98 réponses à ce sujet

[Sable Rhapsody]

Bloody hell, I just wanted the story and ending to fit together at all--I really didn't think it was too much to ask. I honestly wouldn't care which one was changed, though I think it would be easier to change the ending given that the stories of ME1 and ME2 are kind of set at this point.

[RiptideX1090]

A good story's themes and questions are brought to culmination and resolution in the ending. The story and the ending need to fulfill one another. They both have to fit one another to work properly.

The biggest reason ME3's ending fails is because it does not do this. ME3's story was about galactic unity or lack thereof. It was not about synthetics vs organics. While that has always been an underlying theme in ME, it was not the main theme of ME3. The theme of galactic unity gets shoehorned into an EMS score that determines whether or not you destroy, control, or merge with the Reapers to solve the question of synthetics vs organics. This is not a valid resolution to the main theme of ME3, it twists the theme into a score, invalidating it with a dues ex machina to solve a question brought to the front of the story within the last ten minutes.

[Yuoaman]

I would have liked to have all of the plot threads began in Mass Effect 2 to pay off in some way, instead it felt like the writers themselves forgot about them. Haestrom's sun was looking to be a much more important omen than it turned out to be because the writers just turned around and did something entirely different. I would have liked the ending to have suited the story - the synthetics vs. organics was never the main focus of the series until near the very end of ME3, and I don't agree with the way it was handled at all.

[3DandBeyond]

OP,
One of your main premises is totally wrong though as far as how people view this. You think you are sacrificing principles for something good, but many of us do not see the outcomes as possibly good. It is cognitive dissonance at work for us when we see the slide show, because there's just not enough information and logic to conclude that the slides and cutscenes and narration fit with what Shepard is called upon to do. I could see letting go of certain morals and principles myself if it was clearly for the better good, but never for this pile of kudzu.

I could live with the stories contained within ME3 if the endings fit all of that, but I definitely would never want stories created to fit these endings. These endings are in my opinion just atrocious and go contrary to logic. There are no stories that support this. There are stories that were written that support portions of these endings, because these endings came from other stories. But as a whole, nothing could support all of this, especially not since Leviathan was included in the mix-that adds a whole new layer of idiocy and contradiction.

[spirosz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

To take up your comparison, Applepie:

The problem is that you usually don't even start building if you have no plan for the whole house. Regarding ME, the trilogy should've been designed as a trilogy rather than as three simply connected games.

^ and that's where it all comes down to, doesn't it?  It's hard though, from a gaming perspective, hardware updates, new tools with how they would wanna approach things, maybe now they were able to add something in the sequel that they were limited to before, and blah blah.  

Sucks when your left to "speculating" 

[3DandBeyond]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Bloody hell, I just wanted the story and ending to fit together at all--I really didn't think it was too much to ask. I honestly wouldn't care which one was changed, though I think it would be easier to change the ending given that the stories of ME1 and ME2 are kind of set at this point.

That's it exactly.  The endings should have tied up all the loose ends contained within the whole thing, not created new ones.

With the inclusion of Leviathan there's this new illogical contradiction injected into the whole ball of wax.  The Leviathan's thrall races kept creating the killer synthetics, so of course it makes sense to introduce all of that to prop up the endings, after the freaking endings have er, ended.  And further, Leviathans are big things-tell your stupid thralls to stop creating killer synthetics.  Don't double down on the full moron factor by creating a killer AI to be in charge of the killer synthetics. 

[3DandBeyond]

spirosz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

To take up your comparison, Applepie:

The problem is that you usually don't even start building if you have no plan for the whole house. Regarding ME, the trilogy should've been designed as a trilogy rather than as three simply connected games.

^ and that's where it all comes down to, doesn't it?  It's hard though, from a gaming perspective, hardware updates, new tools with how they would wanna approach things, maybe now they were able to add something in the sequel that they were limited to before, and blah blah.  

Sucks when your left to "speculating" 

The problem with the OP's point here is that there have been many fans that explained how the games could be ended.  ME1, 2, and 3 could have been merely 3 connected games (I think they were more than that), but it was up to 3 to bring it all home-get it all tied up together.  Instead of just creating something that made sense and was like, but bigger than the other games' endings, they took a fairly remote plot point that existed on the outside of the major plot and created an ending out of that, then used Leviathan to try and make it make some sense as if it belonged in the story.  Of all of the things they could have chosen to create an ending from, they picked the one that most resonated with people as being the opposite of the problem.  And to top it off, they made the endings be as choices, not actions having consequences, but everything distilled down to one person's choice-the determining factor on the level of survival of the galaxy is one person.  And that person is given less information about what s/he will be doing than we get for nutritional info on the side of packaged food at the grocery store.

