Yes, this is yet another "Oh no, Morrigan's left me!" thread, but I'm hoping it won't devolve into the pointless rage I've seen in a couple of other forums. And anyway, I've been having some serious thoughts on the matter... I'm sure we were all acutely aware, at some point, of the fact that, however high our magic approval number was with her, Morrigan was still the NPC we knew least about. For all we know, she may have actually loved the Warden(if you went down that path), and been uncertain of her feelings, having never experienced love before. She might, as the Epilogue says, be regretting it, giving the whole ending a bittersweet tinge.
Or she could have merely been manipulating us. She says, during a conversation, that all men are willing to believe that a woman is weak, and that she finds him attractive. Well, she comes across as a complete emotional wreck once you get to know her (she only really parrots what Flemeth taught her in the Wilds, and can't seem to come to terms with love and kindness), and, if you're playing the "good guy", you'll try and repair the damage (much good it does you). You grow closer, and eventually trust her enough to rest the future on her unborn child, whom you/Alistair/Loghaine produced, taking in the soul of an Elder God from the Archdemon.
All this seems like a vague, formless possibility, though... until you read the codex entry on Dragon Cults. Morrigan implies early on that you have to interact with/be near a creature for some time before you can shapeshift into it... Well, Flemeth does become a dragon during the fight with her, which shows that she, and possibly Morrigan, used to be in close proximity to them. Let me rephrase this, so it sinks in. Flemeth and Morrigan may have worshipped the impossible powerful, scaly nightmares that you have to face down in DA. Also, both Morrigan and Flemeth have similar eye-colours, and it is mentioned that cult members may change physically. And Morrigan mentioning that her child will be human for one night? I have the strange feeling that you, or another Warden, is the lucky father of the sequel's big, hungry, scaly monster. And, well, considering the God is already in its body, and it possesses the taint, then if the child does turn out to be a dragon, you've just
saved the Darkspawn the trouble of tracking down their God first, and created a sort of insta-Blight.
To be honest, we didn't consider any of these things (at least, I didn't) because we wanted to trust Morrigan, to believe that our openness with her would lead to her being open with us. It's human nature, and, sadly, not true most of the time. It certainly wasn't in this case, and I have the feeling that my Warden's attempt to save his life and Ferelden has not only lost him the woman he loves, but will have some turbulent consequences for Ferelden too.
For a more in-depth look at the Dark Ritual ending (much, much more in-depth), check this out. I didn't write it, but was happy to see that the writer shared many of my hopes and suspicions.
Personally, I'm hoping that she actually was uncertain of her feelings towards you, and that her time with an obnoxiously good Warden has weakened her resolve in raising another little monster. I get the feeling that most paths that stem from this will end badly, but I'd like another shot at attempting to make her a bit more human. Hell, it's worth a try. It'll be a bit of an... awkward meeting if my suspicions prove to be true, though...
What about you, O Community? Any thoughts about Morrigan's ritual, Flemeth or anything related? Oh, and while I don't particularly like people raging about how Morrigan left, it can be funny, so go ahead.
Thoughts on Dark Rituals
Débuté par
TSamee
, janv. 03 2010 05:53
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#2
Posté 03 janvier 2010 - 06:07
tallon1982
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My only issue with the whole Dragon Cult thing is wouldn't Morrigan disapprove of what you do in Haven? I've taken her in there a few times and never got any indication that she disapproves of your actions there especially when I kill the High Dragon. One could argue she doesn't do so to hide her motives but I don't buy that. She openly disapproves of helping others or killing Jowan if you elect to do so in her presence.
The Dark Ritual...I'm not sure the full intent Morrigan has with it but I do believe she feels regret for her actions and does consider you a friend. I played a female warden in most of my playthroughs because I am a girl. When I rejected her offer as my mage Morrigan seems to appear sad for you. Sure she could be pissed she didn't get her god child but everyone is open to their interpretations on the matter. I mean why would she feel regret if you play the male warden that romances her? I think once she is exposed to the real world she realizes it's much more than Flemeth told her. She's been an isolated girl for all her life aside from her occasional ventures to the village and even then she tended to hide as an animal.
