319 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

Arctican wrote...

SS specced with Armor Damage on Sword mastery does insane damage vs boss armor. With the new Omniblade on the Piranha and certain equipments, you're doing thousands of damage per hit. I don't see how that is mediorce.

Geth
-kills pretty much everything in one hit except Primes. Shoot shields and get your teammates to distract him. If not, unload with TC+Piranha

Reapers
-SS brutes when they are charging
-SS ravagers once you break their sacs
-SS banshees when they are teleporting and not targeting you
-one shots everything else

Cerberus
-can one shot every units, even Phantoms if specced right.
-use heavy melee on Atlas from behind. Heavy melee does about the same damage as SS.

Collectors
-use gun or heavy melee on abominations
-SS troopers and captains in one hit
-SS scion, dodge away, unload gun, SS when the scion starts to shoot again, unload gun, repeat until dead
-Use gun on prat's barriers and SS when it's busy on someone else and hasn't begin any of its melee 

You are right, the damage itself isn't mediocre, it is the application and how situational it is, which lowers the overall damage potential relative to every other infiltrator.  Here are some observations:

Basically every other infiltrator can one-shot every Geth unit save the Prime... and several others are debuffing the Prime and getting headshot damage with weapons that also do thousands of damage.

Cerberus has the only top tier unit you are one-shotting.  And you can't even SS an Atlas in the current state of the game.  Compare running up and meleeing the Atlas to shooting it with every other infiltrator (especially with some penetration).  Or compare to Charge into Melee.

Again for Reapers, trash mobs are not in debate here, it is the higher tier.  I can use any other infiltrator efficiently versus a Brute when he is not charging.  I can get better damage versus Banshees (and stop them from hopping) by using any of the other infiltrators.

Collectors is nearly the same story.  Situational on Praetorians, adequate versus Scions.

The above is also ignoring the fun quirks of SS, which do not affect simple powers like cloak or guns.

[Arctican]

Air Quotes wrote...

Arctican wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Arctican wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Arctican wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

ES is for n00b slashtards who can't play.

That is if all they do is spam ES. I put 3 ranks into ES to be able to detonate my teammate's power among other things. It's simply another arsenal for the shadow to use at the right moment. Plus, it has far more utility than just an extra 10% weapon damage.

I have 3 points in too. But it's too slow to be useful for CC for her main job - melee and SS. 

There are moments when it is better to use the three ranks of ES, such as when you see a Paladin snap freeze a group of enemies. A electric slash to produce multiple cryo explosion is faster than killing mooks one by one.

ES has it's uses, but again, leaves you open, the animation is very long and it takes you out of cover if you were in it. 

A Phase Disruptor or some other quick CC power would be 10x better. 

Again, using ES comes down to knowing when you should use it. Obviously not in the open if the enemies aren't staggered and are shooting at you. Certainly, it's limited in its uses, which is why ES only gets 3 ranks instead of 6. I'm just saying I'd put the ranks into ES because it is more useful than the 10% extra damage. Doing that makes her a better teamplayer. Other CC powers may be better, but she doesn't need it.

You said ES is situational and slow. So why have it if you could have a power that directly supplements SS and melee? You know - things that use and should use the most as a Shadow? 

A quick CC power would make cheating enemies less obnoxious and annoying and that cheating would kinda become a fair mechanic, because you now have ways to counter it effectively. 

I'm wouldn;t be against it. I imagine overload would be a nice power to have. However, so far, we never had a balance change or a patch that replaced a character's powerset, so that's probably not a likely solution. Also giving her a DR or immunity would make her easier to play, but in my opinion, she is a fine character already. I don't have problems with her at all on Gold and I imagine I'm not the only one either. She's not in a dire need of a buff/fix over other things like the Disciple.

[Arctican]

capn233 wrote...

Arctican wrote...

SS specced with Armor Damage on Sword mastery does insane damage vs boss armor. With the new Omniblade on the Piranha and certain equipments, you're doing thousands of damage per hit. I don't see how that is mediorce.

Geth
-kills pretty much everything in one hit except Primes. Shoot shields and get your teammates to distract him. If not, unload with TC+Piranha

Reapers
-SS brutes when they are charging
-SS ravagers once you break their sacs
-SS banshees when they are teleporting and not targeting you
-one shots everything else

Cerberus
-can one shot every units, even Phantoms if specced right.
-use heavy melee on Atlas from behind. Heavy melee does about the same damage as SS.

