Once control of orbit has been lost, defensive garrisons disperse
into the wilderness. An enemy with orbital superiority can bombard
surface forces with impunity. The best option for defenders is to hide
and collect reconnaissance in anticipation of relief forces.
Given the size of a planet, it is impractical to garrison entire
conquered worlds. Fortunately, colonization efforts tend to focus on
building up a dozen or fewer areas. Ground forces occupy the spaceports,
industrial facilities, and major population centers. The wilderness is
patrolled by unmanned aerial vehicles1
and satellite reconnaissance. If a defender unit is spotted, airmobile
rapid deployment units and satellite artillery are used to pin down and
destroy them.


planets

http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Atahil
A typical Venusian "greenhouse" world, Atahil[/b]
is only of note for a few scattered craters. Though flattened by
millions of years of high pressure the marks of orbital bombardment
strikes are unmistakable. It is generally accepted among academics that
whoever hailed from or settled Schwarzschild's second planet, Etamis, must have had outposts on Atahil as well.


http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Joab
Joab[/b] is a two-mooned habitable planet
that is most well known for its mass extinction event. Thousands of
years ago Joab was home to a primate-like spacefaring civilization as
well as abundant flora and fauna. However, this can only be deduced from
time capsules put into the ground well outside habitation centers - all
cities and detectable dwellings were targeted in a massive orbital
bombardment that turned them into vapor. The resulting dust shroud
killed all photosynthetic life and all fauna dependent on it. Today,
humans have recolonized the planet and rapidly introducing their own
species, beginning with cyanobacteria and heterotrophic bacteria, to
bring a suitable level of oxygen and nitrogen for respiration.


http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Bothros
A rock and ice planet, Bothros[/b] is
home to a scientific curiosity. Evidence of a primate-like spacefaring
civilization was found frozen in its equatorial ice, ranging from melted
fragments of metal to preserved remains of the creatures still wearing
suits for extravehicular activity. Further exploration revealed that
their habitation centers were vaporized by orbital bombardments from
railgun-like weapons hitting with a force of approximately 120 kilotons
of TNT. Only those that fled or happened to be away from the habitats
were preserved in the ice, where they died of asphyxiation.
This unknown species did not come from Asteria,
but scientific teams are looking for evidence that they visited there.
It is difficult to believe they would colonize a frozen rock like
Bothros and ignore a lush garden world. Their world of origin is also a
mystery

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Chalkhos
Chalkhos[/b] is notable for being one of the few garden worlds in the Milky Way that is also part of a binary planet system: both it and its heavenly twin Selvos are in a stable orbit with one another in addition to orbiting the star Mil. Chalkhos's greenhouse gases lead to a hotter climate than Earth, and the solar eclipses caused by Selvos, while common, are not frequent enough to be a good solar shade.
This did not prevent a colony from springing up, largely asari and their varying species of mates. It was far from an idyllic settlement--like many Terminus
worlds, it was rife with farmers growing psychoactive substances, armed
gangs, and with genetic engineering that would be illegal in Council space--but aside from the maddening heat and photoperiod, it was quite inhabitable.
The Reapers
turned Chalkhos to rubble. Emergency broadcasts caught in the
light-cone coming from the planet indicate that the Reapers used ground
forces to invade and spent little time harvesting. As they departed, the
Reapers bombarded the planet from orbit either because they needed to
reinforce another front quickly or had gathered the data on genetic
engineering they needed.



That was really pathetic, my friend. All four of your points are false.

[ABCoLD]

Luigitornado wrote...

I find it amusing that he cares this much.

All that time wasted. I'm not going to bother clicking on it.

Yet you bothered to type this up, awesome.  I appreciate your contribution to the topic.

[LinksOcarina]

IReuven wrote...

Being nitpicky and torough should be a basic trait for any reviewer or critic, mostly because the one of the most basic forms of learning is "trial and error" and if error is not seen or somebody does not want to see it... all is for nothing.
Perfection is an admirable goal, it requires thoroughness and patience and acceptance for the fact that what will be created is and always will be flawed. Beacuse sometimes perfection is a flaw at it's very basis.

You really need to have a strong will if You want to take on the impossible goal, and let there always be a person behind You saying two things: 

"Scio me nihil scire"
"Respice te, hominem te memento" .

If not it is going to end horribly for the artist/creator/whoever - or You gonna create utter garbage or You will grow arrogant and greedy. ( or both ).

Actually, nitpicking like this is not a desirable trait for any reviewer, because then no game will ever be good. If litle things pile up and bother you to the point that it impedes your enjoyment of a game, then the judgement passed is reflective on a smaller amount of the games flaws.

