175 réponses à ce sujet

[GordianKnot42]

I keep trying it, but I always always ALWAYS overheat the sucker.

The heat sink doesn't give you a couple extra rounds before overheating, does it?

[djidane_57]

as i read in another topic , after a while of practicing you just know when to stop firing in order to reload safely without going through dat endless animation

[LegionofRannoch]

I give it to my volus engineer, the hurricane will always be better but id say this CSMG is the the second best any. Then comes GPSMG.

[AznInvazion]

GordianKnot42 wrote...

I keep trying it, but I always always ALWAYS overheat the sucker.

The heat sink doesn't give you a couple extra rounds before overheating, does it?

This is the exact reason I don't like this weapon... it's so annoying to fire at an enemy only to get cut short coz the weapon overheats.  When you try to use it too soon you get the additional annoying animation of the character shaking his hand with the gun in the air.

[Ashen One]

capn233 wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

I disagree, the only exception being the AP mod for rapid fire weapons.

Many of the SR's have mediocre damage without at least Extended Barrel.  This is even true under Cloak bonus.

Before the last buff to sniper rifles I would say they have mediocre damage even with the extended barrel when not used on an Infiltrator class, but that's not entirely true anymore. The extended barrel mod is usually the best choice for them, but it's not because the sniper rifles are pathetically weak without it

capn233 wrote...
.
Shotguns are largely poor without Smart Choke, especially on any class that doesn't have magic accuracy bonuses.

That may be true with the Raider and the Piranha, but the other shotguns can get by just fine without a smart choke.

capn233 wrote...

And you can't discount piercing or high velocity barrel even if they were the only ones because that encompasses many weapons across two classes.

Good mods, but AP is generally only required on rapid firing weapons, and only if you're using those rapid firing weapons against armor.

[Atheosis]

It might be amazing at rank X, but it's terrible at lower ranks.

[Invader Nemesis]

Yours is at a 10 right? Mine is still at a 2....not saying its bad. Totally agree with you but a two...its meh okay...

[capn233]

Ashen Earth wrote...

Before the last buff to sniper rifles I would say they have mediocre damage even with the extended barrel when not used on an Infiltrator class, but that's not entirely true anymore. The extended barrel mod is usually the best choice for them, but it's not because the sniper rifles are pathetically weak without it

How often are you running an SR without the Extended Barrel, and how does it fare?

That may be true with the Raider and the Piranha, but the other shotguns can get by just fine without a smart choke.

It's actually true for every shotgun except perhaps the Wraith and Eviscerator.  And the low damage of the Eviscerator means it is only marginally above that cut.  The other weak shotguns are way too weak to suffer poor accuracy, and Raider, Piranha and Claymore have exceedingly poor range without it.

Good mods, but AP is generally only required on rapid firing weapons, and only if you're using those rapid firing weapons against armor.

It isn't even just "rapid fire" it is any with small damage per shot, which includes nearly all the burst weapons.  Essentially every SMG and every AR save Saber and Mattock.  Unless you scheme around that with Ammo.

As for not using them against armor, then you gone full on niche weapon mode... which would make sense except that nearly all weapons that are good against armor are interestingly good versus basics in practice.

Modifié par capn233, 13 novembre 2012 - 08:05 .

[HoochieHamiltoe]

Finally, somebody agrees that the CSMG is awesome!!

[Silcron]

if I ever get I'll tell you, it looks like an awesome weapon for me (for my use I mean), specially since I tend to only use one (harrier, mattock, widow) and I carry a secondary for those moments when you can't run to an ammo box, having a light smg with infinite ammo and piercing effect is perfect for me, and I'll only use it for a couple of sprays out of cover until I can go for ammo, so I do think it would be great for me.

[Ashen One]

capn233 wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

Before the last buff to sniper rifles I would say they have mediocre damage even with the extended barrel when not used on an Infiltrator class, but that's not entirely true anymore. The extended barrel mod is usually the best choice for them, but it's not because the sniper rifles are pathetically weak without it

How often are you running an SR without the Extended Barrel, and how does it fare?

Never.

I always use the extended barrel on the sniper rifles because it's a better mod than the others available, not because the sniper rifles are too weak without it.

