84 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Felya87 wrote...

I still don't get the people who hate so much people who like something different from the only Human character.

When people are like, "Welp I would have liked racial options because I like them" nobody hates it.

Here are some things I do hate:

Felya87 wrote...

It was already said that races where taken away again because of cinematic problem with the races.

When it's worded like this.  It makes it sound like BioWare beat you up and stole your candy, instead of saying their store won't be carrying candy so you wont' get your hopes up that there will be candy.

Felya87 wrote...

The story can be written differently, if really is such a problem to have a different character.

So your response is to have them do something else entirely so you can have racial choice?  Yeah they went a different way.  

I hate it when people decide to accept the explanations from BioWare that reinforce their pre-existing assumptions (BioWare: "It's a lot of work and resource-intensive."  You: "They're cheap/lazy") and not the ones that they either don't see or can't appreciate (BioWare: "It allows us to tell a more focused story with respect to their background."  You: "The story would have worked anyway so this is clearly an excuse.")

Felya87 wrote...

So the "we need Human character to tell the story" is quite an excuse. We have see that in DA2. Is just more simple and less expensive.

I swear everyone who claims DA2 could have worked with an elf or dwarven protagonist either played an entirely different game, or is leaving unsaid the cavaet that they could have "just" written an entirely different story

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 novembre 2012 - 08:05 .

[Sith Grey Warden]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Drasanil wrote...

Let's be honest here, the whole 'it has to be human' thing is most likely bunk, especially given they threw out the same excuse for DA2 where Hawke's personal content was of little or no relevance to the actual over arching plot.

This is a bold-faced lie.

Hawke's personal content was the over-arching plot.

DA2? Overarching plot? What?

But anyway, the main issues of Mage v. Templar, the expedition, and the Qunari invasion wouldn't have played out much differently. As a non-human Hawke wouldn't have been a noble, and might not have been given the same official status as "the Champion" but could have still have been as involved in the plot by virtue of the respect earned by wealth from the expedition and defeating the Arishok.

Back on topic, I very much like the idea of having a half-elf background. It would definitely give us back some of the RPing potential that was lost with race choice.

Modifié par Sith Grey Warden, 16 novembre 2012 - 08:09 .

[upsettingshorts]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

DA2? Overarching plot? What?

You know, the entire premise of the game?

The thing Cassandra was interrogating Varric about?

The substance of Hawke's life and motivations the narrative was supposed to reveal?

That overarching plot?

I get it.  Most people really didn't buy in to, or appreciate what DA2 was doing.  But it did it anyway.  

[Sith Grey Warden]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

David Gaider has commented on the question of ethnicity in another thread, stating that no ethnicity or specific skin colour will be tied in to the character we will be playing. However, I wonder if this means that half-breed backgrounds are completely out of the question? It might mean that nobody ever makes reference to the character's half-breed status, which would be a bit of a shame, but wouldn't necessarily prevent them from having a character with stat bonuses (and possible penalties), IMHO.

I believe Gaider was referring to ethnicity in the sense of Rivaini or Anders or Orlesian, not human vs. half-human. This is likely to avoid real world connotations associated with real races (in the sense of white, black, hispanic, asian, etc.). I don't know any half-elves in real life, so it shouldn't be an issue.

[upsettingshorts]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

This is likely to avoid real world connotations associated with real races (in the sense of white, black, hispanic, asian, etc.).

No, he said why and it wasn't that.

It was because they have no mechanism for tracking skin tone in the character creator and don't intend to ever implement one.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...
DA2? Overarching plot? What?

But anyway, the main issues of Mage v. Templar, the expedition, and the Qunari invasion wouldn't have played out much differently. As a non-human Hawke wouldn't have been a noble, and might not have been given the same official status as "the Champion" but could have still have been as involved in the plot by virtue of the respect earned by wealth from the expedition and defeating the Arishok.