Take Mass Effect 1 as an example. Let's face it, the combat was wholly inadequate because of the fact that, even at point blank range with a shotgun, you can miss hitting a target due to the dice-rolling mechanics it followed. Compound this with the uselessness of long range sniping and how poorly set up. the inventory system was, the game falls.

So, how does Nihlus being shot in the back affect this? Or Jenkin's being killed in two seconds by a drone, while Shepard can absorb drone attacks like a Sponge?  The simple truth is that, from a gameplay standpoint, it doesn't. From a story standpoint, it does. So the game conceeds aspects of design to the story.

Now this is nothing new, actually. A lot of games do that, especially modern ones that want to tell a story for you. And yes, you can nitpick them all you like, but in the end of all things, does it really amount to anything? Does it really destroy the experience for you that much, that it bothers you that your pistol you find has unlimited ammunition at the final push in Mass Effect 3, or that Shepard being rebuilt in the beginning of Mass Effect 2 is something you can call bull**** on? 

To game reviewers, the answer is no, because those type of details rarely matter. Now keep in mind that the story still does matter, but these aspects are minute to the overall part of the story; in other words, they are insignificant to whatever the biggest plot hole is. A real reviewer would discern that and make a judgement call based on their subjective feelings, coupled with their own objective tastes. This is why perfection should be impossible (something I have come head to head with my own EIC where I contribute, because I have yet to give a game a score above an 8/10) , but it shouldn't be something that companies should just shoot for through every detail, because that in of itself is impossible because everything is inherently flawed, from books to movies to games. Perfection is basically a myth. 

And before you say I contradict myself, I am saying no game will ever be perfect. That does not mean no game is ever "good." Of course good in this case is somewhat subjective, what makes a game good in the end? Story? Graphics? Gameplay? a mix of the three? We can mix and match our own schemas as critics and fans all we want to cater to whatever game we like. We can cite things as being objective when they are subjective, as flaws when they are game conceits through design, as plot holes when they make sense in an abstract way. We can hate a certain type of RPG over another, which is always bull**** because in the end its still and RPG in a another form. We can rail against the formulaic storylines but praise games that have them still. That is what reviewing is about, making the argument for or against a game, and letting people know what you are getting into, and so few professionals can get that across.

So really, what smudboy is doing is an entertainment  piece wrapped in a intellectual shell. He is basically no better or worse than guys like Angry Joe, where he is there to give his opinions and have people sing praise over said opinions, because he looks smart and has a voice, and basks in the glory of his own ideals without feedback from critics. But when you get right down to it, any major, salient point he has is drowned out by his own ego, in his inability to discern what is important, versus what is not. Even if that is his style of critquing, it is the wrong way to critique something because then you just become a horrific version of John Simon; the kind of man who chastizes actors for how they look over how they performed. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:57 .

[liggy002]

RaenImrahl wrote...

This is the second time that @David7204 has suggested that someone should throw themselves in front of the train. Not coincidentally, it's the second time he's being banned for it, too. So let's all agree to forget the Anna Karenina-esque suggestion and get back on topic... we'll see how long civility lasts.

RI

And that might be a fun thing to do just for the heck of it if I was crazy enough.  The only problem is that it would result in my death.

[Ciryx]

ABCoLD wrote...

Well lets go down the list;

One:  The Klendagon Great Rift Valley was in fact caused by a mass accelerator weapon.  This weapon was the one that one shotted the Derelict Reaper.  For more proof of this, read the codex entry called Desperate Measures for a discussion of why no one has FTL projectiles.  (And yes this means that the weapon system that one-shotted the Derelict was in the Thorne system as the projectile was subluminal.)

Two:  The Reapers are known to use a great deal of orbital bombardment in their attacks.  Or at least this can be easily inferred by the planetary descriptions of Etamis and Atahil among others.  It can also be directly related from the description of the planet Chalkos which the Reapers orbitally bombarded this cycle.

Third:  Errr, what? I've just provided concrete examples of Reaper bombardment from space and they use a more advanced form of Thanix cannon.  Also the Migrant Fleet uses Thanix Cannons or more primitive tech and was capable of striking a target from orbit.  The need to repeatedly strike the target implies that they downgraded from a full force blast to something that wouldn't significantly damage the planet if it missed, just as small arms dynamically adjust the size of their projectiles.

Fourth: The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero. The molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with enough force to pierce any known shield or armor.

Compare to: A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion. The slug is designed to squash or shatter on impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal damage.

