59 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

Lord Aesir wrote...]
No, but it does describe her.  Just as sunshine describe's Bethany's disposition, Rivaini describes Isabella's nationality.  Varric isn't commenting on her skin color.

Perhaps, but it would be rather inaccurate to nickname her "Rivaini" simply because that's where she's from. It implies she identifies with that culture when she doesn't. She would always be Rivaini in racial background, however.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 14 novembre 2012 - 09:38 .

[Todd23]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Varric calls her Rivaini because that is where she is from, not because of her skin color. The same reason he calls Bethany Lady Sunshine because of her personality.

I'm not making the connection between those two examples. Isabela is not "Rivaini" in personality.

No, but it does describe her.  Just as sunshine describe's Bethany's disposition, Rivaini describes Isabella's nationality.  Varric isn't commenting on her skin color.

I'm sure if he said something about her skin clolour she'd just turn back to white and go:  "Now what, ****?"
Varric's expresian: 

[Todd23]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...]
No, but it does describe her.  Just as sunshine describe's Bethany's disposition, Rivaini describes Isabella's nationality.  Varric isn't commenting on her skin color.

Perhaps, but it would be rather inaccurate to nickname her "Rivaini" simply because that's where she's from. It implies she identifies with that culture when she doesn't. She would always be Rivaini in ethnic background, however.

I'm from Utah.  But I've lived in California for so long I act like a Californian and even make fun of Utahns.  But I still introduce my self as a utahn, not because of my race.  But because it'll always be my native land.

[Heimdall]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...]
No, but it does describe her.  Just as sunshine describe's Bethany's disposition, Rivaini describes Isabella's nationality.  Varric isn't commenting on her skin color.

Perhaps, but it would be rather inaccurate to nickname her "Rivaini" simply because that's where she's from. It implies she identifies with that culture when she doesn't. She would always be Rivaini in racial background, however.

Why is it inaccurate?  She is still from Rivain, and so it is accurate to call her Rivaini just as it is accurate to call Hawke a Ferelden.

Part of me suspects Varric knows she isn't crazy about her homeland and just calls her that as playful jibe, though.

[lil yonce]

Todd23 wrote...

I'm from Utah.  But I've lived in California for so long I act like a Californian and even make fun of Utahns.  But I still introduce my self as a utahn, not because of my race.  But because it'll always be my native land.

I think it's a different situation since Utahn doesn't describe race and ethnic background like Rivaini can. It's more similar to being Jewish. Being Jewish can mean ethnicity, nationality, religion, or culture.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 14 novembre 2012 - 09:53 .

[Wulfram]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Part of me suspects Varric knows she isn't crazy about her homeland and just calls her that as playful jibe, though.

Isabela doesn't like Rivain?  I don't remember anything about that..

Her only objection to Hawke giving her a memento of home is that it's a fertility talisman.

Modifié par Wulfram, 14 novembre 2012 - 09:50 .

[Heimdall]

Wulfram wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Part of me suspects Varric knows she isn't crazy about her homeland and just calls her that as playful jibe, though.

Isabela doesn't like Rivain?  I don't remember anything about that..

Her only objection to Hawke giving her a memento of home is that it's a fertility talisman.

In the comic, Those Who Speak, we get flashback of her life and its clear she really hates the way her mother and others submitted to the Qun.  Then again, this seemed to me less a hatred of her homeland than a hatred of the Qunari.

At any rate, it seems that she at least doesn't care about her homeland much one way or the other.

[Wulfram]

Ah right, comics. Haven't read those

Most of Rivain isn't Qunari though, I believe.

[Foolsfolly]

At any rate, it seems that she at least doesn't care about her homeland much one way or the other.

Well it is an entire party of ex-patriots isn't it? You don't run away from a country that you have no beef with.

[Massakkolia]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...]
No, but it does describe her.  Just as sunshine describe's Bethany's disposition, Rivaini describes Isabella's nationality.  Varric isn't commenting on her skin color.

Perhaps, but it would be rather inaccurate to nickname her "Rivaini" simply because that's where she's from. It implies she identifies with that culture when she doesn't. She would always be Rivaini in racial background, however.

I don't want the protagonist's ethnicity to be acknowledged if ethnicity is narrowly interpretted as the colour of your skin. That just doesn't seem to be an issue in Dragon Age universe. I also took Varric's "Rivaini" nickname as a reference to her nationality and not her skin colour. I don't remember Isabela saying she's identifying herself with some other culture. It's where she's from and I haven't noticed "Rivaini" being used as a common word for people of dark complexion. In Dragon Age Rivain is a place, not a colour.