How about making the reapers make real sense-if we had to know what they were and why they were, then make them at least follow some logic.  And no choices, not this contrived pile of garbage that is to some the epitome of making a hard choice-for me it's not that hard, since there's no good choice, I see the game as unfinished except by MEEM or MEHEM or head canon.  I choose to ignore the fact that there are choices at all and they had a multitude of ways they could have ended this trilogy and a lot of room within the game in which to finish up the dangling points left from ME1 and 2.  They chose to not write a real ending or a real plot and went for the crucible, slapped together endings from other IPs, and DLC to try and make it fit together.

[Xamufam]

3DandBeyond wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

To take up your comparison, Applepie:

The problem is that you usually don't even start building if you have no plan for the whole house. Regarding ME, the trilogy should've been designed as a trilogy rather than as three simply connected games.

^ and that's where it all comes down to, doesn't it?  It's hard though, from a gaming perspective, hardware updates, new tools with how they would wanna approach things, maybe now they were able to add something in the sequel that they were limited to before, and blah blah.  

Sucks when your left to "speculating" 

The problem with the OP's point here is that there have been many fans that explained how the games could be ended.  ME1, 2, and 3 could have been merely 3 connected games (I think they were more than that), but it was up to 3 to bring it all home-get it all tied up together.  Instead of just creating something that made sense and was like, but bigger than the other games' endings, they took a fairly remote plot point that existed on the outside of the major plot and created an ending out of that, then used Leviathan to try and make it make some sense as if it belonged in the story.  Of all of the things they could have chosen to create an ending from, they picked the one that most resonated with people as being the opposite of the problem.  And to top it off, they made the endings be as choices, not actions having consequences, but everything distilled down to one person's choice-the determining factor on the level of survival of the galaxy is one person.  And that person is given less information about what s/he will be doing than we get for nutritional info on the side of packaged food at the grocery store.

How about making the reapers make real sense-if we had to know what they were and why they were, then make them at least follow some logic.  And no choices, not this contrived pile of garbage that is to some the epitome of making a hard choice-for me it's not that hard, since there's no good choice, I see the game as unfinished except by MEEM or MEHEM or head canon.  I choose to ignore the fact that there are choices at all and they had a multitude of ways they could have ended this trilogy and a lot of room within the game in which to finish up the dangling points left from ME1 and 2.  They chose to not write a real ending or a real plot and went for the crucible, slapped together endings from other IPs, and DLC to try and make it fit together.

This

[Applepie_Svk]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...
This reminds me one of the Seival´s zealous threads about how bad differences are... No implication of Godwin´s law here...

HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED. That pic is already a waking nightmare, I do not need a reminder.

Vold...Seival ?

And also he can´t be banned for some reason

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 14 novembre 2012 - 06:36 .

[Someone With Mass]

I'd prefer a story that makes sense and an ending that isn't completely contrived fecal matter.

[Jadebaby]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

While I do agree that the series could have handled certain aspects better, I would have preferred an ending that matched the already established tone, rather than a total rewrite of the series to preserve CaseyMac's "artistic integrity" wangst. In my opinion, preserving the narrative themes of a long-term project is far more important than any cool ideas you might have at the end. Yeah, it's hard to maintain interest all the way through (and you might have to work really hard to find enough passion to finish and finish well), but those cool ideas are better off being used as the spark that starts your next project.

Anyway, to continue the conversation started in the OP:

(1) I don't mind playing a principled hero. Sometimes, I get a kick out of being so goddamn goody-two-shoes that my own mother would vomit, and compared to the massive gray areas that we all have to experience in real life, a clear good/evil dichotomy can be refreshing. That said, I equally enjoy fiction that embodies a less sugar-coated take on morality, as such fiction has the potential to be far more intellectually stimulating. Bringing real-world problems to light through entertainment can force the audience to question their own ideals, which is very important for personal growth. However, constantly keeping moral decisions at this level can be emotionally exhausting, so it might hinder the audience's enjoyment of the story. My favorite fiction maintains a balance of escapism and realism, resulting in something that keeps my brain active but still makes me happy at the end. I think Mass Effect 1 and 2 (2 especially) did a decent job of this, though your mileage may vary.

(2) I am in complete agreement with the OP. The ending completely invalidated a huge core theme of the trilogy, and that (at least to me) was far more jarring than its overall half-assedness. Again, THEMES ARE IMPORTANT.