To me Morrigan reacts like an abused child. Once you bring her into the group and show her actual concern which she's never had she's not sure how to react. Her first reaction is to push you away but as you persist to know her better she opens up to a point. Not everyone is willing to gush their life story or their darkest secrets to anyone.
The Dark Ritual...I'm not sure the full intent Morrigan has with it but I do believe she feels regret for her actions and does consider you a friend. I played a female warden in most of my playthroughs because I am a girl. When I rejected her offer as my mage Morrigan seems to appear sad for you. Sure she could be pissed she didn't get her god child but everyone is open to their interpretations on the matter. I mean why would she feel regret if you play the male warden that romances her? I think once she is exposed to the real world she realizes it's much more than Flemeth told her. She's been an isolated girl for all her life aside from her occasional ventures to the village and even then she tended to hide as an animal.
To me Morrigan reacts like an abused child. Once you bring her into the group and show her actual concern which she's never had she's not sure how to react. Her first reaction is to push you away but as you persist to know her better she opens up to a point. Not everyone is willing to gush their life story or their darkest secrets to anyone.
#3
Posté 03 janvier 2010 - 06:15
EnchantedEyes1
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tallon1982 wrote...
My only issue with the whole Dragon Cult thing is wouldn't Morrigan disapprove of what you do in Haven? I've taken her in there a few times and never got any indication that she disapproves of your actions there especially when I kill the High Dragon. One could argue she doesn't do so to hide her motives but I don't buy that. She openly disapproves of helping others or killing Jowan if you elect to do so in her presence.
The Dark Ritual...I'm not sure the full intent Morrigan has with it but I do believe she feels regret for her actions and does consider you a friend. I played a female warden in most of my playthroughs because I am a girl. When I rejected her offer as my mage Morrigan seems to appear sad for you. Sure she could be pissed she didn't get her god child but everyone is open to their interpretations on the matter. I mean why would she feel regret if you play the male warden that romances her? I think once she is exposed to the real world she realizes it's much more than Flemeth told her. She's been an isolated girl for all her life aside from her occasional ventures to the village and even then she tended to hide as an animal.
To me Morrigan reacts like an abused child. Once you bring her into the group and show her actual concern which she's never had she's not sure how to react. Her first reaction is to push you away but as you persist to know her better she opens up to a point. Not everyone is willing to gush their life story or their darkest secrets to anyone.
I like and agree with your assesment of Morrigan's behavior/personality. I always play a female human (no imagination I guess
and through our convos Morrigan seems wistful at times at not having had a "normal" life. When she talks about the mirror she stole and what Flemeth did and when she asks about my own mom she displays sadness before she catches herself. The face she made when I said that I loved my mother made my heart drop. I think she is one of the most interesting characters to me besides Zevran. Both are products of rather nasty environments and I can't help being immensely drawn to them.
#4
Posté 03 janvier 2010 - 06:30
TSamee
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Well, thank god for that, I needed some reassurance...
To be honest, I'm really hoping for the same, but I do believe that she and Flemeth are playing a larger game here, and that I've played right into it. Whether Morrigan has found that she actually ended up loving my Warden and regretted it, or whether she was having doubts ever since I challenged her views and loves the Warden but was afraid of Flemeth (she's much more powerful than the battle suggests, as Morrigan seems to doubt that she's dead), I have no idea. Still, I really do hope that she ended up becoming just a little bit more human towards the end, as it'll make it a bit easier when convincing her to come and join me in slaying our army-crushing, blood-drinking child.
And tallon, I completely agree with the whole "abused child" comparison, that's why I'm hoping that my Warden opened her eyes a bit and she's found whatever she and Flemeth may have planned, there's more to the world that what she's been taught, and she should seek it out.
Ah well, whatever we're hoping for: prophecy of the sequel, I think not. Idle thoughts of awestruck RPG fans, definitely.
