85 réponses à ce sujet

[Face of Evil]

Chris Priestly wrote...

We keep saying this: We will not be discussing story/gameplay/game questions until next year.

If there's no news until the new year, then what the hell am I doing here?!

Oh right. I have nothing better to do. 

[FaWa]

randomcheeses wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

@ randomcheeses

Don't turn this into something it's not please.

Sorry, not going to stop pointing out the horrible implications of removing an entire gender just because you'd rather not think about it.

I really really really don't want to believe that there is sexism here, and I will give Bioware the benefit of the doubt here. But seriously, if this does have gender undertones I will be dissapointed.

[zyntifox]

If you assume that everything that was in DA2 will be in DA3, and everything that was not in DA2 will not be in DA3 you will probably not set yourself up for disappointment.

[Emzamination]

randomcheeses wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

@ randomcheeses

Don't turn this into something it's not please.

Sorry, not going to stop pointing out the horrible implications of removing an entire gender just because you'd rather not think about it.

There is nothing to think about.Gaider said they needed to save on resources and that's that.He would know of such things being a bioware employee and all. How you got gender oppression from that is beyond me.

[Rinji the Bearded]

randomcheeses wrote...

Sorry, not going to stop pointing out the horrible implications of removing an entire gender just because you'd rather not think about it.

Not having enough development time to add female dwarves in DA2 =/= removing an entire gender

You can point out all the implications you want, but we will literally know nothing about the game at all until after the beginning of next year.  You might want to save the vitriol until you have some actual ammunition. 

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 13 novembre 2012 - 07:38 .

[Face of Evil]

randomcheeses wrote...

So you're cutting out an entire gender of a race from the game based on costs. Why don't you cut the dwarven men out? Or would that be offensive to you in a way that keeping dwarven women unseen and almost unspoken about wouldn't be?

Well, it's clearly because they're misogynists and NOT because they didn't have time to develop a new model for dwarven women. That's the only possible rational answer.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

They had an 11 month development cycle.  Having no female dwarves saved them the trouble of designing female dwarves (remember, they changed the art style for DA2 so everything had to be built fresh).

Shut up, Sylvius! Your so-called "logic" has no place within these walls.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 novembre 2012 - 07:39 .

[Zobo]

Emzamination wrote...

randomcheeses wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

@ randomcheeses

Don't turn this into something it's not please.

Sorry, not going to stop pointing out the horrible implications of removing an entire gender just because you'd rather not think about it.

There is nothing to think about.Gaider said they needed to save on resources and that's that.He would know of such things being a bioware employee and all. How you got gender oppression from that is beyond me.

Well, when BW needs to "save on resources" it's females who ALWAYS get the shaft in the end somehow. Dwarves in DA2; Qunari in DAO and DA2; Turians, Krogan, Batarians, Salarians etc. in ME1 and ME2; Drells in ME2 and ME3; Turians, Batarians, Salarians etc. in ME3 without DLCs.
The only kinda exception is Asari, but they don't have genders at all, so they don't count.

[AtreiyaN7]

randomcheeses wrote...

So you're cutting out an entire gender of a race from the game based on costs. Why don't you cut the dwarven men out? Or would that be offensive to you in a way that keeping dwarven women unseen and almost unspoken about wouldn't be?

Or maybe, dwarven women shouldn't suddenly be running around the surface for no reason at all. I can see a few eccentric female dwarven adventurers going topside - maybe even a few ambassadors/traders - but I generally wouldn't expect to see dwarven females comprise the majority of surface-dweling dwarves that I would hypothetically run into on a day-to-day basis in human cities.

I don't consider the demands of people who want to drag their gender-equality issues into everything to be a particularly valid reason for a sudden and random increase in the number of dwarven women on the surface world in DA3 (IF there are even any dwarves at all). There were female dwarves in DA:O - and that's because there was a legitimate reason for it, e.g., visiting Orzammar where one could reasonably expect to see dwarves of both genders.

I'm not sure that dwarves would, in general, care about what's going on in a human-centric conflict in DA3 unless it seems like it will have a direct impact on them.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 13 novembre 2012 - 07:48 .

[Wulfram]

They're female, and they're not (conventionally) sexy. So they're optional. See also Turians, Krogan, Salarians.

[N147]

Beliar86 wrote...

Guess it's another one chalk up to the list of was in DA:O but no longer train.

