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[Wulfram]

Lots of people talk about how great Femshep is.  At least, before ME3 they did.

Modifié par Wulfram, 14 novembre 2012 - 05:01 .

[FINE HERE]

This will be a long rant. Sorry in advance.

I DESPISE the dialog wheel. I hated it, the voiced protagonist and the paraphrasing in appeared with completely. The wheel makes role-playing annoying for various reasons.

First, it has all the responses set up by tone/intent so that you always know what each line is meant to say. I don't even have to read the paraphrasing or pay attention to the conversation Hawke is having with the NPC to know how the line I pick will effect the conversation. After a while, I just gave up on caring about the dialog and skipped every line until a prompt. Then I chose the tone my character was already labeled so the auto-dialog wouldn't sound out-of-place. And continued skipping.

Second, the investigation 'info dump' as others have called it. It felt like it wasn't connected to the conversation at all. There was one conversation Hawke was in, I'm not sure which, but once the prompt for me to choose Hawke's response appeared, I did the investigation questions first, then proceeded to respond. And Hawke did. But it ignored the fact she asked several questions and sounded as if she was simply responding to the NPC's statement. Something like this:
NPC- The viscount is a fool. I'd be surprised if he could find his way out of a paper bag on his own.
Hawke- {Investigate}You don't like the viscount?
NPC- Not like is... Well, no, it's the truth. He's spineless and boring. He could make anyone listening to him fall asleep within seconds.
Hawke- {autodialog}Most nobles seem to respect him, though.
NPC- That's because they're just as spineless.
Hawke- {Investigate}Did something happen in particular?
NPC- Several somethings. (goes into detail about three events, so a minute or two long convo)
Hawke- {Investigate}And his son? Do you think he could do better?
NPC- His son would do a thousands times better. But I doubt he'd be able to with that father of his.
Hawke- {response} The viscount probably has people to help him escape those tricky paper bags.

It actually doesn't seem that weird reading it, but in the game, it was offputting. Especially since the investigation options don't have the personality tone applied to them. That was why the voiced protagonist was annoying, and alongside the wheel's structure and response choices, charater-breaking.

Third, the voiced protagonist tones. Sure, this could be counted as a problem with the voiced protagonist, but it's also a problem with the wheel. By having only three tones for responses(Diplmatic/Good, Snarky/Charismatic, Agressive/Jerk), it makes all conversations limited, and it makes roleplaying even harder. I used this as an example elsewhere, but here it is again:
An NPC asks the PC for help finding their lost dog.
DA:O would have a list showing:
1. Of course I will help.
2. I'm sorry, but I am busy at the moment.
3. I'm not here to find your lost dog.
4. Make it worth my time, and maybe I will find him.
5. I suppose I could keep an eye out.

DA2 had a dialog wheel showing:
{Investigate:} What does your dog look like? Where did you see him last? What does the dog answer to? etc.
{Diplomatic: I will help.} Oh, I'm so sorry. Of course I will help!
{Snarky: What did you do?} You must have done something terrible to make him run for freedom like that. Poor little doggie.
{Agressive: No.} Do I look like a dog catcher? F*ck off.

If I was playing a diplomatic character but I didn't want to catch the dog, I could respond in DA:O without sounding evil or cruel, because there was no tone or icon to make it so. DA2's circle wheel has the 'agressive' icon over the only choice that says 'I don't want to help you' or 'I disagree with your opinion.' The labels make it seem that having a difference in opinion in certain conversations is wrong. Because DA2 also had prompts that allowed the player to state an opinion, but only sometimes.
Why can't I call Anders a monster after learning about Justice without sounding like a jerk? Why does sympathy have to be diplomatic only, and not snarky or agressive? The voiced protagonist limits this, sure, but so does labeling responses.