Imma just get back to my other obsession, speculating on Code Geass.
To be honest, I'm really hoping for the same, but I do believe that she and Flemeth are playing a larger game here, and that I've played right into it. Whether Morrigan has found that she actually ended up loving my Warden and regretted it, or whether she was having doubts ever since I challenged her views and loves the Warden but was afraid of Flemeth (she's much more powerful than the battle suggests, as Morrigan seems to doubt that she's dead), I have no idea. Still, I really do hope that she ended up becoming just a little bit more human towards the end, as it'll make it a bit easier when convincing her to come and join me in slaying our army-crushing, blood-drinking child.
And tallon, I completely agree with the whole "abused child" comparison, that's why I'm hoping that my Warden opened her eyes a bit and she's found whatever she and Flemeth may have planned, there's more to the world that what she's been taught, and she should seek it out.
Ah well, whatever we're hoping for: prophecy of the sequel, I think not. Idle thoughts of awestruck RPG fans, definitely.
Imma just get back to my other obsession, speculating on Code Geass.
#5
Posté 03 janvier 2010 - 07:16
tallon1982
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I think the actions taken to show Morrigan that there is another side to humanity changes what the original plan was between her an Flemeth. I mean after she found out what Flemeth intended to do she was pissed off. She might be manipulative but she readily admits it to you so she doesn't hide that fact. I think it was possible that Flemeth wanted the child and talked Morrigan into carrying it due to the age of Flemeth. That way she could take over Morrigan's body and already have a child in process so to speak.
Now that Morrigan knows what the true intention is she decided to nip that in the bud and perhaps show the child what she's learned from being around the Grey Warden. My own thoughts on the "god child" is that this kiddo is going to be the solution to the Blights. Turn one of their own against them.
Now that Morrigan knows what the true intention is she decided to nip that in the bud and perhaps show the child what she's learned from being around the Grey Warden. My own thoughts on the "god child" is that this kiddo is going to be the solution to the Blights. Turn one of their own against them.
#6
Posté 03 janvier 2010 - 07:34
TSamee
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That would be truly awesome. It would make work a bit thin on the ground for a Warden, though. Still, I'd like to see how that turns out if it ever happens. Oh, and addressing your comment on Morrigan not caring qboit slaying the High Dragon: it's not really a proper explanation, but I noticed that, while she normally talks a LOT with other party members, she was silent in Haven, whereas other party members were talking as usual. Probably nothing, though, as she could've killed me for betraying and destroying what was essentially a dragon cult. Still, DLC seems to be rolling out fast, and i get the feeling that DA2 will have a much larger story (think Assassin's Creed. AC1 set up story arcs and created some hooks and intrigue, but you only really got to know your enemy in AC2. So this Blight might just be here to indicate larger forces at play)
#7
Posté 03 janvier 2010 - 07:51
tallon1982
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I hear you on that one. I only had Morrigan say one thing in Haven and it was when I discovered a bloody alter in the house. She said something but it escapes me at the moment.
As for the thin ground for a Warden I think it would still require a lot of wardens to help push back the darkspawn so the kid could do his job. I think there would be one old god left right? Or is it two? And to pull a rather suitable quote from Maya Angelou "Light and shadow are opposite sides of the same coin. We can illuminate our paths or darken our way. It is a matter of choice."
As for the thin ground for a Warden I think it would still require a lot of wardens to help push back the darkspawn so the kid could do his job. I think there would be one old god left right? Or is it two? And to pull a rather suitable quote from Maya Angelou "Light and shadow are opposite sides of the same coin. We can illuminate our paths or darken our way. It is a matter of choice."
#8
Posté 04 janvier 2010 - 09:02
TSamee
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True, that. Still, I'm hoping for an ACI-ACII type thing here, so the real antagonists only really show up in the sequel. By imprisoning a Tainted archdemon inside the child, we didn't really kill the Archdemon, just stop it temporarily. So... Assuming it's not evil from birth, this will be one seriously abnormal kid. And, well, he will have access to magic in his human form, as Morrigan is a mage. So if it's hereditary, then we have a Tainted Archdemon Mage. Which could (depending on choices) be your child. Ouch.