Collectors
-use gun or heavy melee on abominations
-SS troopers and captains in one hit
-SS scion, dodge away, unload gun, SS when the scion starts to shoot again, unload gun, repeat until dead
-Use gun on prat's barriers and SS when it's busy on someone else and hasn't begin any of its melee 

You are right, the damage itself isn't mediocre, it is the application and how situational it is, which lowers the overall damage potential relative to every other infiltrator.  Here are some observations:

Basically every other infiltrator can one-shot every Geth unit save the Prime... and several others are debuffing the Prime and getting headshot damage with weapons that also do thousands of damage.

Cerberus has the only top tier unit you are one-shotting.  And you can't even SS an Atlas in the current state of the game.  Compare running up and meleeing the Atlas to shooting it with every other infiltrator (especially with some penetration).  Or compare to Charge into Melee.

Again for Reapers, trash mobs are not in debate here, it is the higher tier.  I can use any other infiltrator efficiently versus a Brute when he is not charging.  I can get better damage versus Banshees (and stop them from hopping) by using any of the other infiltrators.

Collectors is nearly the same story.  Situational on Praetorians, adequate versus Scions.

The above is also ignoring the fun quirks of SS, which do not affect simple powers like cloak or guns.

That's a fair assessment. However, at the end of day, she still is an infiltrator,so thus can still utilize TC-shotgun to compensate for the times that she is not using SS/heavy melee. Other infiltrators may do more damage in this department, but it;s not so much more that the Shadow lags behind severely in killing potential. Using SS solely is gimping her and that's not how she should be played if she is to keep up with other infiltrators.

Modifié par Arctican, 16 novembre 2012 - 07:29 .

[Gr1zz Dawg]

I don't agree with the argument of making her like other infiltrators. She is the only melee oriented infiltrator and at that she is very good. Her SS is extremely devastating, even considering the drawbacks.

As for ES, the wind up may be long, but so is the wind up for Smash, BS, Supply Pylon, Batarian Melee and even Recon Mine. The common denominator for all of the powers is that they are all extremely, uneblievable powerful or useful. If ES had the power it currently has, coupled with the spammability of Phase Disruptor, she would be astronomically OP. ES does take you out of stooping cover, but it passes through walls...and enemies...and destroys shields...and sets off TB (which she can create if you evolve SS and TC accordingly).

With a talon in hand, or a wraith, the Shadow can massacre the enemy. I've solo'ed with her already. She is tricky and squishy and her attacks require strategy and situation...but trust me, if you nurse her, and get atuned to her characteristics...she's a mean ****.

inb4acharactershouldn'trequirelenghtylearningcurve

[Tallgeese_VII]

Air Quotes wrote...

Gr1zz Dawg wrote...

I don't agree with the argument of making her like other infiltrators. She is the only melee oriented infiltrator and at that she is very good. Her SS is extremely devastating, even considering the drawbacks.

As for ES, the wind up may be long, but so is the wind up for Smash, BS, Supply Pylon, Batarian Melee and even Recon Mine. The common denominator for all of the powers is that they are all extremely, uneblievable powerful or useful. If ES had the power it currently has, coupled with the spammability of Phase Disruptor, she would be astronomically OP. ES does take you out of stooping cover, but it passes through walls...and enemies...and destroys shields...and sets off TB (which she can create if you evolve SS and TC accordingly).

With a talon in hand, or a wraith, the Shadow can massacre the enemy. I've solo'ed with her already. She is tricky and squishy and her attacks require strategy and situation...but trust me, if you nurse her, and get atuned to her characteristics...she's a mean ****.

inb4acharactershouldn'trequirelenghtylearningcurve

I don't want her to be like other Infiltrators. I want her to be especially good at CQC and melee. But she's really not with all the Cloak, SS glitches and slow speed. 

I see my Krogans to be Expressive Face slappers, while I see my shadow as silent back stabber.
I don`t think it is necessary for Shadow to be very CQC specialized as we cannot expect her to survive enemies as Krogans & Batarians do.

I don`t know about her speed, as I never had problem with how fast she m oves through the map and avoid enemies.
There are a lot of problems with SS, but the power can only be so perfect and there must be some kind of drawback.

I agree that it will be nice for her to have some kind of damage resistance for heavy melee and fix the SS mechanism that causes the enemy to melee us back..
but as a player plays shadow more often and understand both how Tactical Cloak & Enemy targetting works the problem can be minimized.

There are quite some options available in SS skill tree to make more defense than offensive.
Uitilizing this option may not be the bad thing for those who suffer from tricky SS.