Back on topic, I very much like the idea of having a half-elf background. It would definitely give us back some of the RPing potential that was lost with race choice.

All those things you mentioned would have been 100% different if Hawke had been anyone but Hawke -- and Hawke just happens to be human.  The run from Lothering and meeting with Flemeth, being able to get into Kirkwall at all, Hawke's search for money that led him to meet several of the party members (including the freaking narrator), the importance of Leandra being killed in Act 2, and these are just a few things.  Sure, maybe there COULD HAVE BEEN story arcs invented for a dwarf character or elf character, but the writers wanted to use Hawke to tell this story specifically.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 16 novembre 2012 - 08:23 .

[Drasanil]

Tasmen wrote...

Or as already stated, it has nothing to do with cutting costs and everything to do with the story they wish to tell.  

Race choices were in DAO because they wished to tell a different story. Not having race choices in DA2 or 3 is not taking something away.  It's simply telling a different story.  

Or you know it could just be what I said:

Allan Schumacher wrote...

plnero wrote...

Well, are you going to tell us why you chose not to put other playable races in the game? People are just going to assume that there's no good reason for it you don't at least provide some explanation. 

Opportunity cost.  To add this, and especially to do it well, is not free.  So in order to do it, we'd have to not do something else.

[Heimdall]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

David Gaider has commented on the question of ethnicity in another thread, stating that no ethnicity or specific skin colour will be tied in to the character we will be playing. However, I wonder if this means that half-breed backgrounds are completely out of the question? It might mean that nobody ever makes reference to the character's half-breed status, which would be a bit of a shame, but wouldn't necessarily prevent them from having a character with stat bonuses (and possible penalties), IMHO.

I believe Gaider was referring to ethnicity in the sense of Rivaini or Anders or Orlesian, not human vs. half-human. This is likely to avoid real world connotations associated with real races (in the sense of white, black, hispanic, asian, etc.). I don't know any half-elves in real life, so it shouldn't be an issue.

He also said that checking the character's chosen skin tone for every conversation was technologically impossible for their system at the moment since there was no script flag for it (I hope I said that right...)

[upsettingshorts]

Drasanil wrote...

Tasmen wrote...

Or as already stated, it has nothing to do with cutting costs and everything to do with the story they wish to tell.  

Race choices were in DAO because they wished to tell a different story. Not having race choices in DA2 or 3 is not taking something away.  It's simply telling a different story.  

Or you know it could just be what I said:

Allan Schumacher wrote...

plnero wrote...

Well, are you going to tell us why you chose not to put other playable races in the game? People are just going to assume that there's no good reason for it you don't at least provide some explanation. 

Opportunity cost.  To add this, and especially to do it well, is not free.  So in order to do it, we'd have to not do something else.

These statements are not essentially in contradiction.  Opportunity cost also has an impact on narrative.

"Cutting costs" implies lowering the overal budget in order to make the game more cheaply.

Opportunity cost implies that when you spend resources down one path, it reduces options along others.  

If you want to tell a story that involves a character's family (something with a narrative cost) for instance, you have to balance that by paying for it by restricting racial choice.

There's only X to spend, and if you're trying to spend all of it, you have to prioritize.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 novembre 2012 - 08:52 .

[Patchwork]

ledod wrote...


Wut? Wasn't Alistair's mother a human maid?

Maybe, maybe not.

I prefer the 3 children theory myself but others go for the maid being a lie and his mother's really an elven mage grey warden.

[Karlone123]

That would be a good background choice, "being the son/daughter of an elven maid and a father you never met, you spent most of your time sat the city docks yearning for a greater purpose but you being the product of such a union, you never were a guranteed a life of prominence until you joined the Inquisition". That would be my choice of background of a mixed race.

Modifié par Karlone123, 16 novembre 2012 - 11:30 .

[Han Shot First]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

 (although Alistair wasn't and he's a half-elf)

I must have missed something. Alistair's half-elven?