Joins the list of selectable races, finishing moves, toolset, atheism, and now race/character models that used to exist. Probably others I've forgotten.

You guys want a kickstarter fund or something? Seems your resources are, well, limited to say the least.

I miss finishing moves, I had a mod that increased their frequency......never got old.

[Emzamination]

Zobo wrote...

Well, when BW needs to "save on resources" it's females who ALWAYS get the shaft in the end somehow.

Every situation is different but generally women aren't representatives of the race.

Well, when BW needs to "save on resources" it's females who ALWAYS get the shaft in the end somehow. Dwarves in DA2; Qunari in DAO and DA2; Turians, Krogan, Batarians, Salarians etc. in ME1 and ME2; Drells in ME2 and ME3; Turians, Batarians, Salarians etc. in ME3 without DLCs.
The only kinda exception is Asari, but they don't have genders at all, so they don't count.

My theory is that bodahn and sandal were the reason males were chosen in the end.

Why would qunari women be in ferelden? They are shopkeepers, home makers and artisans in par-vollen.

@Mass effect races

Women were for the majority with the exception of turians/drell and batarians portrayed as the leaders of their races on their respective homeworlds and the men were portrayed as subserviant representatives.So there is no argument there.

[mousestalker]

I'm still not seeing the necessity of an answer. I'd love to have female dwarves in the new game. But if Bioware announced that all of the characters in DA3 were going to be human and that DA4 would be an all dwarf game, I'd be more than content, I'd be gleeful.

They aren't announcing any news until 2013. 2013 will be here in forty eight days. In the meantime, Americans have Thanksgiving and the Western world has Christmas to look forward to. Everyone has the New Years coming up.

Why not wait until after the holidays and then resume begging?

[Wulfram]

Emzamination wrote...

Women were for the majority with the exception of turians/drell and batarians portrayed as the leaders of their races on their respective homeworlds and the men were portrayed as subserviant representatives.So there is no argument there.

The only case where the females hold the political power excuse was used was with the Salarians.  The Krogan females spent all there time failing to breed, apparently.

[Emzamination]

Wulfram wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Women were for the majority with the exception of turians/drell and batarians portrayed as the leaders of their races on their respective homeworlds and the men were portrayed as subserviant representatives.So there is no argument there.

The only case where the females hold the political power excuse was used was with the Salarians.  The Krogan females spent all there time failing to breed, apparently.

Incorrect. In masseffect 2 there is a male krogan up near the shaman proclaiming how proud he is to serve the female clans.

[Atakuma]

Female dwarves weren't in DA2 for the same reason female Kossith weren't. They served no purpose to the story and would have simply been there for the sake of being there. With them being forced to rush the game out, the best option was just not to bother.

[Wulfram]

Emzamination wrote...

Incorrect. In masseffect 2 there is a male krogan up near the shaman proclaiming how proud he is to serve the female clans.

That does not constitute the females being in charge.  They have a certain degree of influence because they can choose who to mate with.  Wrex/Wreav are very much the people in charge.

[syllogi]

I do want reassurance at some point that there will be female dwarves in DA3, even though I understand that it's not coming at this time. It is not only about liking the female dwarves I encountered in DA:O, but also a sign of higher quality and standards if they're a part of the next game.

There was no good reason, other than that the game was rushed, to leave female dwarves out of DA2. Female dwarves were topsiders in DA:O, and from what we've seen of dwarven culture, females may have defined roles in the Orzammar caste system, but those roles don't prevent them from going topside or performing in any way that a male dwarf would. There was a whole dwarven area in Kirkwall. It's ridiculous to say that it wasn't necessary to show female dwarves at all in DA2, just because they weren't part of the main plot. Why have any characters in the game who aren't major and related to the main plot? Why even have the creepy mannequins stationed around Kirkwall, if adding "life" to the city wasn't important?

And yeah, I'd like to think that the DA devs do not have the same sort of mentality as the Mass Effect developer who stated that they didn't bother making female turians because they wouldn't be attractive.

[nightscrawl]

terdferguson123 wrote...

... and the student Dwarf (forget her name), and that is only if you convince her to go to the Circle.

I don't recall that Dagna needed much convincing, she approaches you after all.

[Emzamination]

Wulfram wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Incorrect. In masseffect 2 there is a male krogan up near the shaman proclaiming how proud he is to serve the female clans.

