98 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

General Slotts wrote...

Haha, good stuff. Seriously though, I do wish Shepard got a glimpse into the horrors of which Javik speaks.

Oh, yeah.  The problem is that it takes a lot of narrative finesse to pull off that kind of stuff, and you need to know how much is too much when it comes to tearing out the player's heart and stomping on it.  After all, if the player doesn't feel good when the credits roll, then (s)he's not going to play the game again, and thus you can kiss DLC sales goodbye.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

An ending that fits the story better, because that would mean less work than fixing the entire trilogy to fit the ending.

Though I feel that is not the real question (pardon me for being tired), if you simply ask if I would have prefered a story that followed the mood and tone of the ending or one of the other games. I would have to pick the other games, simply put, I wanted Mass Effect to be a heroic sci-fi story with a viable renegade path for those that want to play a more ruthless and cunning hero.

Xilizhra wrote...
I don't know. For delicious fanbase heartbreak, I rather prefer what we have now.

Okay, this has me wondering. What are you thinking about when saying this?

[Xilizhra]

Okay, this has me wondering. What are you thinking about when saying this?

Well, nearly anything is better than being forced to kill Liara.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Okay, this has me wondering. What are you thinking about when saying this?

Well, nearly anything is better than being forced to kill Liara.

That only came after your made this statement. Were you talking about TIM/Udina?

[SlottsMachine]

@Cheez

They seemed hell bent on tearing our hearts out anyways, might as well make it interesting. It would have fit with there war is hell theme they were pushing better than Anderson chanting "war is bad" over and over again.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why? Sovereign was a rather lame poser (claims of invincibility really don't seem very plausible when your remains are flying off in different directions) and Harbinger was... well, fun in its own way, but just a shade silly. Neither one was really compelling as a character; of course, neither was the Catalyst, but still.

Both villains were egotistical blowhards, but for the most part they had the awesome power to back it up (remember, it took an entire fleet to take down Sovereign).  Players had already come into conflict with them, and thus there was a previously-established personal connection that Bioware could have exploited.  Not being able to confront Harby directly was one of the major letdowns of ME3, and making him a mindless tool as opposed to a self-determining entity was an insult to his character, just as much as lolindoctrination did a serious disservice to TIM and Udina.

Granted, being a puppet isn't always an insult.  Sovereign's control made Saren an interesting character, and unveiling the true mastermind was a major plot point in ME1.  We saw Saren struggle with his indoctrination during both our major encounters with him, and throughot the game he became more aware and terrified of what was happening to him.  Players could feel sorry for him, despite the monster he was, and his tragic fall served as a warning for Shepard: Saren was just as powerful and strong-willed as Shepard, and yet Sovereign easily destroyed his mind and independence.  Shepard, too, could possibly fall to the Reapers just as Saren had.

This is another one of ME3's problems: They tried to pull off the exact same gig with TIM.  Now, while TIM and Saren have a lot in common, what's the damn point of reusing the exact same subplot twice in the same series?  Hell, even the final confrontation is pretty much copy-pasted from ME1.  This is storytelling laziness to the extreme.

@GeneralSlotts: Good point.  It's ye olde "show, don't tell" directive that is oh-so-important to constructing a narrative.  In videogames, it becomes "do, don't show," since the greater the player's involvement is in a certain plot element, the more (s)he will come to care about it.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:43 .

[Xilizhra]

Both villains were egotistical blowhards, but for the most part they had the awesome power to back it up (remember, it took an entire fleet to take down Sovereign). Players had already come into conflict with them, and thus there was a previously-established personal connection that Bioware could have exploited. Not being able to confront Harby directly was one of the major letdowns of ME3, and making him a mindless tool as opposed to a self-determining entity was an insult to his character, just as much as lolindoctrination did a serious disservice to TIM and Udina.

I find the idea of the Reapers' "character" itself being an indoctrinated lie to be quite compelling. Hell, what if instead of TIM you had an indoctrination conflict with, it was Harbinger itself? Trying to get Harbinger to escape from the Catalyst's impositions? Or possibly trying to break the entire Reaper fleet away from Harbinger, if Harbinger turned out to be the true mastermind.

