85 réponses à ce sujet

[thats1evildude]

I'd rather see hunger demons in the game over lady dwarves.

[Rinji the Bearded]

For the record, I didn't read "We cut female dwarves from DA2 because they're ugly" ANYWHERE in what Gaider said.

[David Gaider]

Ria wrote...
This is the harsh, simple truth. No need to beat around the bush.

Sure, it's about resources but whenever something needs to be cut, it's easier to cut from (assumed) minorities than from your traditional target group. Bioware has done some admirable work showing support to different sexualities and creating great female characters but, in the end, they too continue to be plagued by innate sexism of game industry.

Honestly, cutting certain female models (who are not stereotypically sexy) from the budget is such a stupid move. Perhaps some day this industry realizes that young white male gamers alone are not going to provide the required improvement to their balance sheets in the long run.

So, yeah. Not being in Orzammar or any other dwarven settlement has nothing to do with it. We just didn't make female dwarves because we're innately sexist and think they're ugly.

Sigh.

The argument itself is fine, and there's certainly a lot of reasons to keep an eye out for sexism-- even from BioWare. To use it in this case, because we didn't need female dwarves for the DA2 story and you happen to like them, is stretching it a bit thin. Why not just say "I liked female dwarves in DAO and would like to see then in a game again". Would that be so terrible?

Modifié par David Gaider, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:10 .

[mousestalker]

I liked female dwarves in DAO and would like to see them in a game again. <3

At the risk of being a wild eyed dreamer, I really don't see any necessity for having humans in a game.

Modifié par mousestalker, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:12 .

[Todd23]

mousestalker wrote...

I liked female dwarves in DAO and would like to see them in a game again. <3

At the risk of being a wild eyed dreamer, I really don't see any necessity for having humans in a game.

<_<...  That is so terrible!

[Fredward]

Yah know when you compare dev posts from about 3 years back, like just after Origins got released, to now... Man. The BSN is like this giant hammer of cynicism and bitterness. Heck it ain't even aimed at me and I already feel more disgusted by humanity.


Also I'm curious so to the crazy people on here; if Bioware only had enough time/money to make ONE model would it have been "better" to cut the male dwarves? Or the male Qunari? Would that have been less sexist?

[Emzamination]

Ria wrote...

The fact that you can say that sentence aloud, see nothing wrong it and defend Bioware's decision based on that premise confirms that sexism is alive and well.

Wait...

All I'm saying is usually it's the men who are the representatives and protectors of the herd, while women and children tend to be home-makers and have more economically inclined jobs.I'm not saying this is a woman's defined place, I'm just saying this is genrally the way things are.

[KcK__]

I'dont really write in these forums very often, I just read them for the info and other stuff. And when I occasionally write I try to be polite and keep it short. In this case I will just try to keep it short. All those people who imply that Dragon Age team is somehow sexist because there were no female dwarves in DA 2 please, take your heads out of your asses. You're acting stupid.

I raise my hot for you mr. Gaider for being so permissive with these nutcases...

[Shevy]

I liked female dwarves in Origins and would really love to see them coming back in DA III. I hope that they'll find a important enough role in the story to get implemented. While I would have loved to see some of them in the Carta in DA II, Legacy could have been a good opportunity to do that, I can understand that designing a new model just for one or two not mandatory appearances would have cost too much time, at least if you want to do it right.

The same goes with female Qunari. Seeing more character models, through adding more races or providing different body types for one race, add to the credtibility of the world thus making the RPG more enjoyable.

Modifié par Shevy_001, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:24 .

[Zobo]

Emzamination wrote...

Zobo wrote...

Well, when BW needs to "save on resources" it's females who ALWAYS get the shaft in the end somehow. Dwarves in DA2; Qunari in DAO and DA2; Turians, Krogan, Batarians, Salarians etc. in ME1 and ME2; Drells in ME2 and ME3; Turians, Batarians, Salarians etc. in ME3 without DLCs.
The only kinda exception is Asari, but they don't have genders at all, so they don't count.