Similarly Hawke was called Fereldan by many people regardless of Hawke's skin colour. "Fereldan" in Kirkwall was often an offensive term but it wasn't tied to skin colour either. In my opinion, more offensive in the context of the universe is to call people just elves, dwarves, shems etc. I definitely want to see a more diverse range of skin colours but that doesn't need to be addressed in any way within the story. 

I would love the game acknowledge the cultural background of my character assuming it can be chosen. Based on David's comment it may not, though I'm not sure whether he was talking about the looks of the character or the nationality. Perhaps the backgrounds are more akin to "slum dweller", "raised in the Chantry", "peasant" and so on. That's ok too, but I'd love to be Fereldan again and it would be nice to have some of my other characters to be from Antiva or Rivain.

Modifié par Ria, 14 novembre 2012 - 10:02 .

[lil yonce]

Lord Aesir wrote...
Why is it inaccurate?  She is still from Rivain, and so it is accurate to call her Rivaini just as it is accurate to call Hawke a Ferelden.

Because it implies an adjacent factor about her character that would be inaccurate. It implies that she identifies with being culturally Rivaini when she doesn't. Hawke doesn't share this issue.

[Heimdall]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Why is it inaccurate?  She is still from Rivain, and so it is accurate to call her Rivaini just as it is accurate to call Hawke a Ferelden.

Because it implies an adjacent factor about her character that would be inaccurate. It implies that she identifies with being culturally Rivaini when she doesn't. Hawke doesn't share this issue.

I don't see the necessity of that implication.  If I visit another country and people refer to me by it occasionally since I'm the only American nationality amongst them, that would be accurate whether I identify myself with American culture or not.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 14 novembre 2012 - 10:12 .

[The Elder King]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
Why is it inaccurate?  She is still from Rivain, and so it is accurate to call her Rivaini just as it is accurate to call Hawke a Ferelden.

Because it implies an adjacent factor about her character that would be inaccurate. It implies that she identifies with being culturally Rivaini when she doesn't. Hawke doesn't share this issue.

You're implying that Hawke identifies himself as culturally Fereldan, which it wasn't shown in DA2, as far as I recall.

Modifié par hhh89, 14 novembre 2012 - 10:11 .

[David Gaider]

Why is how Varric referenced Isabela relevant? Isabela is always dark-skinned. She has a single, set appearance-- unlike the PC-- so we can reference that appearance. We cannot do the same for the PC and are hardly going to contrive ways to start.

[Fast Jimmy]

I may be confused, but I think what the OP is suggesting would be inherently offensive.

If someone came up to me who I had just met and started referencing my skin pigmentation level for no valid reason whatsoever, would this not be completely uncalled for? I guess I'm confused exactly in what context the OP thinks referencing race would play into the story, the character development or the quests.

[Zkyire]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I may be confused, but I think what the OP is suggesting would be inherently offensive.

If someone came up to me who I had just met and started referencing my skin pigmentation level for no valid reason whatsoever, would this not be completely uncalled for? I guess I'm confused exactly in what context the OP thinks referencing race would play into the story, the character development or the quests.

Unusual? Yes.

Uncalled for? No.

[Zkyire]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Will there be a default protagonist of color to represent one of the character backgrounds? Attaching race and references to a built in background could enchance the role-play experience for certain characters.

They already reference your nationality, your sex, your class, and occasionally your personality (from your choices in-game). Isn't that enough?

Don't get me wrong, more identification = more depth, I know, but it's also more work on something that isn't much of an issue (given all the other means your PC is already identified by).

[Nashimura]

Its copied from Hawke to his family, so you have something that recognizes it then applies it to your family.

[Fast Jimmy]

Zkyire wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I may be confused, but I think what the OP is suggesting would be inherently offensive.

If someone came up to me who I had just met and started referencing my skin pigmentation level for no valid reason whatsoever, would this not be completely uncalled for? I guess I'm confused exactly in what context the OP thinks referencing race would play into the story, the character development or the quests.

Unusual? Yes.

Uncalled for? No.

Fair enough. 

I guess my real question is - would it bring value to the story, other than a random nickname/racial epitaph people might say when addressing me? The DA games haven't been like Skyrim, where ambient conversation happens outside of dialogue scenes. So it would strictly be throwaway lines during dialogue. 

I would rather, personally, have the writing team work on more content rather than these little "flavor" references. 

[Taint Master]

Taint Master wrote...

Bioware made Satele Shan half-asian in SWToR.

No one else noticed this?

[lil yonce]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I may be confused, but I think what the OP is suggesting would be inherently offensive.