Fourth, the dialog wheel makes it feel as if DA is turning into ME. This may be just the vibe I get from it. The human only protagonist with a set voice, and only three personalities to choose from. Auto-dialog and paraphrasing. Dialog wheel. Sleeker modern UI instead of the 'parchment' UI of DA:O. (I'm hoping that DA3:I has a return to the medieval feel, though it wouldn't be gamebreaking if it doesn't.) I don't want DA to become an action rpg any more than it already is. The wheel was made popular in ME, it's iconic in ME and, IMO, that's where it should stay.

I should stop here, this is getting too long... Sorry...

[b09boy]

Wulfram wrote...

Lots of people talk about how great Femshep is.  At least, before ME3 they did.

The character, though, or the actress?  We could get Brian Drummond to voice a character and they'd be a highlight by default, but that doesn't mean the character itself is popular.

[Wulfram]

b09boy wrote...

The character, though, or the actress?  We could get Brian Drummond to voice a character and they'd be a highlight by default, but that doesn't mean the character itself is popular.

Well, the ME2 Femshep fan thread has 42698 replies.

[David Gaider]

FINE HERE wrote...
I used this as an example elsewhere, but here it is again:
An NPC asks the PC for help finding their lost dog.
DA:O would have a list showing:
1. Of course I will help.
2. I'm sorry, but I am busy at the moment.
3. I'm not here to find your lost dog.
4. Make it worth my time, and maybe I will find him.
5. I suppose I could keep an eye out.

DA2 had a dialog wheel showing:
{Investigate:} What does your dog look like? Where did you see him last? What does the dog answer to? etc.
{Diplomatic: I will help.} Oh, I'm so sorry. Of course I will help!
{Snarky: What did you do?} You must have done something terrible to make him run for freedom like that. Poor little doggie.
{Agressive: No.} Do I look like a dog catcher? F*ck off.

This one part of your post I will pick out, as it establishes a false equivalency.

The DAO list you provide (which we would rarely actually do that way-- you provide 5 options, of which only 3 are actually very different from each other) is not the equivalent of the tone wheel example you provide from DA2. It would be the equivalent of the choice wheel. DAO had its equivalent of the tone wheel, which had the exact same tones and was also about flavor choices... so putting up the DA2 tone wheel and saying it didn't offer the same choices as the choice wheel equivalent is bad form, considering it was never designed to do that.

It's like people who argue that the change in elven appearances between games was bad, and as "proof" they put up a picture of DA2 Orana. Clever, but clearly biased.

It's this kind of argument which just appears to underline that people sometimes simply see what they want to see. Not that a smarter argument would make us get rid of the dialogue wheel anyhow, but undermining your own point is really unnecessary.

[Taint Master]

Dr. Gaider laying down the law!

Since he already said it's not changing (several times) why are people still debating this anyway?

[David Gaider]

Taint Master wrote...
Dr. Gaider laying down the law!

I am not a Doctor. Please stop calling me that.

[Taint Master]

Aww...

But "Dr. Gaider" sounds so badass.

[Nashimura]

Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk were the doctors, Its Ninja Gaider.

[Fiery Phoenix]

"Dr. Gaider" really does sound badass.

[Wulfram]

David Gaider wrote...

The DAO list you provide (which we would rarely actually do that way-- you provide 5 options, of which only 3 are actually very different from each other) is not the equivalent of the tone wheel example you provide from DA2. It would be the equivalent of the choice wheel. DAO had its equivalent of the tone wheel, which had the exact same tones and was also about flavor choices... so putting up the DA2 tone wheel and saying it didn't offer the same choices as the choice wheel equivalent is bad form, considering it was never designed to do that.

There were at least a couple of occasions when there were toned Yes/Maybe/No choices.  For example, when Anders asks you for a favour in the first conversation with him. 


(sorry for horrible quality, it's from youtube)

I guess they weren't the actual final decision, which is why they didn't get the choice wheel, but they were still quite annoying for me.  Particularly since the resulting joke is not one of Hawke's better ones.

Modifié par Wulfram, 14 novembre 2012 - 07:27 .