In the books Maric has a bastard with an Elf.

This has lead to some speculation that the bastard in question is Alistair. Personally, I'm unconvinced. I just think it is another bastard. Royals and nobles aren't limited to just one after all.

[Orian Tabris]

Half-breeds... Half-Desire Demon, anyone?

<3<3:wub:<3<3

[silentassassin264]

Han Shot First wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

 (although Alistair wasn't and he's a half-elf)

I must have missed something. Alistair's half-elven?

In the books Maric has a bastard with an Elf.

This has lead to some speculation that the bastard in question is Alistair. Personally, I'm unconvinced. I just think it is another bastard. Royals and nobles aren't limited to just one after all.

It is a horrible theory.   Goldana is his sister and their mom was a serving girl not some grey warden elf.  Unless you want to go all conspiracy theory that somehow Maric ended up with said elf child and had the child replace some other woman he slept with child to make some convoluted tale, it really makes no sense.

[Han Shot First]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

 (although Alistair wasn't and he's a half-elf)

I must have missed something. Alistair's half-elven?

In the books Maric has a bastard with an Elf.

This has lead to some speculation that the bastard in question is Alistair. Personally, I'm unconvinced. I just think it is another bastard. Royals and nobles aren't limited to just one after all.

It is a horrible theory.   Goldana is his sister and their mom was a serving girl not some grey warden elf.  Unless you want to go all conspiracy theory that somehow Maric ended up with said elf child and had the child replace some other woman he slept with child to make some convoluted tale, it really makes no sense.

Pretty much.

If Alistair turned out to be the bastard Maric fathered with Fiona, there would have to be explanation as to why the charade of the serving girl and Goldana posing as his family. It doesn't make much sense. The simpler (and more likely, IMO) explanation is just that Maric had a problem keeping it in his royal trousers, and fathered multiple bastards with different women.

Maybe he is Ferelden's King Robert Baratheon or King Aegon IV.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 17 novembre 2012 - 05:17 .

[Doctoglethorpe]

Except they explained right in the book that Fiona specifically didn't want anybody to know her son was half-elf. They say right in the book they are going to come up with a lie to cover his identity, that they will take advantage of his human appearence to make everyone think he is pure human. Send him off somewhere safe with said lie. And perhaps most importantly, that Duncan would watch over him like in an Obi-wan situation. So of course it makes perfect sense that when they sent him off they wouldn't tell their conspirators his true identity. Duh. And what does Duncan do? Yeah...

It all syncs up perfectly with Alistair. They don't outright say it for two reasons I think, 1 leave it open to be changed later if they feel like it, and 2 because i'm not sure at the time Gaider was already planing on making King Alistair canon so they needed a waqy to be sure that wouldn't matter at the time. Book was written a few years ago after all. But now that he is canon, and Fiona has been made so important as well, it seems doubly obvious.

Look, its of course possible that its not true. But the chances that Gaider would bother trying so hard to trick readers into thinking Alistair might be half-elf is just silly. Why would he put so much emphasis on making Fiona's son sound exactly like Alistar right down to the description of his damn hair color just to later say "gotcha, its a third son!" thats just stupid. Thats not the kind of writer Gaider is.

Honestly, have you guys even read the book? If not just read the epilogue, its all covered there. Theres too much emphasis on making the child sound exactly like Alistar for it to not be true. Again, I think the only reason why he didn't outright say it was because they were still figuring out how to handle canon continuity at the time it was written and wanted to leave it just open enough to wiggle out of if the need arose.

[silentassassin264]

No I haven't read the book and no I am not going to read the book because I honestly don't give a care what is in the book. I like my literature to stay in my medium, my videogame narratives to stay in one medium, and my movies/tv shows etc. to stay in one medium. If you cross over it is discon'd in my book.

And as far as having a third son, maybe because you know, Alistair could die along with Cailan and Gaider wanted a backup Theirin? Not that it matters.