[CosmicGnosis]

I want the story to prepare us for the possibility that the Reapers aren't as "evil" as they are made out to be. Shepard has called for all species to move past their old conflicts and come together. How fitting it would have been if Shepard had to do the same with the Reapers. Is he so blinded by hatred that he is incapable of considering a new perspective? Is he willing to consider that the Reapers themselves aren't the real problem?

We kind of already have this scenario: the Catalyst controls the Reapers. But as we all know, it doesn't really end up in a satisfying place...

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:56 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

I find the idea of the Reapers' "character" itself being an indoctrinated lie to be quite compelling. Hell, what if instead of TIM you had an indoctrination conflict with, it was Harbinger itself? Trying to get Harbinger to escape from the Catalyst's impositions? Or possibly trying to break the entire Reaper fleet away from Harbinger, if Harbinger turned out to be the true mastermind.

"X was a lie all along" is NOT a compelling plot device in and of itself.  It requires proper context, something lacking in the Mass Effect series.  Too often is this sort of thing used for the purpose of retconning things, which is EXACTLY what happened in ME3.

Help Harby escape the Catalyst: We still have the Russian nesting doll problem of puppet vs puppeteer.  Besides, I'm willing to best most players aren't interesting in HELPING Harbinger so much as they are KICKING HIS MILLION-YEAR-OLD METAL ASS.

Help other Reapers escape Harby: Dude?  Not every villain has to turn out to be a good guy working against his/her will for an even bigger villain.  Like seriously, enough people had a problem with making the geth innocent victims; doing it again, especially with something as big and nasty as the Reapers, would simply be too much.  Oh yeah, and it STILL takes agency away from Sovereign, who was an effective enough villain on his own (and actually has more fans than Harby, if the forums are to be believed).

Neither of these scenarios solve the TIM problem, by the way.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I want the story to prepare us for the possibility that the Reapers aren't as "evil" as they are made out to be. Shepard has called for all species to move past their old conflicts and come together. How fitting it would have been if Shepard had to do the same with the Reapers. Is he so blinded by hatred that he is incapable of hearing their case? Is he willing to consider that maybe the Reapers themselves aren't the real problem?

We already kind of have this scenario; the Catalyst controls the Reapers. But as we all know, it doesn't really end up in a satisfying place...

There is one line in the game that does this: "Now, if you pacify the Reapers, we'll make you a saint." -Garrus

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 13 novembre 2012 - 09:57 .

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I find the idea of the Reapers' "character" itself being an indoctrinated lie to be quite compelling. Hell, what if instead of TIM you had an indoctrination conflict with, it was Harbinger itself? Trying to get Harbinger to escape from the Catalyst's impositions? Or possibly trying to break the entire Reaper fleet away from Harbinger, if Harbinger turned out to be the true mastermind.

"X was a lie all along" is NOT a compelling plot device in and of itself.  It requires proper context, something lacking in the Mass Effect series.  Too often is this sort of thing used for the purpose of retconning things, which is EXACTLY what happened in ME3.

Help Harby escape the Catalyst: We still have the Russian nesting doll problem of puppet vs puppeteer.  Besides, I'm willing to best most players aren't interesting in HELPING Harbinger so much as they are KICKING HIS MILLION-YEAR-OLD METAL ASS.

Help other Reapers escape Harby: Dude?  Not every villain has to turn out to be a good guy working against his/her will for an even bigger villain.  Like seriously, enough people had a problem with making the geth innocent victims; doing it again, especially with something as big and nasty as the Reapers, would simply be too much.  Oh yeah, and it STILL takes agency away from Sovereign, who was an effective enough villain on his own (and actually has more fans than Harby, if the forums are to be believed).

Neither of these scenarios solve the TIM problem, by the way.

It wasn't too much for myself or many others. You could still just destroy them all if you wanted, at least in my scenario; the other option is to free them and have them blast Harbinger. If you're interested, my scenario also involves using the Citadel relay to head into dark space, and has the final stage set in the complex where the Reapers were created to begin with.

Oh, and TIM: I wasn't making plans to deal with him yet.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 novembre 2012 - 10:01 .