The Thanix technology is simply an upgrade of conventional ship weaponry and doesn't have a 'beamy' bit that burns through for it or protect it.  Actual directed energy weaponry is incredibly limited (though the Reapers seem to be capable of at least projecting an appreciable beam force through an entire atmosphere (see Rannoch.))  For a more in depth look at directed energy weaponry and the current state of 'beam' technoloy refer to the GARDIAN laser defense system article.

Constructive criticism:  Ray Muzyka provided an impassioned plee to stop bashing the game and provide constructive criticism on it.  You're ironically arguing from a false position of authority by ascribing views you personally hold to someone who has categorically been shown to not hold them.  You might have an opinion, that opinion simply isn't correct.

Competence of Criticism:  smudboy's criticisms have been shown to have value, as they are indepth and meticulous.  They specifically mention points of incongruity or error within the story.  You might not appreciate his tone or his style of delivery, but unless can point for point defend every problem he indicates, and through the use of game material alone show how it is not a problem... then he's providing constructive feedback.  (Or at the very least he's providing feedback that discusses points that need to be addressed.)

In closing, this isn't what this video was about, but I'm glad we could steer it back to a broader discussion on the merits of providing feedback, as that is relevant.  Also, nyah.

One:

I stand corrected that it wasnt an FTL weapon. I was wrong here and admit that i was missinformed on that matter.

However, it doesnt change the fact that 4kg-5kg slugs would burn in the athmosphere. You dont know how big the projectile used in the Klendagon incident was, nor how fast it was. Both are critical factors to make any assumption regarding the destructive power of the Klendagon incident. It is almost certain though that the power/slug used for that kind of destruction exeeds the ones mounted on dreadnoughts. (its even stated in the wiki of Klendragon that the Weapon to cause this level of destruction must have been "unimaginable") Therefore my point still stands. The united fleet isn't doing any damage to earth.

Second:

"Emergency broadcasts caught in the light-cone coming from the planet indicate that the Reapers used ground forces to invade and spent little time harvesting. As they departed, the Reapers bombarded the planet from orbit either because they needed to reinforce another front quickly or had gathered the data on genetic engineering they needed."

I see no evidence that they use "a great deal of orbital ordanance", in fact I see that this indicates that they are only useing it in emergency/rare situations. 

"Though flattened by millions of years of high pressure the marks of orbital bombardment strikes are unmistakable."

It doesnt even say that it was caused by the reapers. Could have been any race in the previous cycles. Protheans were pretty big on the whole war-thingy too. Save bet that races before their cycle werent that much different.

"While it's now waterless, the shores of former oceans show patterns of cratering too regular to be anything but saturation bombardment by dreadnought-class kinetic weapons, although it is unclear how most of the atmosphere has been lost."

Again, not even a hint that it was caused by reapers. 


Third:

So far you have provided barely anything concrete. 
And no, the migrant fleet proves nothing, exept maybe a lack of understanding/lack of information. That a fleet carries weapons for orbital bombardment makes sense. It makes also sense that you need a) some kind of heatshielded amuntion selfpropelled ordanence or c) a carefully calculated low entry level into the athomsphere of a planet to avoid destroying your ammunition in an otherwise rapid decent. 
In the Case of c): To aid the necaccery computing of such an space-ground strike a leading signal for the computers to log on would be a best case szenario.... wait. Thats exactly what we did as Shepard! Curious.

Fourth:

The beam part was speculation from my side, as is apparent as I said: "it sounds reasonable...". 
Also: calling the Thanix an simple "upgrade" is highly debateable, since: "During the cleanup, the turians secretly salvaged Sovereign's powerful main gun along with much of the weapon's element zero core. Eleven months later, the turians introduced the Thanix, a scaled-down version of the weapon."

Thats not exactly a "simple upgrade" but, alas, thats debatable. I wont nitpick here.

Constructive Criticism:

I honestly dont get why you presume I try to defend or argue for the sake of of Mister Muzyaka. I hold the opinion that constructive criticism should be pro-active, be done in a friendly and highly professional manner. (Again: http://en.wikipedia....ctive_criticism)
So whatever that.... point? whatever it was is about, please elaborate. I dont get it, I am stupid.

Competence of Criticism:

" I hold the opinion that constructive criticism should be pro-active, be done in a friendly and highly professional manner."

"...Trying to help to identify the issues and actually help to improve the workprocess cant be done by anyone. For that you need substential background knowledge of how things actually work and are done. And thats EXACTLY what constructive criticism is about."

And again:

http://en.wikipedia....ctive_criticism Also note which close relation that article has to workspace etc.