That does not constitute the females being in charge.  They have a certain degree of influence because they can choose who to mate with.  Wrex/Wreav are very much the people in charge.

As varric would say "There are people who warm the throne and those who pull the strings".To say the females have a 'certain degree of influence' is putting it lightly.They run tuchanka and everything on it.Did you not see how quickly wreav with all his bluster and threats put on his leash when in the prescence of eve? He even mentions in his letter to shepard that he can't speak a certain way because eve doesn't like it.

[Wulfram]

Emzamination wrote...

As varric would say "There are people who warm the throne and those who pull the strings".To say the females have a 'certain degree of influence' is putting it lightly.They run tuchanka and everything on it.Did you not see how quickly wreav with all his bluster and threats put on his leash when in the prescence of eve? He even mentions in his letter to shepard that he can't speak a certain way because eve doesn't like it.

Eve is exceptional.  She stands up to the male Krogan to stop them from screwing everything up as they have for the last 1000 years.  If Eve's no longer around, Wreav runs rampant.

[Emzamination]

Wulfram wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

As varric would say "There are people who warm the throne and those who pull the strings".To say the females have a 'certain degree of influence' is putting it lightly.They run tuchanka and everything on it.Did you not see how quickly wreav with all his bluster and threats put on his leash when in the prescence of eve? He even mentions in his letter to shepard that he can't speak a certain way because eve doesn't like it.

Eve is exceptional.  She stands up to the male Krogan to stop them from screwing everything up as they have for the last 1000 years.  If Eve's no longer around, Wreav runs rampant.

Eve is an example. If wrex lives in me2, he tells you that the whole clan unity thing was put together under the orders of the female clan.

[Todd23]

FaWa wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

The answer is here

"My reply is no"



RIP Female Dwarves
Never forget

I got no too.  

[David Gaider]

randomcheeses wrote...
So you're cutting out an entire gender of a race from the game based on costs. Why don't you cut the dwarven men out? Or would that be offensive to you in a way that keeping dwarven women unseen and almost unspoken about wouldn't be?

We didn't "cut" dwarven females in DA2. They'd only be cut if those models already existed, and they did not.

Originally we had planned to use them, but later in development when it turned out that we needed to trim from our list we took a look at the models we'd actually used in the plots-- and we'd barely used dwarven females anywhere, so they were low-hanging fruit. We dropped plans for other models which stung a lot more, let me tell you.

If you want to look on this as a sexism issue, as in female dwarves should automatically be in the game out of some kind of gender equality issue, that's up to you. To us, it was a resources issue and was based on how much we were actually going to use the models in question... and, since we were nowhere near dwarven settlements like Orzammar, the point of having any dwarves was questionable. Indeed, we probably only ended up having male dwarf models at all because of Varric and Bartrand.

If you choose to look on this as me saying we won't have female dwarves in DA3 either, then be my guest. We'll make the models we need for the story, and we're not going to discuss what that story is yet. So fall on the side of pessimism if that's what makes you happy.

[Massakkolia]

Wulfram wrote...

They're female, and they're not (conventionally) sexy. So they're optional. See also Turians, Krogan, Salarians.

This is the harsh, simple truth. No need to beat around the bush.

Sure, it's about resources but whenever something needs to be cut, it's easier to cut from (assumed) minorities than from your traditional target group. Bioware has done some admirable work showing support to different sexualities and creating great female characters but, in the end, they too continue to be plagued by innate sexism of game industry.

Honestly, cutting certain female models (who are not stereotypically sexy) from the budget is such a stupid move. Perhaps some day this industry realizes that young white male gamers alone are not going to provide the required improvement to their balance sheets in the long run.

Emzamination wrote...

Every situation is different but generally women aren't representatives of the race.

The fact that you can say that sentence aloud, see nothing wrong it and defend Bioware's decision based on that premise confirms that sexism is alive and well. 

Needless to say, I really hope dwarves, as a whole race, make a roaring comeback in DA3. Dwarven women are part of Thedas, story reasons or no. 

[DreGregoire]

David Gaider wrote...

 Indeed, we probably only ended up having male dwarf models at all because of Varric and Bartrand.

I can't believe our beloved enchanter wouldn't cause male dwarf models to happen. I am just... I haven't the words to express my dismay.