My theory is that bodahn and sandal were the reason males were chosen in the end.

Why would qunari women be in ferelden? They are shopkeepers, home makers and artisans in par-vollen.

@Mass effect races

Women were for the majority with the exception of turians/drell and batarians portrayed as the leaders of their races on their respective homeworlds and the men were portrayed as subserviant representatives.So there is no argument there.

Well, I think I can kinda sorta agree on DA reasoning with Qunari having an in-lore reason and DA2 being terribly rushed model-wise in general, not only with female Dwarves. Yet the way ME handled female aliens was just ridiculous, no excuses. Also the way both series belongs to BW doesn't help the impression even so we all know there are two different teams involved.

Ria wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Every situation is different but generally women aren't representatives of the race.

The fact that you can say that sentence aloud, see nothing wrong it and defend Bioware's decision based on that premise confirms that sexism is alive and well.

Indeed.

[Face of Evil]

You humans are all racist!

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:30 .

[syllogi]

There's a lot of the usual "this issue isn't something *I* personally care about, so I'm going to scoff at the people who do feel it important" in this thread. I mean, sure, no one is entitled to the features they care about, in any game.

But I think the general theme of "please give us back things you took away in DA2" is perfectly valid, whether or not the thing being asked for is something that each and every poster thought was important.

I do, personally, think that the inclusion of female dwarves is more important than shriek models (really didn't understand the lack, especially on Sundermount), qunari females (at least this made sense from a lore pov that they would not be in Kirkwall) or even cat models (people who know me know my position that cats are serious business), so I really hope that they will be included, even if they're not party members. The female dwarf NPCs in DA:O were pretty cool, even those who weren't part of the main plot.

[DaringMoosejaw]

Less character models is cheaper, and men have been typically seen as the 'default'. See it as sexist all you like, but the genders are different and men are more likely to fulfill certain roles while women are more likely to fulfill other ones. Faceless, easily killed mooks? Typically men. Evil villain types? Typically men. Pathetic comedy relief characters? Typically men. Men typically get the good roles as well, but it does go both ways. I suppose it's nice to see random people diversified a bit, but it's not some conspiracy by the patriarchy that men are seen as the default.

[DreGregoire]

Isn't it more than just about creating a simple model? Aren't adjustments to animations necessary for a new model? Voice? Clothing? Hairstyles etc.? Even if hairstyles are already in the game they would require adjustment, I think.

I mean I can only think of one instance in DA2 where a female dwarf could have been used as a spouse and mother of the dwarves of a quest. I think it's obvious what the solution was for that particular scene.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:39 .

[RandomSyhn]

The one issue with so many models is that they need to be
a) Modeled
rigged
c) animated
All of which are time consuming, so unless your going to be meeting one on every corner, or slaying them in droves, finacially it makes sense that some of them are not going to be made. It's unfortunate, I'd love to see female dwarves in DAIII, I really want to see female Qunari in DAIII, and especially love to see Griffins as a whole in DAIII, but it depends on the practicality of it.

Modifié par RandomSyhn, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:40 .

[AlexJK]

syllogi wrote...

But I think the general theme of "please give us back things you took away in DA2" is perfectly valid, whether or not the thing being asked for is something that each and every poster thought was important.

Bioware didn't "take things away" in DA2 though. The argument that something should have been in DA2 just because it was in Origins (eg. female dwarves, for example) is not a valid one. By that logic, the two games should have been identical.

[Face of Evil]

AlexJK wrote...

Bioware didn't "take things away" in DA2 though. The argument that something should have been in DA2 just because it was in Origins (eg. female dwarves, for example) is not a valid one. By that logic, the two games should have been identical.

Does anyone want to read my DA2 fan fiction where the Warder teams up with Alisdair, Beliana and Korrigan to defeat the darkspoon and end the Smite?