... And therefore smudboys videos are not constructive for my taste, and therefore I dont consider them good. 

Modifié par Ciryx, 15 novembre 2012 - 09:05 .

[Ciryx]

Maxster_ wrote...

That was really pathetic, my friend. All four of your points are false.

You argued against one point, not all 4. 

And no, I am not above admitting that my statement was wrong. I wrongly assumed their general approach to harvesting life indicates that they wont use orbital bombardment to oblitarete whole planets. Ehm.... they dont actually do that, do they? As far as I can see they use it to destroy cities, but still deploy groundforces after that. Whatever.

The original point was that the united Fleet isnt doing any dmg to earth with their shots at the reapers as they approach earth.

I am, however, above discussing on a level of name-flinging and calling others "pathetic". Have a nice day.

[Ciryx]

Sion1138 wrote...

Ciryx wrote...

... And therefore smudboys videos are not constructive for my taste, and therefore I dont consider them good. 

Watch the ME1 videos, although they contain the same kind of scrutiny, he is far more lenient as he considered the overall story to be good. Even ME2 received due praise for it's characters. 

He critiques ME3 a lot more because the meat of the story, including the intro and ending, were botched.

The guy is an ass, but his videos are not useless. An aspiring writer would benefit from watching them. He will always have complaints, but if you strive to write with the same degree of scrutiny he exhibits in analysis, you will achieve superior results.

Didnt watch the ME 1 ones, might be worth a shot. Thanks for that. 
And yes, he puts a lot of effort into them and is very meticulous and some of his points, especially on the more obvious plotholes are well constructed. 

In his ME3 videos I think he gets carried away being all negative. Which I dislike since I am no fan of binary black and white thinking. I have the impression that he uses his arguments to polarise, not to be objective.

[Maxster_]

Ciryx wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

That was really pathetic, my friend. All four of your points are false.

You argued against one point, not all 4. 

And no, I am not above admitting that my statement was wrong. I wrongly assumed their general approach to harvesting life indicates that they wont use orbital bombardment to oblitarete whole planets. Ehm.... they dont actually do that, do they? As far as I can see they use it to destroy cities, but still deploy groundforces after that. Whatever.

You are.
You said that i argued against one point, but i argued against 4.

The original point was that the united Fleet isnt doing any dmg to earth with their shots at the reapers as they approach earth.

And i proved that point is wrong.
It is even written in fleet tactics, which you of course ignoring.

Your first point, about Klenagon is false, you have no proof. And there is plenty of proof of the opposite

second - obviously wrong, fact that reapers bombarding planets is stated even in ME1.

third - obviously wrong, reaper main gun is what latter became Thanix Cannons of council races. Thanix Cannon is kineto-thermal weapon, which main damage goes from kinetic impact. Which is also stated in codex, and obvious having basic knowledge of physics. Orbital bombarding is also possible(and effective, given enormous acceleration possible with eezo in ME universe) and is standart reaper tactics. And obvious to anyone with basic knowledge of atmosphere(fluid dynamics) and orbital mechanics.

fourth - obviously rubbish, showing you have no idea of physics, not even basics. it sounds reasonable that beamweapons burn a path clear for the payload to be delivered - was especially funny, given the speed of projectiles.

I am, however, above discussing on a level of name-flinging and calling others "pathetic". Have a nice day.

When someone, defending ME3 garbage writing, resorting to a inventing things to prove their point - i call that pathetic.
Have a nice day.

Modifié par Maxster_, 15 novembre 2012 - 09:37 .

[Ciryx]

Maxster_ wrote...

Ciryx wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

That was really pathetic, my friend. All four of your points are false.

You argued against one point, not all 4. 

And no, I am not above admitting that my statement was wrong. I wrongly assumed their general approach to harvesting life indicates that they wont use orbital bombardment to oblitarete whole planets. Ehm.... they dont actually do that, do they? As far as I can see they use it to destroy cities, but still deploy groundforces after that. Whatever.

You are.
You said that i argued against one point, but i argued against 4.

The original point was that the united Fleet isnt doing any dmg to earth with their shots at the reapers as they approach earth.

And i proved that point is wrong.
It is even written in fleet tactics, which you of course ignoring.