It's actually true for every shotgun except perhaps the Wraith and Eviscerator.  And the low damage of the Eviscerator means it is only marginally above that cut. The other weak shotguns are way too weak to suffer poor accuracy, and Raider, Piranha and Claymore have exceedingly poor range without it.

Or you could move closer to your enemy and use the shotguns in CQC as was intended. Some of the shotguns you didn't mention (Graal, Claymore, GPS, Reegar) are fine without the smart choke. (2 of those don't even benefit from it)

Really though, there isn't really a need to choose between better accuracy, AP and increased damage now that we have the HVB

It isn't even just "rapid fire" it is any with small damage per shot, which includes all the burst weapons.  Essentially every SMG and every AR save Saber and Mattock.  Unless you scheme around that with Ammo.

Or class specific abilities that weaken armor.

As for not using them against armor, then you gone full on niche weapon mode... which would make sense except that nearly all weapons that are good against armor are interestingly good versus basics in practice.

The point I was trying to illustrate is that the CSMG sucks against everything without the magazine upgrade. You could run an Indra without an AP mod and still be very effective vs shields/barrier/health. Obviously the AP mod is one of the best choices for a weapon like the Indra, but even without it the gun would still have some use.

The same cannot be said of the CSMG.

[A Wild Snorlax]

32 minute clear time with an infiltrator = gun is awesome, because, **** logic.

If anything it proves that when your top scorer is using a collector smg you're going to take ages to finish the game.

[upinya slayin]

Ashen Earth wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

The GI does got insane damage boosts. were all aware of that. but the CSMG works on every class. the pheaston and disciple doesn't

It works as an acceptable sidearm for every class, especially now that ULM works. I would use a high level CSMG or ULM Hurricane with any class that is only carrying one weapon simply because I can, ULM makes the weapons essentially free to equip.

The CSMG is not good enough to justify equipping it as a primary weapon over something like a Wraith, Piranha, Indra or Talon.

It doens't pack the punch of the weapon listed but its lighter, doens't require ammo or relaoding, has built in armor damage modifyer (aka does more damage to armor per shot then the indra) and allows a 90% ability to ignor armor (the SMG has the bets armor mod in the game) Its usable as a primary weapon as well.

I guess my point was that its an awesome weapon. In thearoy the best gun to use for eveyr class is basically a harrier or wraith but it doens't mean that nobodu should sue anything different. Alot of people think it sucks, I was ismply saying its actually a pretty bad ass weapon. I'm sure you'd agree with that statement

its not about making the best most OP build ever, its just saying that its an awesome SMG. also you should compare it to ther SMGs and none hold a candle to it except teh hurricane. and the hurricane needs the thermal clip, stability, and AP to make it a good gun. requiring the usage of certain classes (turain for stability) or armor bonus and ammo bonus and mods. the CSMG is perfect with magazine and AP mod and doens't need an ammo power or armor bonus or certain class to make up for it. and its lighter

[upinya slayin]

Alijah Green wrote...

Stealing kills doesn't make it a good gun

That makes no sesne?????

[upinya slayin]

LadyNemsis21 wrote...

Yours is at a 10 right? Mine is still at a 2....not saying its bad. Totally agree with you but a two...its meh okay...

noooo. what kind of DB has it at X?

Try it with magazine and AP mods on a caster. you'll love it

[capn233]

Ashen Earth wrote...

Never.

I always use the extended barrel on the sniper rifles because it's a better mod than the others available, not because the sniper rifles are too weak without it.

There is an interesting perspective.  You should try Javelin or Widow family on a non-infiltrator with and without an EB.

Or you could move closer to your enemy and use the shotguns in CQC as was intended. Some of the shotguns you didn't mention (Graal, Claymore, GPS, Reegar) are fine without the smart choke. (2 of those don't even benefit from it)

Really though, there isn't really a need to choose between better accuracy, AP and increased damage now that we have the HVB

There's another interesting perspective.  What is CQC range?  Point Blank?  Even the Wraith is better at one-shot stopping enemies with heads at close range with the Smart Choke than without it.  Unless you are on an infiltrator, human soldier, or a class with accuracy bonuses (the double dipping GI, or Turian Soldier, or Destroyer) you can't brute force the damage or make up for the poor accuracy even at moderate range with most of the shotguns.