[MuKen]

Air Quotes wrote...

What i REALLY want I for her to have a QUICK CC power to stagger enemies with to set up SS and melee or sto escape AFTER SS or Melee. Because SS is like Biotic Sharge. You Charge a group, everyone is aware of you, but - you get your shields back, you stagger 3 targets, the camera doesn't shift to your back and you don't turn your back to enemies, you deal damage and you can shoot, dodge or throw grenades INSTANTLY. 

A cc power would not help you escape after SS since you are on cooldown.  As for helping to set things up, ES would to this great if it had faster CD like it used to and/or faster startup.  I would support this and have in fact suggested it multiple times in the past, but the devs don't seem to support it.

[MuKen]

Air Quotes wrote...

A CC power like Phase Disruptor doesn't have a cooldown. So you pay for it with say 20% of your shields per use. But that would improve your DPS and survivability dramatically. 

They don't do balance changes that involve changing a kit's powers.  In fact, there's a reasonable chance they won't do many more changes that involve patching at all anymore.  If you're going to request balance changes you are best sticking to things that can be done in the config file they adjust for weekly updates.  ES changes like I suggested can be done by swapping a few lines on that file alone.

[MuKen]

Air Quotes wrote...

But that's the problem. Thay CAN'T do ANYHING without a patch. And they will HAVE to at least patch the Atlas SS bug. So why not improve the Shadow abit at the same time? 

They can make ES changes without a patch, that's what they do every week, the nerf in the first place was done without a patch.

[HiGamerCAT]

Air Quotes wrote...

MuKen wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

A CC power like Phase Disruptor doesn't have a cooldown. So you pay for it with say 20% of your shields per use. But that would improve your DPS and survivability dramatically. 

They don't do balance changes that involve changing a kit's powers.  In fact, there's a reasonable chance they won't do many more changes that involve patching at all anymore.  If you're going to request balance changes you are best sticking to things that can be done in the config file they adjust for weekly updates.  ES changes like I suggested can be done by swapping a few lines on that file alone.

But that's the problem. Thay CAN'T do ANYHING without a patch. And they will HAVE to at least patch the Atlas SS bug. So why not improve the Shadow abit at the same time? 

I'd just be happy with some immunity during SS or sensible DR during SS or something like that to protect myself against cheating AI.... I wonder if it'll ever be done though

[cgj]

actually GI is better at CC and melee than the shadow
well that's the GI after all

Modifié par cgj, 16 novembre 2012 - 09:44 .

[MuKen]

Air Quotes wrote...

Faster ES would just create more slashtards who hide behind walls and spam ES all game. 

The changes I suggested addressed that.  I had a rather long and detailed analysis, but I'll paste just the relevant part here:

 I propose instead the following adjustment to the Electric Slash skill

Base cooldown to 7 seconds, as opposed to the 5 prior or the 8 now.
Base damage reduced from 550 to 275.
Base range reduced from 20m to 8m.
Base radius reduced from 2m to 1m.
Evolution 4 damage bonus increased to 50%.
Evolution 4 radius bonus increased to 200%.
Evolution 5 recharge bonus increased to 200%.
Evolution 6 damage bonus increased to 200%.
Evolution 6 range bonus increased to 300%.

So what does this do? Basically, the cooldown is slightly improved from its current state, and with the right evolution and gear loadout, you can put it at roughly the same cooldown it originally had with that evolution. In return, the damage, range, and radius are drastically weakened, but also all can be improved back to close to their original evolved values if you pick the appropriate evolutions (assuming cloak for damage).

So basically, you restore a reason to use the cloak cancelling style, ES will cooldown slightly faster than SS, and if you are willing to devote the points to evolving it, can get the original fast cooldowns.

At the same time, you truly nerf wall spamming. There is no way to evolve the electric slash so it does damage at a range and radius that will be effective through walls. Instead, players have to make a tough and interesting choice: Do they spec for range and radius, using it as a simple crowd control tool that doesn't do much damage? Or do they spec for damage, allowing them to bring serious pain to a much smaller area (and in doing so reduce the size of the wave and making it much less likely to annoy their teammates). Or they can just put in the simple 3 points into the skill and get a slightly faster cloak cooldown out of the bargain.

This alternative nerf results in much more interesting gameplay, solves the actual problem this skill was creating, and would make a lot of Shadow players of the original style very happy.

[MuKen]

It's a buff to people playing the Shadow the way they wanted her to be played. I'm sorry your ES spamming style would suffer.