Your first point, about Klenagon is false, you have no proof. And there is plenty of proof of the opposite

second - obviously wrong, fact that reapers bombarding planets is stated even in ME1.

third - obviously wrong, reaper main gun is what latter became Thanix Cannons of council races. Thanix Cannon is kineto-thermal weapon, which main damage goes from kinetic impact. Which is also stated in codex, and obvious having basic knowledge of physics. Orbital bombarding is also possible(and effective, given enormous acceleration possible with eezo in ME universe) and is standart reaper tactics. And obvious to anyone with basic knowledge of atmosphere(fluid dynamics) and orbital mechanics.

fourth - obviously rubbish, showing you have no idea of physics, not even basics. it sounds reasonable that beamweapons burn a path clear for the payload to be delivered - was especially funny, given the speed of projectiles.

I am, however, above discussing on a level of name-flinging and calling others "pathetic". Have a nice day.

When someone, defending ME3 garbage writing, resorting to a inventing things to prove their point - i call that pathetic.
Have a nice day.

That was so... thoughtless.

I will humor you this one time and answer you:

Whats written in fleet tactics is how a fleet usually approaches a hostile planet which it tries to occupy and/or destroy. It goes into great detail how it is difficult if the planet is a habitable garden world etc etc.

Thats all nice and dandy if the united fleet would actually try to attack earth. They dont. They try to save it. From the reapers. Thats what the game is about.

My first point about Klendragon is wrong? How? You say something here without elaborating. You proof nothing, you dont argue at all. In fact I think you are trolling.

Third: It is stated in the codex that the slugs are 4025m/s fast. The rest of you whole "argument" is just... I have a hard time calling it anything but rubbish. I also calculated the impact energy a 4kg-5kg would have if fired at that speed. And its not stated that reapers use these kind of weapons for orbital bombardment. In fact, we dont even know what they are useing. And also: NO the reaper main weapon isnt a Thanix gun. They derived the design of the Thanix from the reaper weapon, its still a far less effective then actual reaper weapons. As evident in the game.

Fourth: You know that ME is Sci-Fi and Ezo doesnt exist? Good. These weapons heavily use ezo, so what i presume these things are capable of has nothing to do with physics. Thats also why I said I presume it, not stating it as a fact. Again: If you claim something is rubbish, please elaborate. 
I think its especially usefull for high-speed weapons to "burn a path" through athmosphere. Even todays experimental rail guns face that problem:

"The rails and projectiles must be built from strong conductive materials; the rails need to survive the violence of an accelerating projectile, and heating due to the large currents and friction involved."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun
http://upload.wikime...usnavy_2008.jpg

[Fixers0]

Does somebody actually wonder what would happen to all space debris from the Reapers and other ships in orbit above earth, or has everybody forgot Eingana?

[Applepie_Svk]

Fixers0 wrote...

Does somebody actually wonder what would happen to all space debris from the Reapers and other ships in orbit above earth, or has everybody forgot Eingana?

Eezo, Eezo everywhere...

[AlexMBrennan]

Please tell me you're not serious.

Whats written in fleet tactics is how a fleet usually approaches a hostile planet which it tries to occupy and/or destroy. It goes into great detail how it is difficult if the planet is a habitable garden world etc etc.

Thats all nice and dandy if the united fleet would actually try to attack earth. They dont. They try to save it. From the reapers. Thats what the game is about.

Indeed. However, saving Earth from the Reapers involves destroying the Reaper fleet that's parked in orbit, which amounts to the same problem: How to take out the garrison fleet without collateral damage.

Fourth: You know that ME is Sci-Fi and Ezo doesnt exist? Good. These weapons heavily use ezo, so what i presume these things are capable of has nothing to do with physics. Thats also why I said I presume it, not stating it as a fact. Again: If you claim something is rubbish, please elaborate.

Incorrect. Eezo is an example of a Minovsky particle - a fictional thingy endowed with fictional properties to get around real physical limitations (unlimited energy, faster than light travel, etc). However, that doesn't mean that anything goes in ME - the laws of physics still apply in any other situation.

[Ciryx]

Fixers0 wrote...

Does somebody actually wonder what would happen to all space debris from the Reapers and other ships in orbit above earth, or has everybody forgot Eingana?

I guess they would need to clean the orbit of that debris.

[Maxster_]

Ciryx wrote...

ABCoLD wrote...

Well lets go down the list;

One:  The Klendagon Great Rift Valley was in fact caused by a mass accelerator weapon.  This weapon was the one that one shotted the Derelict Reaper.  For more proof of this, read the codex entry called Desperate Measures for a discussion of why no one has FTL projectiles.  (And yes this means that the weapon system that one-shotted the Derelict was in the Thorne system as the projectile was subluminal.)

Two:  The Reapers are known to use a great deal of orbital bombardment in their attacks.  Or at least this can be easily inferred by the planetary descriptions of Etamis and Atahil among others.  It can also be directly related from the description of the planet Chalkos which the Reapers orbitally bombarded this cycle.