Yes I did conveniently leave out the whole 2 shotguns which don't need smart choke.  GPS has no benefit and is an outlier, and Graal doesn't particularly need it since it is the Krogan version of the GPS.  Although Graal actually does get an accuracy bonus from SC... just that it is of debatable utility.

Claymore not needing smart choke is very interesting.  I bet if we sampled opinions we would find more that think  you can drop Extended Barrel relative to the number that want to drop Smart Choke.  And I mentioned Claymore specifically in the text you quoted.

Or class specific abilities that weaken armor.

Yeah I suppose that is somewhat true... most classes don't have an ability that do that.

The point I was trying to illustrate is that the CSMG sucks against everything without the magazine upgrade. You could run an Indra without an AP mod and still be very effective vs shields/barrier/health. Obviously the AP mod is one of the best choices for a weapon like the Indra, but even without it the gun would still have some use.

The same cannot be said of the CSMG.

But are you running Extended Barrel on the Indra?

I think this is a question of degree, and in fact the CSMG is deficient in the ability to down a large group of enemies in one burst, or single high HP targets.  Many of the SMG's are a lot better with a heat sink or thermal clip mod though... maybe it is a better example of a necessary mod on that class than the HVB.

Modifié par capn233, 13 novembre 2012 - 08:32 .

[Ashen One]

upinya slayin wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

The GI does got insane damage boosts. were all aware of that. but the CSMG works on every class. the pheaston and disciple doesn't

It works as an acceptable sidearm for every class, especially now that ULM works. I would use a high level CSMG or ULM Hurricane with any class that is only carrying one weapon simply because I can, ULM makes the weapons essentially free to equip.

The CSMG is not good enough to justify equipping it as a primary weapon over something like a Wraith, Piranha, Indra or Talon.

It doens't pack the punch of the weapon listed but its lighter, doens't require ammo or relaoding, has built in armor damage modifyer (aka does more damage to armor per shot then the indra) and allows a 90% ability to ignor armor (the SMG has the bets armor mod in the game) Its usable as a primary weapon as well.

If the weapon is less effective than one of the alternatives, then making the choice to use it is making the choice to gimp your own effectiveness. The "it's lighter" argument isn't a good one, because the difference between 200% CD bonus and 160% for an Adept or 140% for an Engineer is really insignificant. I wouldn't have to choose between a Wraith or CSMG, because I'd be inclined to use both. (or Wraith and different secondary weapon) The "it does more damage to armor than the Indra" argument is also flawed because the armor damage multiplier is applied after armor damage reduction. Unless you're running AP, Cryo, Warp ammo, or a class with a weaken armor ability, you're actually losing quite a bit of damage that the 1.5x multiplier isn't going to really compensate for since it is applied to your heavily reduced damage.

That is why I say it's a good sidearm. As a sidearm, it's advantages over the other weapons make it worth equipping. It's never going to compete with a Wraith, Indra, Talon ect... as a caster primary weapon and I don't think it should with a weight of 0.35

[squidney2k1]

I still don't even have it, which is strange cuz usually it took only maybe 10-12 PSP's before I got the UR from a recent DLC.

...I'm probably 60+ Premium Spectre Packs in since Retaliation, and still don't have it.

Modifié par squidney2k1, 13 novembre 2012 - 08:35 .

[kitty209]

trying it personally i hated it, maybe at later levels but for me, right now it feel like prebuff geth rifle with PPR reload x.x

[Ashen One]

capn233 wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

Never.

I always use the extended barrel on the sniper rifles because it's a better mod than the others available, not because the sniper rifles are too weak without it.

There is an interesting perspective.  You should try Javelin or Widow family on a non-infiltrator with and without an EB.

I would never use either of those weapons without an Infiltrator anyway because the damage they deal without the TC damage bonus is not worth it relative to their weight regardless of weapon mods. Why would I equip a Widow, when the Wraith does the same damage and allows me to equip something like a Scorpion for general utility with the two weapons combined still having less weight?

It wouldn't really prove anything.

There's another interesting perspective.  What is CQC range?  Point Blank?

Not necessarily, just don't expect to snipe enemies from the ridge on Firebase Condor.

Even the Wraith is better at one-shot stopping enemies with heads at close range with the Smart Choke than without it.

Of course it is, and I never insinuated that it is better without the smart choke.

