98 réponses à ce sujet

[fchopin]

We are back to the what came first the egg or the chicken question.

[Xilizhra]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

- Sixth, keeping the Reapers as the obvious bad guys gives everybody a common foe to unite against. This goes both for the galaxy and the fanbase, and thus gives the writers another unifying theme to focus on without cutting too much into player choice.

This I'll disagree strongly with. I 100% support the realization at the end that the Reapers weren't the true evil behind everything, and if it makes you more uncomfortable with committing genocide, than I call that great success. I'd have foreshadowed it better, but this is an aspect of the ending that I outright love.

They have been committing genocides for tens of millions of years (at least), and when we talked to them they were quite smug about it. With that background there´s no motivation or excuse that works to whitewash them. Even if we go to the excuse of sackled AIs by another AI, I see no more trouble with destroying them themselves than I´d do with Skynet & its T-army. It´s all they do.

Well, if you have no problems with genocide, I can't make you have them.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know. For delicious fanbase heartbreak, I rather prefer what we have now.

Really?  Because imagining your face when you have to toss Liara off a cliff fills me with a special kind of glee.  It'd be like forum Christmas, only I get yummy Xil tears instead of socks and cooking appliances.

(That was an unnecessary dig and I apologize, but seriously I couldn't resist.)

This I'll disagree strongly with. I 100% support the realization at the end that the Reapers weren't the true evil behind everything, and if it makes you more uncomfortable with committing genocide, than I call that great success. I'd have foreshadowed it better, but this is an aspect of the ending that I outright love.

But then we get the unending loop of puppets and puppet masters, which is a total pain in the ass.

Seriously, imagine if the latest 007 flick ends with Q removing his mask to reveal an alien underneath: "Ha-HA, Mr. Bond!  I was the bad guy all along!  SPECTRE is actually a defense initiative meant to protect Earth from a Martian invasion!"

And James Bond/the audience just sits there like WTF dude what about the dozens of previous movies do they even matter anymore u kno what i am done srsly i quit this series....

[Xilizhra]

Really? Because imagining your face when you have to toss Liara off a cliff fills me with a special kind of glee. It'd be like forum Christmas, only I get yummy Xil tears instead of socks and cooking appliances.

(That was an unnecessary dig and I apologize, but seriously I couldn't resist.)

I only cry daggers. Which bounce up to lodge into the throat of the recipient. It's why I try to stay optimistic about Bioware developments.

But then we get the unending loop of puppets and puppet masters, which is a total pain in the ass.

Not really. Just kill the Catalyst and then decide if you want to slaughter every last Reaper.

[Nerevar-as]

Xilizhra wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

- Sixth, keeping the Reapers as the obvious bad guys gives everybody a common foe to unite against. This goes both for the galaxy and the fanbase, and thus gives the writers another unifying theme to focus on without cutting too much into player choice.

This I'll disagree strongly with. I 100% support the realization at the end that the Reapers weren't the true evil behind everything, and if it makes you more uncomfortable with committing genocide, than I call that great success. I'd have foreshadowed it better, but this is an aspect of the ending that I outright love.

They have been committing genocides for tens of millions of years (at least), and when we talked to them they were quite smug about it. With that background there´s no motivation or excuse that works to whitewash them. Even if we go to the excuse of sackled AIs by another AI, I see no more trouble with destroying them themselves than I´d do with Skynet & its T-army. It´s all they do.

Well, if you have no problems with genocide, I can't make you have them.

Destroying the Reapers is not genocide (taking all other AIs along because of horrible writing did hurt, however). Creating them was.

[Kidd]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know. For delicious fanbase heartbreak, I rather prefer what we have now.

Really?  Because imagining your face when you have to toss Liara off a cliff fills me with a special kind of glee.  It'd be like forum Christmas, only I get yummy Xil tears instead of socks and cooking appliances.

You hurt me, Cheez.

I already found myself crying on the floor, pounding my mattress with my fists while yelling Liara's name from the original ending. It's bad enough that she had to live without Shep, don't make this even worse on me now ;P

[grey_wind]

@OP
The Reapers have always been over-the-top villains since ME1. I don't see how ME2 and ME3 changed this. Could you clarify?

Modifié par grey_wind, 13 novembre 2012 - 08:51 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

I only cry daggers. Which bounce up to lodge into the throat of the recipient. It's why I try to stay optimistic about Bioware developments.

Optimism.  Bioware.  Oh, you crack me up. (Someone, help me, I've become hopelessly embittered.)

Not really. Just kill the Catalyst and then decide if you want to slaughter every last Reaper.

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT.

NARRATIVE COHERENCY, XIL.  NARRATIVE MOTHERF*ING COHERENCY.

(Also it's okay to kill Reapers because they don't believe in Jesus.  #sarcasm)

@KiddDaBeauty: Muahahaha!!