[Han Shot First]

Alistair might turn out to be Fiona's son, at the moment though I'm not sold on that particular theory.

IMO it still makes more sense to just have Fiona's child be another bastard. While she has plenty of motivation for keeping the child's identity secret, what motivation would the serving girl have for going along with it? She'd have to bear the indignity of being seen as Maric's wh0re, fathering a child with a man who was not her husband, despite that not being the case and with nothing to show for it. Not only that but she was poor, and he'd be just another mouth to feed. And that poverty is another reason why I'm not sold on Alistair being Fiona's son. I could perhaps see the serving girl agreeing to it if there was payment, but Goldanna (Alistair's sister and the serving girl's legitimate daughter) was living in little more than a shack.

As for the hair, I don't really see that as being all that convicing for the Alistair-is-Fiona's-Bastard Theory. All the Theirins seem to have a similar appearance. IIRC I believe Anora even remarks that Alistair resembles Cailan.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 17 novembre 2012 - 07:09 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Han Shot First wrote...

Alistair might turn out to be Fiona's son, at the moment though I'm not sold on that particular theory.

IMO it still makes more sense to just have Fiona's child be another bastard. While she has plenty of motivation for keeping the child's identity secret, what motivation would the serving girl have for going along with it? She'd have to bear the indignity of being seen as Maric's wh0re, fathering a child with a man who was not her husband, despite that not being the case and with nothing to show for it. Not only that but she was poor, and he'd be just another mouth to feed. And that poverty is another reason why I'm not sold on Alistair being Fiona's son. I could perhaps see the serving girl agreeing to it if there was payment, but Goldanna (Alistair's sister and the serving girl's legitimate daughter) was living in little more than a shack.

As for the hair, I don't really see that as being all that convicing for the Alistair-is-Fiona's-Bastard Theory. All the Theirins seem to have a similar appearance. IIRC I believe Anora even remarks that Alistair resembles Cailan.

Perhaps you didn't notice that the 'serving girl' is dead, as was Alistair's mother? Goldanna's mother died in childbirth; that doesn't mean the child she gave birth to was Alistair, or that they asked her if she'd care if they pretended a royal bastard was her baby.  Frankly, your 'reasoning' supports no one.   You don't seem to have paid attention to Alistair's upbringing, either: he wasn't raised as a 'royal bastard' or by his 'mother', he was raised by Arl Eamon, in more-or-less a servant role.  He slept with the dogs. 

And Goldanna is still living in a shack.  Unless you're suggesting that Maric isn't actually Alistair's father, it doesn't matter who his mother is with respect to Goldanna's financial situation.  Frankly, wouldn't they be more likely to support her if she actually was the bastard prince's half sister, and not just the daughter of the conveniently dead woman who gave birth to a stillborn child at the right time?

[Han Shot First]

I'm aware that the serving girl died at Alistair's birth.

The point is that if she wasn't Alistair's mother, she would had to have agreed to take part in the charade before she died. After all Goldanna, the woman's legitimate daughter, truly believes that Alistair is her brother and that her mother died birthing him. Assuming for a moment that Alistair is Fiona's child, the serving would had to have faked a pregnancy for nine months. How do you manage to fake a pregnancy to the point where your own family thinks you died birthing the child?

And what benefit did the serving girl get out of it? Since Goldanna was living in a shack, it obviously wasn't money. The financial situation of the serving girl's family does matter  when searching for a motive for why the serving girl would go along with the plot. An escape from poverty would seem the most likely motive for bearing the shame of being seen as the king's wh0re, even though that child is not hers. The problem however is that her family did not escape poverty. So what did she get out of it?

In my opinion the Fiona theory is too complicated and has too many holes in it at the moment to be true. The simpler and more likely explanation from my perspective, is that Maric fathered multiple bastards and the serving girl really was Alistair's mother.