[Vanilka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Dragon Age 2 simply had a more focused authored narrative.  DAO was a group of several mostly-unrelated theme parks that were held together plot-wise by the threat of the Blight.  In the authored narrative, the only reason the Warden is even in any of these places is to unite Ferelden to respond to the Blight.  How they deal with each situation, and as such the dialogue options involved in expressing those methods to others, vary from place to place more.  DA2 was about the escalating conflict between mages and Templars in Kirkwall - broadly speaking - as such Hawke's position on the matter was important.

"But I didn't care" you say, well, that's fair.  But it was also possible to not care about Ferelden or the Blight, and think that the country wasn't particularly great or worth saving, or perhaps got what it deserved.  However, in both games you either buy into the authored narrative and the consequences that go with it or you don't.  It is safe to assume that fewer people bought into Dragon Age 2's narrative because they were prejudiced against it early for any number of reasons, hardly the least of those being the voiced protagonist itself.  That is in addition to anyone who went in with an optimistic or open mind and still found it wasn't their cup of tea.  It happens.

I'm not sure what most of this has to do with anything what I have said.

Anyway, I must agree with Wulfram in one of his previous posts. Most of the game has nothing to do with "focused authored narrative". I'm not saying that it doesn't occur; just that there's pretty much nothing going on a big part of the game. However, as you say, the game is about the escalating conflict between mages and templars in the end and thus it's understandable the story heads that way. But we're pushed into choosing the bad and the worse in moments that are completely unrelated to all that. The Dalish I mentioned. The conflict with the Qunari. I see no reason to pick between saving a companion's life or doing the right thing, as we have to with Isabela. It's not as if picking one or the other was really necessary in this case. What about Merrill's mirror? You actually still get the quest, despite refusing to help her. There's a difference between " focused authored narrative" and a bunch of "railroaded" events, as people seem to like to call it here. It makes sense that they just wanted to tell a story. But at some points the lack of choices simply feels unecessary.

However, I don't see a reason to talk about this here. You claim that what I say has nothing to do with the wheel and then stray even further yourself.

At no point I said I didn't care. You're ripping the words out of context. I said I don't care about who claims what about the game. That's all I said.

Anyway, I agree in that it's about whether you "buy into" it or not. I have problem with neither of those games in this aspect, more or less. It's the lack of choices and a few other things that I find frustrating about DAII. I started to play looking forward to the game and was mainly disappointed by the protagonist and the dialogue system. Of course, I could go on about the million other little things that annoy me, but it's not that I hate the game. Just some things about it frustrate the hell out of me.

Again, unnecessary tangent.

In cases where individual quests have only two options, as opposed to say Connor or the Werewolves, that's a writing matter as well.  You could very easily have used the dialogue wheel in Origins and nothing else would have had to change.

I can't argue about that. It is about the writing.

As for the wheel, eh, sure, as long as there are no unfathomable paraphrases included.

In short, often people with complaints aren't actually complaining about what they think they are.  I imagine it makes compiling feedback harder to do.  Discussions about the wheel are the biggest culprit, as they're usually genuinely complaints about paraphrases or the voiced protagonist or even - as in this post as well - about the lack of non-combat skills in the game.

I mentioned these things because I felt they are relevant. I might be wrong. I stand by my post though. I think that if we strip the dialogue wheel of any connections to anything else, then I guess I truly can't complain about it. Who wouldn't like to spend their time pushing bare buttons and discussing them afterwards.

[Caiden012]

I don't like the wheel but I know that its going to be in the game, so look to SWTOR. I like its use of the wheel. The only choices that had any symbols were dark and light side ones. I think symbols should be used when the character has to make a tough choice. Not for every speech option. I also think the paraphrasing went well. I didn't encounter too many situations that made me think "Thats not what I wanted to say."

I also like the idea of adding some wheel choices that cause actions not speech. Although it used the tree, this did happen a few times in KOTOR. I remember being able to choose a (Force choke) option once in the tree and I thought it was pretty cool.