[AdmiralCheez]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I want the story to prepare us for the possibility that the Reapers aren't as "evil" as they are made out to be. Shepard has called for all species to move past their old conflicts and come together. How fitting it would have been if Shepard had to do the same with the Reapers. Is he so blinded by hatred that he is incapable of hearing their case? Is he willing to consider that maybe the Reapers themselves aren't the real problem?

There are only so many times you can use a plot device in a certain series before it becomes too old.  For a lot of people, having the geth turn out to be nice people was pushing it a little too far.  Besides, the Reapers were ALREADY the "bigger problem" that everyone had to unite against; adding another link in the chain would not only be superfluous but actually damaging to the story since the ultimate problem has not been solved.

And let's not forget, Shepard ALREADY had to overcome personal hatred for the sake of the common good.  Seriously, look at Cerberus and Legion in ME2.  LOOK AT THEM.  And then there's all the aliens if you're Renegade and Aria/Zaeed/additional Renebros if you're Paragon.

Russian nesting dolls, man.  I bet there's a page on TVTropes about it.

We already kind of have this scenario; the Catalyst controls the Reapers. But as we all know, it doesn't really end up in a satisfying place...

NO!  REALLY?  YOU MUST BE JOKING.

[Applepie_Svk]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

...the only viable solution to overcome differences is to eliminate them? Nice implications there.

AND THUS, WE REACH THE HEART OF THE ISSUE AS TO WHY THE ENDINGS ARE ULTIMATELY STUPID.

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE VALUE OF DIVERSITY AND THE VIRTUE OF WORKING TOGETHER AND UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER DESPITE OUR DIFFERENCES?  GEE, WASN'T THAT A CORE NARRATIVE THEME OR SOMETHING?

OR AM I JUST SUPPOSED TO IGNORE WREX, THE SUICIDE MISSION, AND THE GETH/QUARIAN CONFLICT?

THANK YOU, GOOD SIR OR MADAM NEREVAR, FOR CONSISELY AND ELOQUENTLY STATING ONE OF ME3'S BIGGEST PROBLEMS.

/royal canterlot voice

/shameful MLP:FiM reference

This reminds me one of the Seival´s zealous threads about how bad differences are... No implication of Godwin´s law here...

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

It wasn't too much for myself or many others. You could still just destroy them all if you wanted, at least in my scenario; the other option is to free them and have them blast Harbinger. If you're interested, my scenario also involves using the Citadel relay to head into dark space, and has the final stage set in the complex where the Reapers were created to begin with.

Oh, and TIM: I wasn't making plans to deal with him yet.

You are missing the point, Xil.  Allow me to clarify:

STORIES GET CONVOLUTED AND BORING WHEN EVERY MAJOR VILLAIN TURNS OUT TO BE AN INNOCENT VICTIM.

[Nerevar-as]

Xilizhra wrote...

Both villains were egotistical blowhards, but for the most part they had the awesome power to back it up (remember, it took an entire fleet to take down Sovereign). Players had already come into conflict with them, and thus there was a previously-established personal connection that Bioware could have exploited. Not being able to confront Harby directly was one of the major letdowns of ME3, and making him a mindless tool as opposed to a self-determining entity was an insult to his character, just as much as lolindoctrination did a serious disservice to TIM and Udina.

I find the idea of the Reapers' "character" itself being an indoctrinated lie to be quite compelling. Hell, what if instead of TIM you had an indoctrination conflict with, it was Harbinger itself? Trying to get Harbinger to escape from the Catalyst's impositions? Or possibly trying to break the entire Reaper fleet away from Harbinger, if Harbinger turned out to be the true mastermind.

Reapers are something close to Legion, the sum of the minds of the people processed to build them. But they clearly are not self-hating woobies but arrogant bastards so they are likely indoctrinated upon upload. Unless we find a Thorian big enough, I´d say destroying them is the only thing to do for the people they once were. It would be interesting to meet a Reaper that somehow reverted to who they were, but I think it would go crazy, considering what they are and have done.

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It wasn't too much for myself or many others. You could still just destroy them all if you wanted, at least in my scenario; the other option is to free them and have them blast Harbinger. If you're interested, my scenario also involves using the Citadel relay to head into dark space, and has the final stage set in the complex where the Reapers were created to begin with.