(3) I already talked about good/evil/moral ambiguity in point (1). Personally, I preferred the Reapers as an unstoppable Lovecraftian horror, and thus the 180 brought on by the Catalyst especially chapped my ass. However, I think Cerberus is a bigger deal in this department: they went from a fascinatingly morally gray organization to totally vanilla cackling bad guys. I really wish Bioware had shown a little more finesse when it came to writing for TIM and Co. in ME3.

holy crap! I agree on every point and couldn't have worded it better myself!

[Jadebaby]

Troxa wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

To take up your comparison, Applepie:

The problem is that you usually don't even start building if you have no plan for the whole house. Regarding ME, the trilogy should've been designed as a trilogy rather than as three simply connected games.

^ and that's where it all comes down to, doesn't it?  It's hard though, from a gaming perspective, hardware updates, new tools with how they would wanna approach things, maybe now they were able to add something in the sequel that they were limited to before, and blah blah.  

Sucks when your left to "speculating" 

The problem with the OP's point here is that there have been many fans that explained how the games could be ended.  ME1, 2, and 3 could have been merely 3 connected games (I think they were more than that), but it was up to 3 to bring it all home-get it all tied up together.  Instead of just creating something that made sense and was like, but bigger than the other games' endings, they took a fairly remote plot point that existed on the outside of the major plot and created an ending out of that, then used Leviathan to try and make it make some sense as if it belonged in the story.  Of all of the things they could have chosen to create an ending from, they picked the one that most resonated with people as being the opposite of the problem.  And to top it off, they made the endings be as choices, not actions having consequences, but everything distilled down to one person's choice-the determining factor on the level of survival of the galaxy is one person.  And that person is given less information about what s/he will be doing than we get for nutritional info on the side of packaged food at the grocery store.

How about making the reapers make real sense-if we had to know what they were and why they were, then make them at least follow some logic.  And no choices, not this contrived pile of garbage that is to some the epitome of making a hard choice-for me it's not that hard, since there's no good choice, I see the game as unfinished except by MEEM or MEHEM or head canon.  I choose to ignore the fact that there are choices at all and they had a multitude of ways they could have ended this trilogy and a lot of room within the game in which to finish up the dangling points left from ME1 and 2.  They chose to not write a real ending or a real plot and went for the crucible, slapped together endings from other IPs, and DLC to try and make it fit together.

This

That's a fundamental problem with them for me. It ruins any kind of sacrifice and makes them all totally arbitrary.

[DeepChild]

Great read, and great question Ieldra.  

Ieldra2 wrote...
(3) The Reapers were presented as evoking Lovecraftian horrors from the beyond, as "abominations", their minions as "perversions of life". The over-the-top horror we're presented with since ME2, and which ME3 topped yet again, left no doubt that they were intended as "things that should not exist" rather than normal enemies, beings to gun down with impunity and with no regret, and the evidence that pointed in a different direction was well-hidden in hard-to-find conversations. In the ending, we're called to consider them as powerful but normal enemies and give them consideration as valid lifeforms. That results in an emotional dissonance for many players. We may reject that call by choosing Destroy, or distance ourselves from the visceral effect of the presentation and choose Control or Synthesis, but the dissonance remains and makes us feel uncomfortable.

This is what threw me for a loop.  I'd come to greatly enjoy the idea of Reapers as "Lovecraftian horrors...things that shouldn't exist".  The more they were explained, the less I appreciated them even though I appreciated the thoughtful way in which they were created (by the writers).  The [literal interpretation of the] ending left me confused and uncomfortable, as you put it, primarily because the transition of the reapers from unknowable horror to something less (in my mind) was accellerated to breakneck speed and slammed into my face.  The additional exposition in the EC helped a little.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Ad (1): I like that we're called to sacrifice our principles for the sake of a better outcome, and I'd like the story to have reflected this very much earlier and much more often. In fact, that it never did even when it appeared reasonable that it should is one of my main complaints about the trilogy as a whole.

I agree this was a positive and should have been explored more thoroughly in the story, but there were some pretty important instances I can think of.  The first that pops into my head is whether or not to lie to the Krogan to gain Salarian support.  More of this would have been appreciated though.

If I had to choose, I'd rather have an ending that fit the story.

EDIT:  I largely agree with 3DandBeyond.  Also, I apparently need to play Leviathan before commenting further.  Just helped Parasini arrest Anoleis so...gonna be a while.

Modifié par DeepChild, 14 novembre 2012 - 07:58 .

[darthnick427]

Ending that fits the story obviously.

[Peranor]

darthnick427 wrote...

Ending that fits the story obviously.