Modifié par Caiden012, 14 novembre 2012 - 09:24 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

This one part of your post I will pick out, as it establishes a false equivalency.

The DAO list you provide (which we would rarely actually do that way-- you provide 5 options, of which only 3 are actually very different from each other) is not the equivalent of the tone wheel example you provide from DA2. It would be the equivalent of the choice wheel. DAO had its equivalent of the tone wheel, which had the exact same tones and was also about flavor choices... so putting up the DA2 tone wheel and saying it didn't offer the same choices as the choice wheel equivalent is bad form, considering it was never designed to do that.

There are those of us who would argue that DAO's tone wheel didn't actually have fixed tones, thus demonstrating how different DA2 was.

However, DA2's voice renders that moot, as the voice fixes the tone regardless of whether the wheel does.  So my complaint on this issue arises not from the wheel, but from the voice.

Wulfram wrote...

The existence of options like this is why I don't dislike the wheel.  To me, "What's the favour?" looks like an investigate option.  Hawke will ask a question to ascertain what Anders is asking.  That it will (apparently, based on its position on the wheel) advance the conversation (unlike an actual investigate option) means that the position on the wheel isn't being rigidly enforced, and thus I can safely ignore it.

This is also why I ignored the tone icons, as I didn't understand them.

[The_11thDoctor]

I dont see any problem with the system. I just want more options every once in a while with a Wild card option where you have no idea on the outcome with the personality, good or bad choices.

[David Gaider]

EntropicAngel wrote...
But DA:O was mostly "choice wheel" equivalents, while DA ][ is mostly, overwhelmingly, tone wheels.

Ummm... no. Having written a great many of the DAO player response hubs, I can safely say that is not so.

At least, it felt that way.

Yes, that's what I'm getting here as well.

[AlexanderCousland]

David Gaider wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
But DA:O was mostly "choice wheel" equivalents, while DA ][ is mostly, overwhelmingly, tone wheels.

Ummm... no. Having written a great many of the DAO player response hubs, I can safely say that is not so.

At least, it felt that way.

Yes, that's what I'm getting here as well.

Maybe it just felt that way because of the dialouge origins player's had to go through to resolve certain quests, Bercillian Forest & Zathrian, Isolde & Conor. The Warden had to give a certain set of responses in order to reach a  "good" outcome. In DA2 the choices were all laid out in front of you, There was no Dialouge Option that lead to a choice the PC could "discover" if you will. Maybe that's the difference, regardless of how much the two systems relate. Just Sayin.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 15 novembre 2012 - 02:31 .

[Sidney]

Face of Evil wrote...

As has been stated before and will be stated many times after — since these threads pop up with the regularity of cancerous lumps — there were just as many dialogue options in DA2 as there were in DAO.

In DAO, most responses were seperated into three categories: Diplomatic, Snarky and Aggressive. There were also Flirty responses and Investigative queries. It's the same system, it's just been simplified with the use of icons. Any further nuance was imagined on your part, likely because you yourself had to read the lines and therefore you could ascribe whatever tone you wanted.

Even I could tell that there's very little difference between my "Diplomatic" Warden and my "Diplomatic" Hawke.

Well and you can imagine any tone you want the problem is if you pick dialog option 1 in DAO and bioware has coded the NPC's to respond to it like it is "Diplomatic" no matter how you read it.  I know I've seen people say "Well people misunderstand me" but sadly games don't really work that way because then any bad code is just "real life" where things and people don't work the right way.

In the end, all dialog options are are tonal selections in a CRPG game. I never wanted to say what I "said" in DAO anymore than I wanted to say exacty what I said in DA2. All I am selecting is what "type" of repsonse I want to make.

I'm always shocked the "I want immersion" types don't just ask for ONLY the tonal indicators that way they can imagine whatever dialog they want to have in their junior thespian heads and be freed from the tyrranny of the the Bioware writers.