If the writers were to canonize the Fiona theory they'd have to devote some time to plugging in the holes to make the serving girl's motives for taking part in the plot appear plausible. As of right now, it seems too far fetched.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 17 novembre 2012 - 04:51 .

[xsdob]

Half-elf apostate whose about to be tranquiled. Right before they do it, boom, big attack and you end up saving the chantry or something like that.

Your than given pardon to act as an inquisitor on some unknown persons behest, though with a most distrustful attitude from your superiors.

Hows that?

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

xsdob wrote...

Half-elf apostate whose about to be tranquiled. Right before they do it, boom, big attack and you end up saving the chantry or something like that.

Your than given pardon to act as an inquisitor on some unknown persons behest, though with a most distrustful attitude from your superiors.

Hows that?

Very specific to the mage class. If I didn't know any better, I'd say that sounded an awful lot like an Origin.

It works fine as a way of getting the ball rolling and involving the PC, but it also assumes that the Inquisition is an organization to which the protagonist belongs and that our character holds the title of Inquisitor. There still isn't enough info available to us to make that sort of assumption.

[Sith Grey Warden]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Sith Grey Warden wrote...
DA2? Overarching plot? What?

But anyway, the main issues of Mage v. Templar, the expedition, and the Qunari invasion wouldn't have played out much differently. As a non-human Hawke wouldn't have been a noble, and might not have been given the same official status as "the Champion" but could have still have been as involved in the plot by virtue of the respect earned by wealth from the expedition and defeating the Arishok.

Back on topic, I very much like the idea of having a half-elf background. It would definitely give us back some of the RPing potential that was lost with race choice.

All those things you mentioned would have been 100% different if Hawke had been anyone but Hawke -- and Hawke just happens to be human.  The run from Lothering and meeting with Flemeth, being able to get into Kirkwall at all, Hawke's search for money that led him to meet several of the party members (including the freaking narrator), the importance of Leandra being killed in Act 2, and these are just a few things.  Sure, maybe there COULD HAVE BEEN story arcs invented for a dwarf character or elf character, but the writers wanted to use Hawke to tell this story specifically.

I was talking about the main plot of each of the three acts. What "I mentioned" is not what you then went on to talk about as you're talking about events that were more personal to Hawke, but let's look at those.

1. The run from Lothering. Is it impossible to imagine a family of elves or dwarves living in Lothering? We see one family of elven refugees in Lothering in DAO. Dwarves don't seem to be heavily restricted in where they can live in Ferelden, so why couldn't Hawke here be a dwarf or an elf? As for Flemeth, she would have taken the same interest in an elf or dwarf, as she does take such an interest in the Warden regardless of race. It's killing the ogre, not being human, that draws her attention.


2. Getting into Kirkwall. This is based around having family in Kirkwall. Even if said family was not nobility, it still makes sense for an Elf Hawke or Dwarf Hawke to take refuge where they have some sort of family that can help them in hard times. Gamlen's supposed status in the city turns out to have been squandered over the years, and it's only because the guard you talk to happens to know Gamlen, not because Gamlen's an ex-noble, that Hawke gets the opportunity to enter the city. Is it impossible to imagine an elf having connections to the criminal underworld that can get Hawke the job needed to enter the city?

3. Getting money to pay for the expedition. The reason why you need the money is because you have to bribe the Templars because either Hawke or Bethany is a mage. This could be the case just as easily for elves. Admittedly, this doesn't work for dwarves. Instead, you make a small number of dialogue substitutions and voila, it's the Carta out to get them for some trouble with their 6th cousins in Kal Sharok, and you have to bribe the local Carta leader.

4. Leandra being killed in Act 2. Is this really an essential part of the DA2 story? How would anything have been substantially different if Leandra had still been alive in Act 3? Besides, all you need to do is make a slight modification to the killer's motive: instead of needing a face for his zombie wife, he just needs the eyes. (Oh wait, elven eyes are too big now thanks to the graphical shift; fine, he needs her heart, or maybe her brain)