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:47 .

[Masha Potato]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Less character models is cheaper, and men have been typically seen as the 'default'. See it as sexist all you like, but the genders are different and men are more likely to fulfill certain roles while women are more likely to fulfill other ones. Faceless, easily killed mooks? Typically men. Evil villain types? Typically men. Pathetic comedy relief characters? Typically men. Men typically get the good roles as well, but it does go both ways. I suppose it's nice to see random people diversified a bit, but it's not some conspiracy by the patriarchy that men are seen as the default.

and the only typically women are the hot love interest i guess?

[syllogi]

AlexJK wrote...

syllogi wrote...

But I think the general theme of "please give us back things you took away in DA2" is perfectly valid, whether or not the thing being asked for is something that each and every poster thought was important.

Bioware didn't "take things away" in DA2 though. The argument that something should have been in DA2 just because it was in Origins (eg. female dwarves, for example) is not a valid one. By that logic, the two games should have been identical.

Yes, Bioware did take things away, like female dwarves, shrieks, and cats, as I mentioned in my post, whether you think they're important or not.  Saying that things were taken away in the second game does not mean someone wanted an identical game.  

I really wonder sometimes if people who get ruffled at the thought of *any* feedback at all that is not completely positive realize how unproductive that attitude is.

[Emzamination]

Zobo wrote...

Ria wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Every situation is different but generally women aren't representatives of the race.

The fact that you can say that sentence aloud, see nothing wrong it and defend Bioware's decision based on that premise confirms that sexism is alive and well.

Indeed.

Funny, I didn't realize I could be sexist against my own gender.Anyways I made my statement, explained why I made said statement and I'm sticking to it. If you want to frolic in some pipe dream ideal where women are regarded as equals across the majority of societys past & present, that's your business, but I'm a realist and I won't spout lies for the sake of someone's ego.

I can see in this thread that people are too sensitive and can't handle the truth of things so I'm leaving this thread and you all to your pipe dreams & fantasys and going to a thread where I don't have to be insulted and classified just for being honest.

I say good day!

[Harle Cerulean]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Less character models is cheaper, and men have been typically seen as the 'default'. See it as sexist all you like, but the genders are different and men are more likely to fulfill certain roles while women are more likely to fulfill other ones. Faceless, easily killed mooks? Typically men. Evil villain types? Typically men. Pathetic comedy relief characters? Typically men. Men typically get the good roles as well, but it does go both ways. I suppose it's nice to see random people diversified a bit, but it's not some conspiracy by the patriarchy that men are seen as the default.

Okay, no.  Why do you think men are seen as the default?  It is 100% an effect of the sexism inherent in our culture. While Bioware's particular motives for not including female dwarves in DA2 may not be directly an effect of sexism (though why we have enough important male dwarves to require their models be included, and no female dwarves important enough their models were necessary is another question, frankly), yes, the idea of 'male is default' is in fact a result of the partiarchy.  Full stop.

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:52 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Filament wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Funny, I didn't realize I could be sexist against my own gender.

You're right, that is pretty funny.

You may not have realized it, but yes, women can be sexist against women!  The more you know.

[Nerevar-as]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Yah know when you compare dev posts from about 3 years back, like just after Origins got released, to now... Man. The BSN is like this giant hammer of cynicism and bitterness. Heck it ain't even aimed at me and I already feel more disgusted by humanity.


Also I'm curious so to the crazy people on here; if Bioware only had enough time/money to make ONE model would it have been "better" to cut the male dwarves? Or the male Qunari? Would that have been less sexist?

DA2 happened. Then ME3 and SWTOR for others too. Trust in BW capabilities is much lower than after Origins. The little we know about DA3 isn´t reassuring for many of us so far.

On topic, it´s not like FD were the only or even more noticiable of the cut corners of DA2, so I think this is a bit exaggerated.