[SpamBot2000]

Story rocked, ending sucked, conclusion clear.

[dorktainian]

i'd rather have had shep kick star brats asss before nuking the citadel and killing the reapers and himself, than the lame ending we got. at least we'd have some closure that didnt involve someones idea of art.

[Taboo]

And now you understand aesthetics. I'm afraid the stone has started rolling however and it may very well enter free fall when Omega hits.

How does it feel?

[Ieldra]

I have no idea what you're talking about. And it would be rather nice if you stopped gloating.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 novembre 2012 - 09:35 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

While I play the story with a set of principles I lean toward pragmatism in my approach. I hated the endings, and I thought that there were so many holes in the story that didn't make any sense. I felt that BioWare was making up things as they were going along. They had a solid foundation with ME1, but threw the baby out with the bathwater in ME2, even though it was a fun game to play. Plotwise it was shall we say.... lacking. ME3? The faults are glaring. They wouldn't be if the ending had you in a "Fk Yeah!" instead of with your face buried in a half gallon of ice cream at the end. We wouldn't even be looking at them.

We kept finding stuff that made the reapers older and older and older. Then there kept being more and more and more of them. It kept looking more and more impossible to stop them. Vigil said they were vulnerable in Dark Space while they were hibernating. Then Bioware made Arrival which screwed the pooch on that plan. The story was about overcoming impossible odds and coming out smoking a cigar. Bioware really stacked the deck against us, then gave us a reaper off switch with a moral dilemma attached. I really would have preferred a less powerful enemy with no reaper off switch. One where you had to struggle against them the entire game, but in the end you triumphed over, because your side didn't go full retard like it did, and despite the losses you could come out of it victorious, and your ending music could be something more like this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag_c_wNxRJM&NR instead of that music that we got that will forever signify betrayal to me. But alas, I'm a different generation. A generation when victory meant something.

As far as the reapers go, the head reaper boss seems pretty smug about everything. It seems to think its choice was the best thing to do. It is completely authoritarian, my way or your a husk or slushy, basically dead. It's telling Shepard, that this crucible is effective, and it changed it, and it works, but that since we organics were too stupid to explore the Citadel thoroughly and left day to day operations to the keepers all these hundreds and thousands of years we never found it, so it hacked the Crucible on us and put a major stipulation on what the Crucible was supposed to do because Mac put too much time in killing off who would have been a logical choice for a charismatic leader among the Quarians by e-mail, and may have prevented this whole mess.

So basically the Child (who isn't the real catalyst) wants you dead. Come on. Really? You're going to fall for that line? After going through this story you're really going to fall for that? And with your idiot leaders and the dumb asses that follow them you're really going to sacrifice yourself? But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Tali'Zorah has to be one of the weakest characters in the game, and if you got her acquitted they made her an admiral. OMG. She defers everything to Shepard. She doesn't exert any authority whatsoever. They kill of one of the best characters Kal'Reegar who would have been an excellent replacement for Tali's father on the Admiratly Board. This turns Rannoch into a Charlie Foxtrot.

Legion continually goes back on his word about the code, and then there's the infamous "I must go to them". WTF? It's code Legion. And why can't it be scrubbed first to make sure it doesn't make the entire Geth able to be taken over by... dun dun dun.... the Reapers? No, it has to upload right now. Gerrel has to destroy right now. Tali is wringing her hands and has ZERO influence. How much influence with Reegar have had? I think a hell of a lot more, but they killed him off by e-mail.

This whole thing was set up to put you in the horrible choice for Walter's destroy ending. But when does anything in the mass effect universe make sense?

The Illusive Man doesn't make sense either. The Council doesn't make sense. The Alliance Defence Committee doesn't makes sense: bringing Shepard in for a strategy and tactics meeting at the last minute? Don't get me started on these hand wringing bunch of ninnies.

Sacrifice? The game is about sacrifice? Would you sacrifice yourself for these losers? I'm telling you that the longer I look at it, that line that Liara said "you know one ship could really get lost out there" keeps looking better and better. Find a planet off the grid where the reapers aren't going to look and live out your lives.

The story peaks with the retrieval of the Pillars of Strength for the Batarian Priest and goes downhill from there. That is the emotional peak. You receive absolution for all your sins. It doesn't get better.

No. Sorry. MEHEM is the only ending now that makes any sense at all. Thank you MrFob. Thank you Thank you Thank you.

Sorry for my rant. But I'm just ranting today. I'll leave.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 15 novembre 2012 - 09:45 .

[DrGunjah]

ending that fits the story better.
though as far as I am concerned they should rewrite everything that happens after vendetta.