Third:  Errr, what? I've just provided concrete examples of Reaper bombardment from space and they use a more advanced form of Thanix cannon.  Also the Migrant Fleet uses Thanix Cannons or more primitive tech and was capable of striking a target from orbit.  The need to repeatedly strike the target implies that they downgraded from a full force blast to something that wouldn't significantly damage the planet if it missed, just as small arms dynamically adjust the size of their projectiles.

Fourth: The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero. The molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with enough force to pierce any known shield or armor.

Compare to: A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion. The slug is designed to squash or shatter on impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal damage.

The Thanix technology is simply an upgrade of conventional ship weaponry and doesn't have a 'beamy' bit that burns through for it or protect it.  Actual directed energy weaponry is incredibly limited (though the Reapers seem to be capable of at least projecting an appreciable beam force through an entire atmosphere (see Rannoch.))  For a more in depth look at directed energy weaponry and the current state of 'beam' technoloy refer to the GARDIAN laser defense system article.

Constructive criticism:  Ray Muzyka provided an impassioned plee to stop bashing the game and provide constructive criticism on it.  You're ironically arguing from a false position of authority by ascribing views you personally hold to someone who has categorically been shown to not hold them.  You might have an opinion, that opinion simply isn't correct.

Competence of Criticism:  smudboy's criticisms have been shown to have value, as they are indepth and meticulous.  They specifically mention points of incongruity or error within the story.  You might not appreciate his tone or his style of delivery, but unless can point for point defend every problem he indicates, and through the use of game material alone show how it is not a problem... then he's providing constructive feedback.  (Or at the very least he's providing feedback that discusses points that need to be addressed.)

In closing, this isn't what this video was about, but I'm glad we could steer it back to a broader discussion on the merits of providing feedback, as that is relevant.  Also, nyah.

One:

I stand corrected that it wasnt an FTL weapon. I was wrong here and admit that i was missinformed on that matter.

However, it doesnt change the fact that 4kg-5kg slugs would burn in the athmosphere. You dont know how big the projectile used in the Klendagon incident was, nor how fast it was. Both are critical factors to make any assumption regarding the destructive power of the Klendagon incident. It is almost certain though that the power/slug used for that kind of destruction exeeds the ones mounted on dreadnoughts. (its even stated in the wiki of Klendragon that the Weapon to cause this level of destruction must have been "unimaginable") Therefore my point still stands. The united fleet isn't doing any damage to earth.

Lol.
Poor cosmonauts, they all burned in the atmosphere. Goverment is lying [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

Clearly you have no idea about fluid dynamics. Care to prove your assertion with formulaes, with coefficients from Earth atmosphere?
No? I thought so.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Projectile
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ballistics
http://en.wikipedia....s#Hypervelocity
http://en.wikipedia....rnal_ballistics
http://en.wikipedia....i/Astrodynamics
http://en.wikipedia..../Fluid_dynamics
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Aerodynamics

http://en.wikipedia....tic_bombardment

It seems it is pointless to argue with you, so i leave it here

Second:

"Emergency broadcasts caught in the light-cone coming from the planet indicate that the Reapers used ground forces to invade and spent little time harvesting. As they departed, the Reapers bombarded the planet from orbit either because they needed to reinforce another front quickly or had gathered the data on genetic engineering they needed."

I see no evidence that they use "a great deal of orbital ordanance", in fact I see that this indicates that they are only useing it in emergency/rare situations. 

"Though flattened by millions of years of high pressure the marks of orbital bombardment strikes are unmistakable."

It doesnt even say that it was caused by the reapers. Could have been any race in the previous cycles. Protheans were pretty big on the whole war-thingy too. Save bet that races before their cycle werent that much different.

"While it's now waterless, the shores of former oceans show patterns of cratering too regular to be anything but saturation bombardment by dreadnought-class kinetic weapons, although it is unclear how most of the atmosphere has been lost."

Again, not even a hint that it was caused by reapers. 

Lol
I like how you completely ignoring codex entries. And contradicting yourself. Like reapers not using orbital bombardment(of course it is false and contradicts codex and planet descriptions) - is a proof that orbital bombardment is never used, - and then, giving the facts of orbital bombardment existing in ME, blamed other cycles races for orbital bombardment.
So, orbital bombardment impossibe, because orbital bombardment is possible.
That's just pathetic
And all that to defend undefendable - allied fleets bombarding Earth in cutscenes.