Regardless of whether or not you decide to use it, you'll still be doing quite a bit of damage. Without it, you'll simply need to move closer to enemies. But try killing something like a Phantom with a CSMG running mods other than the magazine upgrade. You'll spend more time waiting for your ammo counter to slowly refill than actually firing your gun.

[Geek]

@Slayin you might make a more convincing argument if you added video instead of that screenshot. Both Slim and Gollum love it and I would agree under the proper conditions it can be very good.

My biggest complaint with it though is the regenerating ammo. Overheating it has a big penalty, and the time it takes to regenerate the ammo without overheating is still longer than it takes to reload other smgs. Would much rather refill it at the ammo crates that are everywhere or use one of my 255 ammo packs.

Modifié par rymoulton, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:01 .

[Eelectrica]

Good to know a UR is good at X.

[Uh Cold]

i no liek et

[upinya slayin]

Ashen Earth wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

The GI does got insane damage boosts. were all aware of that. but the CSMG works on every class. the pheaston and disciple doesn't

It works as an acceptable sidearm for every class, especially now that ULM works. I would use a high level CSMG or ULM Hurricane with any class that is only carrying one weapon simply because I can, ULM makes the weapons essentially free to equip.

The CSMG is not good enough to justify equipping it as a primary weapon over something like a Wraith, Piranha, Indra or Talon.

It doens't pack the punch of the weapon listed but its lighter, doens't require ammo or relaoding, has built in armor damage modifyer (aka does more damage to armor per shot then the indra) and allows a 90% ability to ignor armor (the SMG has the bets armor mod in the game) Its usable as a primary weapon as well.

If the weapon is less effective than one of the alternatives, then making the choice to use it is making the choice to gimp your own effectiveness. The "it's lighter" argument isn't a good one, because the difference between 200% CD bonus and 160% for an Adept or 140% for an Engineer is really insignificant. I wouldn't have to choose between a Wraith or CSMG, because I'd be inclined to use both. (or Wraith and different secondary weapon) The "it does more damage to armor than the Indra" argument is also flawed because the armor damage multiplier is applied after armor damage reduction. Unless you're running AP, Cryo, Warp ammo, or a class with a weaken armor ability, you're actually losing quite a bit of damage that the 1.5x multiplier isn't going to really compensate for since it is applied to your heavily reduced damage.

That is why I say it's a good sidearm. As a sidearm, it's advantages over the other weapons make it worth equipping. It's never going to compete with a Wraith, Indra, Talon ect... as a caster primary weapon and I don't think it should with a weight of 0.35

I don't ever agree with the less effective argument cause as you said (and i agree) the difference between a 200% cooldown and a 140-160% cooldown isn't a big in game difference so theortically you hsold use a harrier or wraith for eevyr class since it still gets you in the nice cooldown range and pack the most punch out of every weapon. I can't think of 1 class that a wraith or harrier isn't your best option. Doens't mean i only want to sue those 2 guns every game

Also the SMG mod ignores 90% of armor so your only losing 10% of your damage output of it so a 150% - 15% (which is 10%) means you lose 15% against armor so it still does a 1.35% multipleir vs armor w/o using an ammo bonus.

I never said it would compete with a talon, wriath, etc. By desighn SMGs aren't mean to do the damage of heavy pistols, ARs, SRs etc. they are meant ot be light wieght, rapid fire weapons capable of decent damage but better used with powers. I'm syaing its a good weapon that can be used as a primary killer on a non weapon class. It doens't mean its the best option. It just means its a good option. and I do think its one of the best options for caster classes. I've used so much wriath since i think it works great on eveyrthing that its nice to switch up to a CSMG. Also i like using non popular wepaons. eveyrone and their mom uses a harrier or PPR when they have one.

[capn233]

Ashen Earth wrote...

Without it, you'll simply need to move closer to enemies. But try killing something like a Phantom with a CSMG running mods other than the magazine upgrade. You'll spend more time waiting for your ammo counter to slowly refill than actually firing your gun.

I agree with your notion that the CSMG is an adequate back up gun and not a primary.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the mods though.  If the solution to smart choke on shotguns is just "move closer," then I guess we would be generalizing to that to "just shoot protected enemies more times" with the SR's, or "just debuff targets with powers or ammo" instead of using piercing, etc.