Oh, and TIM: I wasn't making plans to deal with him yet.

You are missing the point, Xil.  Allow me to clarify:

STORIES GET CONVOLUTED AND BORING WHEN EVERY MAJOR VILLAIN TURNS OUT TO BE AN INNOCENT VICTIM.

Well, you could keep Harbinger as the main villain. And even then, we could use Cerberus as villains who made their own choices, if we remove the indoctrination thing.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
STORIES GET CONVOLUTED AND BORING WHEN EVERY MAJOR VILLAIN TURNS OUT TO BE AN INNOCENT VICTIM.

I disagree with this. Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood did and it was a very gripping anime.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, you could keep Harbinger as the main villain. And even then, we could use Cerberus as villains who made their own choices, if we remove the indoctrination thing.

That would be fine, but I don't see why Harby has to be the mastermind; I'd rather have him be the specific Reaper we get to shoot at.  Frankly, the Reapers are more interesting as a collective who muturally agreed upon the cycles, at least in my opinion.  Each a nation, independent, free of all weakness, and so on and so forth (hey it's that consistency thing again).

[AdmiralCheez]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I disagree with this. Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood did and it was a very gripping anime.

Original anime > Brotherhood.  Now, out of my sight.

PS: Yes, I know Brotherhood follows the manga better, but who cares about that WHEN I CAN ACTUALLY READ THE MANGA I MEAN JEEZ WHAT'S THE POINT?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I disagree with this. Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood did and it was a very gripping anime.

Original anime > Brotherhood.  Now, out of my sight.

PS: Yes, I know Brotherhood follows the manga better, but who cares about that WHEN I CAN ACTUALLY READ THE MANGA I MEAN JEEZ WHAT'S THE POINT?

I actually liked FMA:Brotherhood better than just FMA, but both were great so I can see why you like the other more. I was just pointing out that Brotherhood succeeded in making the Homunculi more victims than villians.
As for why make it if it's a manga, being an anime gives it great music and voicework that adds greatly to the scenes. Do you not watch any anime that's based off a manga, or just FMA: Brotherhood?

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 13 novembre 2012 - 10:25 .

[Nerevar-as]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I disagree with this. Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood did and it was a very gripping anime.

Original anime > Brotherhood.  Now, out of my sight.

PS: Yes, I know Brotherhood follows the manga better, but who cares about that WHEN I CAN ACTUALLY READ THE MANGA I MEAN JEEZ WHAT'S THE POINT?

Can´t talk about FMA, but usually it´s the music, the colors, and all that a different media brings. At least when they follow the pacing of the original and don´t add heavy narrative decompression and lots of filler.

[AdmiralCheez]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I actually liked FMA:Brotherhood better than just FMA, but both were great so I can see why you like the other more. I was just pointing out that Brotherhood succeeded in making the Homunculi more victims than villians.
As for why make it if it's a manga, being an anime gives it great music and voicework that adds greatly to the scenes. Do you not watch any anime that's based off a manga, or just FMA: Brotherhood?

On the Homunculi: The original anime already did a good job of demonstrating their tragic side.  Each was sympathetic to a degree (I cried over Lust at least once, and Greed's death made me actually feel sorry for him).  In addition, their motives and conflicts with each other made them interesting as characters as well as villains.  While they were far from innocent, the atrocities they commited were done either out of desperation (Lust would give anything to become truly alive) or disillusion when it came to treatment by humans (Envy and Wrath come to mind).  They were complex, yet understandable, and I really liked them as characters.  In Brotherhood (or at least the manga--I stopped watching the anime after a certain point because IT WASN'T THE SAME), the entire plot became needlessly convoluted, and I think a lot of this had to do with Hiromu Arakawa wanting to be DIFFERENT from the anime/make the series last as long as possible.  Like seriously, how many volumes claimed to be the final battle again?  Eh, whatever; still my favorite series.

On anime based off manga: While I appreciate the qualities animation brings to a story (and FMA's voice acting, especially the English version, is godly), I think creating a series that exactly follows its source material is a bit on the lazy side (and movies based off books are basically easy money).  When a story revists an old IP, I like to see a fresh take.  Then again, respecting the source material is important.  I guess the preferred balance between freshness and preservation is different from person to person.