Third:

So far you have provided barely anything concrete. 
And no, the migrant fleet proves nothing, exept maybe a lack of understanding/lack of information. That a fleet carries weapons for orbital bombardment makes sense. It makes also sense that you need a) some kind of heatshielded amuntion selfpropelled ordanence or c) a carefully calculated low entry level into the athomsphere of a planet to avoid destroying your ammunition in an otherwise rapid decent. 
In the Case of c): To aid the necaccery computing of such an space-ground strike a leading signal for the computers to log on would be a best case szenario.... wait. Thats exactly what we did as Shepard! Curious.

Thanix cannon

The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten
suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero. The
molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of
light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with
enough force to pierce any known shield or armor. The gun can fire
reliably every five seconds. The weapon's relatively small size allows
it to be mounted on most fighters or frigates, including the Normandy SR-2, and gives them firepower rivaling cruisers.


Especially funny with .
And given the speed of projectiles, other assertions is also laughable.
And given known meteorite finds, and craters... It is just

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorite
http://en.wikipedia....a_Meteor_Crater
http://en.wikipedia....fe_Creek_crater

[ABCoLD]

 Guys, this is getting seriously off topic here.  Let's move the discussion of the effects of planetary bombardment, intentional or accidental to the thread I created:  Is Sword Fleet blowing up Earth?

[Ciryx]

Maxster_ wrote...
Lol.Poor cosmonauts, they all burned in the atmosphere. Goverment is lying 
Clearly you have no idea about fluid dynamics. Care to prove your assertion with formulaes, with coefficients from Earth atmosphere?No? I thought so.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Aerodynamics
http://en.wikipedia....tic_bombardment
It seems it is pointless to argue with you, so i leave it here

I am pretty sure if you fired your cosmonauts with 4025m/s straight down to earth from orbit they would burn up. That thought alone is so ridiculous... Yeah, lets leave it here.

I wont even reply to rest of your post. Its the same kind of half-assed thoughts. 

Modifié par Ciryx, 15 novembre 2012 - 10:36 .

[Fixers0]

Ciryx wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Does somebody actually wonder what would happen to all space debris from the Reapers and other ships in orbit above earth, or has everybody forgot Eingana?

I guess they would need to clean the orbit of that debris.

Nah, they'd rather just fly away, and let earth die off Element zero poisoning, which is perhaps the smartest thing to do. 

[Ciryx]

Fixers0 wrote...

Ciryx wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Does somebody actually wonder what would happen to all space debris from the Reapers and other ships in orbit above earth, or has everybody forgot Eingana?

I guess they would need to clean the orbit of that debris.

Nah, they'd rather just fly away, and let earth die off Element zero poisoning, which is perhaps the smartest thing to do. 

Maybe Earth would then be the next Thessia? 

[Maxster_]

Ciryx wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Ciryx wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

That was really pathetic, my friend. All four of your points are false.

You argued against one point, not all 4. 

And no, I am not above admitting that my statement was wrong. I wrongly assumed their general approach to harvesting life indicates that they wont use orbital bombardment to oblitarete whole planets. Ehm.... they dont actually do that, do they? As far as I can see they use it to destroy cities, but still deploy groundforces after that. Whatever.

You are.
You said that i argued against one point, but i argued against 4.

The original point was that the united Fleet isnt doing any dmg to earth with their shots at the reapers as they approach earth.

And i proved that point is wrong.
It is even written in fleet tactics, which you of course ignoring.

Your first point, about Klenagon is false, you have no proof. And there is plenty of proof of the opposite

second - obviously wrong, fact that reapers bombarding planets is stated even in ME1.

third - obviously wrong, reaper main gun is what latter became Thanix Cannons of council races. Thanix Cannon is kineto-thermal weapon, which main damage goes from kinetic impact. Which is also stated in codex, and obvious having basic knowledge of physics. Orbital bombarding is also possible(and effective, given enormous acceleration possible with eezo in ME universe) and is standart reaper tactics. And obvious to anyone with basic knowledge of atmosphere(fluid dynamics) and orbital mechanics.

fourth - obviously rubbish, showing you have no idea of physics, not even basics. it sounds reasonable that beamweapons burn a path clear for the payload to be delivered - was especially funny, given the speed of projectiles.

I am, however, above discussing on a level of name-flinging and calling others "pathetic". Have a nice day.

When someone, defending ME3 garbage writing, resorting to a inventing things to prove their point - i call that pathetic.
Have a nice day.

That was so... thoughtless.

I will humor you this one time and answer you:

Whats written in fleet tactics is how a fleet usually approaches a hostile planet which it tries to occupy and/or destroy. It goes into great detail how it is difficult if the planet is a habitable garden world etc etc.