#9
Posté 04 janvier 2010 - 09:40
Spitz6860
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just a couple of quick points here.
if someone is manipulative and is trying to manipulate you, would that person openly tell you that "it's manipulation, i do that all the time"? personally i'm not buying the Morrigan's just using you argument, at least not when she has a positive approval rating.
the sole purpose of the Grey Wardens is to defeat the darkspawn and end the Blight, so if Bioware is making a direct sequel, wouldn't the kid be the most logical way to start another Blight? there are people saying stuff about Orlaisian invasion and such, to me defend a country or resolve a political struggle is not a Grey Warden's job. it's pretty obvious in this game, your final goal is to end the Blight, regardless of the methods, you can be a freaking saint or go jack the ripper on everyone, as long as you kill all the darkspawn, it's a job bloody well-done.
oh btw, thanks for the link, it was a good read.
if someone is manipulative and is trying to manipulate you, would that person openly tell you that "it's manipulation, i do that all the time"? personally i'm not buying the Morrigan's just using you argument, at least not when she has a positive approval rating.
the sole purpose of the Grey Wardens is to defeat the darkspawn and end the Blight, so if Bioware is making a direct sequel, wouldn't the kid be the most logical way to start another Blight? there are people saying stuff about Orlaisian invasion and such, to me defend a country or resolve a political struggle is not a Grey Warden's job. it's pretty obvious in this game, your final goal is to end the Blight, regardless of the methods, you can be a freaking saint or go jack the ripper on everyone, as long as you kill all the darkspawn, it's a job bloody well-done.
oh btw, thanks for the link, it was a good read.
Modifié par Spitz6860, 04 janvier 2010 - 10:13 .
#10
Posté 04 janvier 2010 - 09:44
celdoloth
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I have a theory, if you guys will indulge me.
The true threat to Thedas is not, and has never been, the darkspawn, the Blight, or the Archdemon. They are actually a gift to Thedas by the Maker. After long last, we have a weapon against our true enemies: The demons of the Fade.
Avernus says: "Blood magic came from demons, they could counter every bit of lore I know, but the Darkspawn taint, that is alien to them, and it has power!"
Let us say that we do have a Tainted Archdemon Mage. What if it would be the one mage who could freely develop their substantial power without fear of possession? The one mage who could, perhaps, enter the Fade physically and strike at the true enemies heart? As it stands now, even magi cannot enter the Fade physically, but only mentally through lucid dreaming.
The idea is kinda thin, but it struck me as interesting at least, and I love Avernus' quote there
The true threat to Thedas is not, and has never been, the darkspawn, the Blight, or the Archdemon. They are actually a gift to Thedas by the Maker. After long last, we have a weapon against our true enemies: The demons of the Fade.
Avernus says: "Blood magic came from demons, they could counter every bit of lore I know, but the Darkspawn taint, that is alien to them, and it has power!"
Let us say that we do have a Tainted Archdemon Mage. What if it would be the one mage who could freely develop their substantial power without fear of possession? The one mage who could, perhaps, enter the Fade physically and strike at the true enemies heart? As it stands now, even magi cannot enter the Fade physically, but only mentally through lucid dreaming.
The idea is kinda thin, but it struck me as interesting at least, and I love Avernus' quote there
#11
Posté 04 janvier 2010 - 09:45
fistandantilius8
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I rejected Morrigan. I was the "good" guy, trying to help her actually live life like an actual human being. Much good that did me exactly. As soon as she started mentioning all this "ritual" crap I was like Nope. Uh huh. Not with this character buddy.
Haven't yet gotten there with my second character, a Mage. Who, for some reason, is the "good" guy again. I swear, I just forget this is not KOTOR and completely space the morality of my current character. So he just kinda drifted towards the "good" side of things, cause that's how I am.