If someone came up to me who I had just met and started referencing my skin pigmentation level for no valid reason whatsoever, would this not be completely uncalled for? I guess I'm confused exactly in what context the OP thinks referencing race would play into the story, the character development or the quests.

Fair enough. I guess my real question is - would it bring value to the story, other than a random nickname/racial epitaph people might say when addressing me? The DA games haven't been like Skyrim, where ambient conversation happens outside of dialogue scenes. So it would strictly be throwaway lines during dialogue. I would rather, personally, have the writing team work on more content rather than these little "flavor" references.

I think you misunderstand. It's not solely a reference to race I would like included. It would be also include other aspects of an ethnic background that coalesce into a real identity outside of being white [nationality]. It is much more likely that a protagonist of color would have a different frame of reference than a white protagonist of the same nationality because they're plainly different from most Orlesians citizens. The same way elves and dwarves are different from your typical citizen, and they have specialized backgrounds in DA:O.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 14 novembre 2012 - 11:40 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I may be confused, but I think what the OP is suggesting would be inherently offensive.

If someone came up to me who I had just met and started referencing my skin pigmentation level for no valid reason whatsoever, would this not be completely uncalled for? I guess I'm confused exactly in what context the OP thinks referencing race would play into the story, the character development or the quests.

Fair enough. I guess my real question is - would it bring value to the story, other than a random nickname/racial epitaph people might say when addressing me? The DA games haven't been like Skyrim, where ambient conversation happens outside of dialogue scenes. So it would strictly be throwaway lines during dialogue. I would rather, personally, have the writing team work on more content rather than these little "flavor" references.

I think you misunderstand. It's not solely a reference to race I would like included. It would be also include other aspects of an ethnic background that coalesce into a real identity outside of being white [nationality]. It is much more likely that a protagonist of color would have a different frame of reference than a white protagonist of the same nationality because they're plainly different from most Orlesians citizens. The same way elves and dwarves are different from your typical citizen, and they have specialized backgrounds in DA:O.

Fair enough, but if we aren't getting different races, I don't think we will get different ethnicity backgrounds. 

I do see the appeal, but it runs the risk of two things: 1) eating up zots for other customization or normal plot and 2) creating a more set protagonist than we already have.

1 is bad because there are a list of requirements for the game a mile long and putting something like this on the list would bump down many other things. And given how I don't really see how it would do all that much for the actual game (since the devs have stated that the backgrounds will not be playable, that we all will start at the same point in the story) other than just being occassional comments by others or random changes to dialogue by our character, I would hope it would rank low on the list. Not to say it doesn't belong on the list, but I believe it shouldn't take priority over something like, say, endings that make sense.

2 is also bad, because for every way you want to add flavor to your character, it also takes away something you can fill in the blanks for. Many love a blank slate character and hate the voice PC because of the gaps even things like tone add, so added comments by others or even by our own characters run the risk of playing "Bioware's" character, as opposed to our own.

[Chiramu]

Even if choosing background racial traits is superficial we still should be able to choose them. For the role-playing elements of creating a character. It doesn't mean that there should be special story, but if it helps the players feel like they are adding more to their own character it would help with immersion. Taking that out of the players hands disconnects you from the character and the character might as well just be a fixed character like in a Final Fantasy game.

[Fast Jimmy]

Chiramu wrote...

Even if choosing background racial traits is superficial we still should be able to choose them. For the role-playing elements of creating a character. It doesn't mean that there should be special story, but if it helps the players feel like they are adding more to their own character it would help with immersion. Taking that out of the players hands disconnects you from the character and the character might as well just be a fixed character like in a Final Fantasy game.

LOL Contrasting this with a comment you just made in another thread I was looking is kind of funny. Since you state that it is silly choices like names that hold back the writing team. 

I don't disagree (at least not vehmently) with either of your posts, but it comes to the point of saying "what chocies do we tell other players to suck up so things can be written better, and what choices should be acknowledged by the writing team, no matter what?"

Being dark-skinned doesn't inherently mean you are one culture or another. Having a background that says you are from Rivanni does not preclude you from having pale skin, nor does being from Orlais mean you cannot have dark skin. Yet if people were to comment on that skin tone alone, it would be a bit of a disconnect. Similarly, if you are from Rivanni but look like an Orlesian, how would anyone make the comment about your ethnicity? 

This then could go down a road of limiting certain skin tones to certain background choices... and that's just going down a road I don't think Bioware wants to go down.

But I could be totally wrong. Maybe that's what we'll find out come March/April.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Youth4Ever wrote...

An inevitably white Ferelden or Orleasian protagonist is not a good solution to a bigger issue, however.

What bigger issue?