Bwahahaha :lol:
So, if planet is not hostile, it is ok to bombard it with WMD grade weaponry. Riiiight.

Thats all nice and dandy if the united fleet would actually try to attack earth. They dont. They try to save it. From the reapers. Thats what the game is about.

It shows that EAWare does not care for lore and common sense.

My first point about Klendragon is wrong? How? You say something here without elaborating. You proof nothing, you dont argue at all. In fact I think you are trolling.

You already proven wrong and you even admitted it.
You are just inventing things. ME lore have a lot of information about kinetic weapons, and your assertion about Klendagon attacked by an FTL weapon is based on nothing. It even contradicts ME3 codex, but it is obvious you don't care.

Third: It is stated in the codex that the slugs are 4025m/s fast. The rest of you whole "argument" is just... I have a hard time calling it anything but rubbish. I also calculated the impact energy a 4kg-5kg would have if fired at that speed. And its not stated that reapers use these kind of weapons for orbital bombardment. In fact, we dont even know what they are useing. And also: NO the reaper main weapon isnt a Thanix gun. They derived the design of the Thanix from the reaper weapon, its still a far less effective then actual reaper weapons. As evident in the game.

Pathetic.
Yes, we know what reapers use in orbital bombardment. They using their spinal mounted main gun with kinetic impact of approximate 400kt tnt equivalent. This is a WMD. It is shown and written in codex.

And yes, reaper main gun is thanix cannon, which is also stated in codex.


Development
After the Battle of the Citadel in 2183, human
and turian volunteers spent three months clearing the station's orbit
of debris. During the cleanup, the turians secretly salvaged Sovereign's
powerful main gun along with much of the weapon's element zero core.
Eleven months later, the turians introduced the Thanix, a scaled-down
version of the weapon.
Design
The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten
suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero. The
molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of
light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with
enough force to pierce any known shield or armor. The gun can fire
reliably every five seconds. The weapon's relatively small size allows
it to be mounted on most fighters or frigates, including the Normandy SR-2, and gives them firepower rivaling cruisers.


And of course, turian version is less powerful, because of the length of the barrel. It is not spinal mounted, so it is obvious that it is much less powerful.
Also, reapers have twice larger gun(2km) than any ship, and more powerful eezo core, and their estimated kinetic impact is ten times more than of Earth Alliance dreadnought.

You just demonstrated, that you completely ignoring codex and inventing things to prove your point.

Fourth: You know that ME is Sci-Fi and Ezo doesnt exist? Good. These weapons heavily use ezo, so what i presume these things are capable of has nothing to do with physics. Thats also why I said I presume it, not stating it as a fact. Again: If you claim something is rubbish, please elaborate. 
I think its especially usefull for high-speed weapons to "burn a path" through athmosphere. Even todays experimental rail guns face that problem:

"The rails and projectiles must be built from strong conductive materials; the rails need to survive the violence of an accelerating projectile, and heating due to the large currents and friction involved."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun
http://upload.wikime...usnavy_2008.jpg

Eezo is fictional material, allowing for effective acceleration of projectiles. And those projectiles is obeying laws of physics.
It is also stated in codex, in game, and you know, in physics and real life research and experiments.
Yes, it is impossible for human-made projectiles to reach such speeds based on current technology. But, you know, such projectiles exists, science have a lot of evidence, that newton's laws works.

Also shows your ignorance.

it sounds reasonable that beamweapons burn a path clear for the payload to be delivered - that's what i called rubbish. Well, you have no idea about fluid dynamics anyway, so it is pointless.

[Maxster_]

Ciryx wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
Lol.Poor cosmonauts, they all burned in the atmosphere. Goverment is lying 
Clearly you have no idea about fluid dynamics. Care to prove your assertion with formulaes, with coefficients from Earth atmosphere?No? I thought so.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Aerodynamics
http://en.wikipedia....tic_bombardment
It seems it is pointless to argue with you, so i leave it here

I am pretty sure if you fired your cosmonauts with 4025m/s straight down to earth from orbit they would burn up. That thought alone is so ridiculous... Yeah, lets leave it here.

I wont even reply to rest of your post. Its the same kind of half-assed thoughts. 

I like how you ignored metal meteorites shown in museums.
You are so pathetic, ignoring codex, ignoring real life facts, ignoring anything that contradicts your alternative reality.

So, as i thought, you refused to prove your assertions with formulaes. You just stating they are right, because... they are right.
To hell with real life evidence, and physics. Who cares for that obviously false delusions? :lol: