128 réponses à ce sujet

[cindercatz]

Honestly, as much as I love DA:O and am two ways about DA2, this is one area that just flat out improved, and the wheel and emote system in DA2 is by far better than ME's. ME1's overall system was great because it still had persuade/intimidate, and DA3 would definitely be better if they were reintroduced, but otherwise DA2's wheel and dialogue system by itself is the best I've ever seen. Better than DA:O's, better the entire Mass Effect series' various systems, better than Alpha Protocol's, better than Deus Ex: Human Revolution's, better than Witcher 2's, and every other game I've played.

The icons themselves offer a vast improvement of clarity of what I'm trying to communicate through my character over the single line system. I don't feel that my character isn't allowed to articulate everything they should with the wheel. I had a lot less miscommunications with the wheel. The personality system allowed my Hawke to breathe much like my Wardens had in my head, but it no longer existed solely in my head.

It could certainly improve in ways I've talked about here and in the other related thread going on right now, and I very much approve of some version of a number of suggestions I've seen as well, but the wheel itself is so far the best I've seen and I only want to see it continue to improve. Yes, there are times when the paraphrases themselves are poor, and that will certainly need to improve. The real problems I had with DA2 (aside from combat issues and customization deficiency) boil down to game design decisions related to the narrative, a lack of branching, a lack of character rooting and world reactivity with the loss of origins and all their related systems, the forced specific perspective Hawke comes from. None of DA2's negatives are attributable to either the wheel or the personality/tone system themselves for me. I think they're quite an achievement when taken alone. I guess I'm just taking this oppurtunity to sing this particular system's praises. I really do find it very impressive.

Modifié par cindercatz, 15 novembre 2012 - 02:08 .

[abnocte]

AmstradHero wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
How the NPC receives the line isn't knowable.  We can't read their minds.

Therefore, we have no reason ever to think that the line wasn't delivered as we preferred.

I've seen you argue this before, and I still wholeheartedly disagree.

No you don't know exactly what thought process the NPC has used to parse the line the PC has delivered, but you don't need to know with 100% certainty. An upset NPC is still an upset NPC, which informs the player as to how the line was actually delivered.

More than once in my life I've been told something and ended upset or mad at the person that said it, but in the end the other party explained that it wasn't their intention to upset me or make me mad.

True that in videogames you don't have the option to explain yourself.

But I still think a persons reaction to a line has nothing to do with what the speaker tried to convey, but about how the reciever "feels" about what has just been said.

For example, we have Fenris who we know hates mages.
Imagine that we aren't exposed to such information upon meeting him.
You are having a normal conversation with him and start talking about family...

Hawke: ... my lil sister is the cuttest thing on Thedas. But she knows how to handle herself: she is a mage!
Fenris: *obviously angry* What?! *blah blah about how awful mages are*

Did Hawke delivered such line in a tone that would make anyone mad or angry?

Given how mages are percieved in Thedas any other person would may as well just scream and start running, or call the guards, or back away slowly and inform the Templars behind your back.

Fenris hates mages so he would react angrily or be mad at you.

But what was Hawke trying to say exactly? as I see it s/he was just boasting about his/her sister.

So an NPC will react just as the writers see fit for writings sake, sometimes they will react according to Hawke's tone, sometimes not.

Modifié par abnocte, 15 novembre 2012 - 02:24 .

[cindercatz]

The problem with that analogy is that Fenris would have actually perfectly understood your intent. He just would have acted on his own bias and emotions. What happens when the line is not correctly applied (as I roleplay, anyway) is that the other party just flat out percieves the communication as having entirely different intent, and then my character is forced to play off of their reaction.. as if they had correctly understood my intent, which they hadn't. Those moments are breakdowns in roleplay for me.

[David Gaider]

AmstradHero wrote...
In other words, Sylvius has derailed another thread with his "Voiced Protagonists Prevent Roleplaying" bandwagon.

I thought we might actually get to explore some new ideas about interfaces changes and how the wheel could drive more organic dialogue. Instead we get the same old arguments.

Pretty much.

An argument can certainly be made that a voiced protagonist removes the player one step from the character they're playing. Some might disagree, as having their character voiced actually allows their character to take part in scenes, but that mainly depends on whether you think cinematic elements add anything to the game. Certainly it's a stylistic difference insofar as an RPG goes, and one that specific people really don't like as it doesn't allow them to do a certain kind of roleplaying.

Either way, it's not an argument that needs to be rehashed over and over and over again, by the same posters, on these forums. No discussion on any element of the dialogue system can be had without drawing in every other element by the folks who want the entire system to revert to an earlier incarnation-- despite us having definitely said that it's not going to happen. It's starting to get to the point of spam.

I'm going to shut this down. General discussions on what constitutes proper roleplaying, and how dialogue contributes to that, can go into Off Topic. Anything that is specifically about DA3's dialogue system can go in these forums-- though, I warn you, not knowing much about that system yet means it'll be a fine line to walk.