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 13 novembre 2012 - 08:52 .

[Xilizhra]

Optimism. Bioware. Oh, you crack me up. (Someone, help me, I've become hopelessly embittered.)

Once, I was a seething cauldron of hatred over ME3's endings. However, I got over that.

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT.

NARRATIVE COHERENCY, XIL. NARRATIVE MOTHERF*ING COHERENCY.

Perhaps it should have been foreshadowed better. I won't argue that; certainly Control and Synthesis should have been. However, I do like the twist aspect.

[fiendishchicken]

ending that fits my story better. by far.

[Ieldra]

grey_wind wrote...
@OP
The Reapers have always been over-the-top villains since ME1. I don't see how ME2 and ME3 changed this. Could you clarify?

They  pushed the horror aspect - i.e. the visual presentation - up to eleven in ME2, and then again in ME3. This reinforces the "abomination" aspect to an almost ridiculous degree. Since the presentation was laughably over-the-top the horror was never quite real for me, and since I don't believe that there are such things as "abominations" and I think this is a cheap attempt at emotional manipulation, I disliked the way the story appeared to go. In the end, it didn't, though, and for that I'm immensely grateful even if it means the ending didn't quite fit the story.

[Nerevar-as]

Ieldra2 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...
@OP
The Reapers have always been over-the-top villains since ME1. I don't see how ME2 and ME3 changed this. Could you clarify?

They  pushed the horror aspect - i.e. the visual presentation - up to eleven in ME2, and then again in ME3. This reinforces the "abomination" aspect to an almost ridiculous degree. Since the presentation was laughably over-the-top the horror was never quite real for me, and since I don't believe that there are such things as "abominations" and I think this is a cheap attempt at emotional manipulation, I disliked the way the story appeared to go. In the end, it didn't, though, and for that I'm immensely grateful even if it means the ending didn't quite fit the story.

How so? Nothing in ME2 or 3 gave me a worse impression than what we already knew.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

Once, I was a seething cauldron of hatred over ME3's endings. However, I got over that.

Good on ya, Xil.  MOVING ON...

Perhaps it should have been foreshadowed better. I won't argue that; certainly Control and Synthesis should have been. However, I do like the twist aspect.

Nah, bro.  Twist endings that introduce an important yet never-before-mentioned character are bad.

Unless you're M. Night Shaylaman, in which case they are still bad, but you go ahead and ruin your career anyway.

Nonetheless, I agree that CONTROL would have worked with more foreshadowing, but Synthesis shall forever be stupid (in my opinion).  Cool concept, but thematically inapropros for Mass Effect.

[Raizo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

To take up your comparison, Applepie:

The problem is that you usually don't even start building if you have no plan for the whole house. Regarding ME, the trilogy should've been designed as a trilogy rather than as three simply connected games.

I agree. I was quite shocked when I found out that ME1, ME2 and ME3 were written separately from one another and that Bioware were just making the story up as they were going along with only a rough idea of where they wanted the story to end up and what  themes they wanted too explore.

[grey_wind]

Ieldra2 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...
@OP
The Reapers have always been over-the-top villains since ME1. I don't see how ME2 and ME3 changed this. Could you clarify?

They  pushed the horror aspect - i.e. the visual presentation - up to eleven in ME2, and then again in ME3. This reinforces the "abomination" aspect to an almost ridiculous degree. Since the presentation was laughably over-the-top the horror was never quite real for me, and since I don't believe that there are such things as "abominations" and I think this is a cheap attempt at emotional manipulation, I disliked the way the story appeared to go. In the end, it didn't, though, and for that I'm immensely grateful even if it means the ending didn't quite fit the story.

The only thing I can think of pushing the horror aspect in ME2 was them liquifying bodies, and that goes hand in hand with how Sovereign perceives organic life as something beneath him, plus some of EDI's deductions that were cut from ME2:  

I actually found them to be playing a weird sort of tug-of-war wth the Reapers' horror in ME3. On one hand you have people designing the different husks and writing codex entries on how cruel the Reapers are, but on the other hand they were trying to make the husks as un-horrific as possible (as per the artbook) and never showed us a lot of nasty stuff like the concentration camps. Then you have the Catalyst. It honestly felt like two different people were designing ME3 every step of the way.

[Xilizhra]

Nah, bro. Twist endings that introduce an important yet never-before-mentioned character are bad.

Unless you're M. Night Shaylaman, in which case they are still bad, but you go ahead and ruin your career anyway.

Nonetheless, I agree that CONTROL would have worked with more foreshadowing, but Synthesis shall forever be stupid (in my opinion). Cool concept, but thematically inapropros for Mass Effect.

What if the Catalyst was actually trying to summon Shepard through her dreams, and possibly spoke in them?