BUT ENOUGH OF THIS OFF-TOPIC ROMP.

@Neverar-as: GO WATCH BOTH VERSIONS OF FMA RIGHT NOW THEY ARE SO GOOD OMG I DON'T EVEN

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 13 novembre 2012 - 10:44 .

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, you could keep Harbinger as the main villain. And even then, we could use Cerberus as villains who made their own choices, if we remove the indoctrination thing.

That would be fine, but I don't see why Harby has to be the mastermind; I'd rather have him be the specific Reaper we get to shoot at.  Frankly, the Reapers are more interesting as a collective who muturally agreed upon the cycles, at least in my opinion.  Each a nation, independent, free of all weakness, and so on and so forth (hey it's that consistency thing again).

But they clearly weren't free of all weakness, and I rather like that the final choice could involve freeing them. As for why Harbinger is the mastermind... because you didn't like the Catalyst.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I actually liked FMA:Brotherhood better than just FMA, but both were great so I can see why you like the other more. I was just pointing out that Brotherhood succeeded in making the Homunculi more victims than villians.
As for why make it if it's a manga, being an anime gives it great music and voicework that adds greatly to the scenes. Do you not watch any anime that's based off a manga, or just FMA: Brotherhood?

On the Homunculi: The original anime already did a good job of demonstrating their tragic side.  Each was sympathetic to a degree (I cried over Lust at least once, and Greed's death made me actually feel sorry for him).  In addition, their motives and conflicts with each other made them interesting as characters as well as villains.  While they were far from innocent, the atrocities they commited were done either out of desperation (Lust would give anything to become truly alive) or disillusion when it came to treatment by humans (Envy and Wrath come to mind).  They were complex, yet understandable, and I really liked them as characters.  In Brotherhood (or at least the manga--I stopped watching the anime after a certain point because IT WASN'T THE SAME), the entire plot became needlessly convoluted, and I think a lot of this had to do with Hiromu Arakawa wanting to be DIFFERENT from the anime/make the series last as long as possible.  Like seriously, how many volumes claimed to be the final battle again?  Eh, whatever; still my favorite series.

On anime based off manga: While I appreciate the qualities animation brings to a story (and FMA's voice acting, especially the English version, is godly), I think creating a series that exactly follows its source material is a bit on the lazy side (and movies based off books are basically easy money).  When a story revists an old IP, I like to see a fresh take.  Then again, respecting the source material is important.  I guess the preferred balance between freshness and preservation is different from person to person.

BUT ENOUGH OF THIS OFF-TOPIC ROMP.

I agree with you, especially the bolded bits, but Brotherhood did this as well in a way that clicked better for me for some reason . I felt sad when each homunculus died, especially Greed, and their complexity made them some of my favorite characters in the show.
 Also, I agree on getting back to topic.

[GreyLycanTrope]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

...the only viable solution to overcome differences is to eliminate them? Nice implications there.

AND THUS, WE REACH THE HEART OF THE ISSUE AS TO WHY THE ENDINGS ARE ULTIMATELY STUPID.

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE VALUE OF DIVERSITY AND THE VIRTUE OF WORKING TOGETHER AND UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER DESPITE OUR DIFFERENCES?  GEE, WASN'T THAT A CORE NARRATIVE THEME OR SOMETHING?

OR AM I JUST SUPPOSED TO IGNORE WREX, THE SUICIDE MISSION, AND THE GETH/QUARIAN CONFLICT?

THANK YOU, GOOD SIR OR MADAM NEREVAR, FOR CONSISELY AND ELOQUENTLY STATING ONE OF ME3'S BIGGEST PROBLEMS.

/royal canterlot voice

/shameful MLP:FiM reference

Nice to see I wasn't the only one who thought so. Thought I was going nuttier than usual.

Applepie_Svk wrote...
This reminds me one of the Seival´s zealous threads about how bad differences are... No implication of Godwin´s law here...

HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED. That pic is already a waking nightmare, I do not need a reminder.