[David Gaider]

FreshIstay wrote...
Maybe it just felt that way because of the Dialouge Origins player's had to go through to resolve certain quests, Bercillian Forest & Zathrian, Isolde & Conor. The Warden had to give a certain set of responses in order to reach a  "good" outcome. In DA2 the choices were all laid out in front of you, There was no Dialouge Option that lead to a choice the PC could "discover" if you will. Maybe that's the difference, regardless of how much the two systems relate. Just Sayin.

The majority of the quests in DA2 were smaller than in DAO (though there was more of them overall), and they were also more linear. That has nothing to do with the dialogue system itself. I know people like to conflate the two ("I liked the plot less, and the dialogue presentation changed, so it must be responsible"), but between that and having people argue based on their feelings... well, it's a tad hard to parse into something useful.

What I often get out of these discussions is "Do it better".

Yep, got that much.

"Do it better THIS WAY."

Mmmm... no. That's just not going to happen. Sorry.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Wulfram wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

The DAO list you provide (which we would rarely actually do that way-- you provide 5 options, of which only 3 are actually very different from each other) is not the equivalent of the tone wheel example you provide from DA2. It would be the equivalent of the choice wheel. DAO had its equivalent of the tone wheel, which had the exact same tones and was also about flavor choices... so putting up the DA2 tone wheel and saying it didn't offer the same choices as the choice wheel equivalent is bad form, considering it was never designed to do that.

(sorry for horrible quality, it's from youtube)

I guess they weren't the actual final decision, which is why they didn't get the choice wheel, but they were still quite annoying for me.  Particularly since the resulting joke is not one of Hawke's better ones.

That was indeed a terribly done wheel. That kind of thing really needs to be avoided at all costs in the future.

It essentially boiled down to "Yes, i will do the favour without knowing at all what it is",  "No, i will not do the favour despite not knowing at all what it is" or "LOLZ, i don't do funny things with animals".  Because i don't create nor like sarcastic characters, i was relegated to saying yes or no without knowing anything about the task put forward. 

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 15 novembre 2012 - 02:52 .

[AlexanderCousland]

David Gaider wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...
Maybe it just felt that way because of the Dialouge Origins player's had to go through to resolve certain quests, Bercillian Forest & Zathrian, Isolde & Conor. The Warden had to give a certain set of responses in order to reach a  "good" outcome. In DA2 the choices were all laid out in front of you, There was no Dialouge Option that lead to a choice the PC could "discover" if you will. Maybe that's the difference, regardless of how much the two systems relate. Just Sayin.

The majority of the quests in DA2 were smaller than in DAO (though there was more of them overall), and they were also more linear. That has nothing to do with the dialogue system itself. I know people like to conflate the two ("I liked the plot less, and the dialogue presentation changed, so it must be responsible"), but between that and having people argue based on their feelings... well, it's a tad hard to parse into something useful.

What I often get out of these discussions is "Do it better".

Yep, got that much.

"Do it better THIS WAY."

Mmmm... no. That's just not going to happen. Sorry.

 Wasnt trying to tell you how to do your Job. 
 
If your saying, The Quests in DA2 were smaller and more linear so that limited the amount of choice that was given to the player, I understand. 

The point of naming specific quests was to give an example that certain dialouge responses and choices in Origin's were "hidden" or not so obvious. DA2 used the same system, all the choice's were obvious. and Im pretty sure I dont just "feel that way."

Im not here to argue wether or not Origins was better then DA2.

That being said, Im still optimistic about DA3.
 

 

[David Gaider]

Rojahar wrote...
I'm surprised people disliked the tone system so much, considering the biggest complaint about voiced protagonist and wheel is not knowing if a line will be delivered sarcastically or threateningly or whatever. Well, with the tone icons you know.

I'm certain that someone could immediately respond to that by saying that, no, you don't know. And while you didn't really know in DAO either, you were free to make it up. So we are preventing them from roleplaying in a particular kind of way, one that they were able to previously, and that's bad. In fact, I could probably recite the entire argument by now, in its entirety and in several different flavors.