[Nerevar-as]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Nonetheless, I agree that CONTROL would have worked with more foreshadowing, but Synthesis shall forever be stupid (in my opinion).  Cool concept, but thematically inapropros for Mass Effect.

Synthesis as presented in ME3 made absolutely no sense, neither mechanism nor consequences. I agree that it doesn´t fit thematically either, at least I don´t remember any talk about transhumanism in the whole saga, and as an answer to the organic-synthetic relationship was laughable: the only viable solution to overcome differences is to eliminate them? Nice implications there.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

What if the Catalyst was actually trying to summon Shepard through her dreams, and possibly spoke in them?

Then you trade one stupid idea for another slightly-less-but-still-pretty-stupid idea.  Such a device would still remove agency from Sov and Harby (two characters the fanbase has a significant attachment to) and frankly do nothing to make me stop hating the stupid kid and the stupid dream sequences.

Foreshadowing, unfortunately, is not a cure-all for bad narrative decisions (although it helps).

[Nerevar-as]

Xilizhra wrote...

Nah, bro. Twist endings that introduce an important yet never-before-mentioned character are bad.

Unless you're M. Night Shaylaman, in which case they are still bad, but you go ahead and ruin your career anyway.

Nonetheless, I agree that CONTROL would have worked with more foreshadowing, but Synthesis shall forever be stupid (in my opinion). Cool concept, but thematically inapropros for Mass Effect.

What if the Catalyst was actually trying to summon Shepard through her dreams, and possibly spoke in them?

What for? It couldn´t know about the Crucible until it appeared on Sol system. Apparently it didn´t know about how it upgraded the Citadel until it docked. There´s no reason why it takes Shepard to its presence if Synthesis is not available as anything Shepard does stops its function and solution. Writing is so bad it can´t be salvaged.

[AdmiralCheez]

Nerevar-as wrote...

...the only viable solution to overcome differences is to eliminate them? Nice implications there.

AND THUS, WE REACH THE HEART OF THE ISSUE AS TO WHY THE ENDINGS ARE ULTIMATELY STUPID.

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE VALUE OF DIVERSITY AND THE VIRTUE OF WORKING TOGETHER AND UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER DESPITE OUR DIFFERENCES?  GEE, WASN'T THAT A CORE NARRATIVE THEME OR SOMETHING?

OR AM I JUST SUPPOSED TO IGNORE WREX, THE SUICIDE MISSION, AND THE GETH/QUARIAN CONFLICT?

THANK YOU, GOOD SIR OR MADAM NEREVAR, FOR CONSISELY AND ELOQUENTLY STATING ONE OF ME3'S BIGGEST PROBLEMS.

/royal canterlot voice

/shameful MLP:FiM reference

[SlottsMachine]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know. For delicious fanbase heartbreak, I rather prefer what we have now.

Really?  Because imagining your face when you have to toss Liara off a cliff fills me with a special kind of glee.  It'd be like forum Christmas, only I get yummy Xil tears instead of socks and cooking appliances.

(That was an unnecessary dig and I apologize, but seriously I couldn't resist.)

Haha, good stuff. Seriously though, I do wish Shepard got a glimpse into the horrors of which Javik speaks.

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What if the Catalyst was actually trying to summon Shepard through her dreams, and possibly spoke in them?

Then you trade one stupid idea for another slightly-less-but-still-pretty-stupid idea.  Such a device would still remove agency from Sov and Harby (two characters the fanbase has a significant attachment to) and frankly do nothing to make me stop hating the stupid kid and the stupid dream sequences.

Foreshadowing, unfortunately, is not a cure-all for bad narrative decisions (although it helps).

Why? Sovereign was a rather lame poser (claims of invincibility really don't seem very plausible when your remains are flying off in different directions) and Harbinger was... well, fun in its own way, but just a shade silly. Neither one was really compelling as a character; of course, neither was the Catalyst, but still.

[Tritium315]

There's nothing in the world that could fit that travesty well.

[Eterna]

Story that fits the ending better. With the right explanation and forshadowing I think a lot of people would have been okay.

[CrutchCricket]

(1) I cannot agree with this because being "forced" to sacrifice can be just as artificial as getting a perfect outcome and a lot more aggravating to boot. Subtlety isn't ME's strong suit by far and thus, given the choice I would much rather get the latter than the former. Helps my blood pressure.

(2) Yes. I like what was done with synthetics before the end. It worked well as a subplot. Turning it into the Terminator/The Matrix in space was full retard.

(3) I've said this before it's not the horror of the Reapers I admired it was their status as incomprehensible and alien. The "Eldritch" part, not necessarily the "Abomination". The loss of this diminishes the entire conflict. Nigh-cosmic entities, you say? Nay! Giant Killbots away!

Spare me.<_<

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:27 .