Kudos to the writers of this game. They did a SUPERB job!!! I can't wait for DAO 2!!!
Haven't yet gotten there with my second character, a Mage. Who, for some reason, is the "good" guy again. I swear, I just forget this is not KOTOR and completely space the morality of my current character. So he just kinda drifted towards the "good" side of things, cause that's how I am.
Kudos to the writers of this game. They did a SUPERB job!!! I can't wait for DAO 2!!!
#12
Posté 04 janvier 2010 - 11:55
Layn
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if Flemeth joined a dragon clan it would probably only have been to get the power to shapeshift into a dragon. Actually worshipping a dragon (and not even an old god) doesn't seem like something Flemeth would do.
btw. the child is not an archdemon. it's an old god. Unless of course you dont want to believe morrigan
btw. the child is not an archdemon. it's an old god. Unless of course you dont want to believe morrigan
#13
Posté 04 janvier 2010 - 01:46
TSamee
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Yeah, I was going to post that a couple of hours ago, but the machine I was on then is completely ancient, and refuses to post. Found out that the birthing process seems to remove the Taint, so we've effectively just got an Old God in a child's body.
While that could go horribly wrong, it's nice to know that I may not end up having to destroy my (admittedly dangerously-powerful) child. Also, if the child is host to an uncorrupted Old God, won't it draw Darkspawn like a beacon? Or does the whole "Darkspawn are attracted to them" principle not apply here, as the God is actively inside a being, and not just dormant?
Sadly, we've got no chance of knowing at the moment, as we need to know about the kid's upbringing to discuss his/her morality. And to know about its upbringing, we need to know more about the person raising it; Morrigan. And, well, we don't really know much about Morrigan at all, as we're not sure we can trust her, and the only other person who knows her is Flemeth. And none of us would trust her for anything.
So, going a little bit into the whole "we want a Morrigan DLC" article, maybe a minor DLC could help, but it shouldn't involve re-establishing a relationship with her, or doing something about the child. Rather, more information concerning the Ritual, or Morrigan, might become available through a seemingly unrelated DLC (seriously, a complete Morrigan DLC would cost TONS of Bioware/MS points, it wouldn't end up having the magnitude that another meeting with her deserves, and it would destroy many potentially strong story arcs in a DA sequel. Not worth it.)
While that could go horribly wrong, it's nice to know that I may not end up having to destroy my (admittedly dangerously-powerful) child. Also, if the child is host to an uncorrupted Old God, won't it draw Darkspawn like a beacon? Or does the whole "Darkspawn are attracted to them" principle not apply here, as the God is actively inside a being, and not just dormant?
Sadly, we've got no chance of knowing at the moment, as we need to know about the kid's upbringing to discuss his/her morality. And to know about its upbringing, we need to know more about the person raising it; Morrigan. And, well, we don't really know much about Morrigan at all, as we're not sure we can trust her, and the only other person who knows her is Flemeth. And none of us would trust her for anything.
So, going a little bit into the whole "we want a Morrigan DLC" article, maybe a minor DLC could help, but it shouldn't involve re-establishing a relationship with her, or doing something about the child. Rather, more information concerning the Ritual, or Morrigan, might become available through a seemingly unrelated DLC (seriously, a complete Morrigan DLC would cost TONS of Bioware/MS points, it wouldn't end up having the magnitude that another meeting with her deserves, and it would destroy many potentially strong story arcs in a DA sequel. Not worth it.)
Modifié par TSamee, 04 janvier 2010 - 01:47 .
#14
Posté 05 janvier 2010 - 04:29
tallon1982
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I don't the god child would be aware of what he or she was. The way I looked at it is a reincarnation of the spirit. It doesn't necessarily mean it'll be calling to the darkspawn.
#15
Posté 05 janvier 2010 - 09:02
TSamee
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yeah, but the Old Gods don't consciously call them (as far as we know), the Darkspawn are just drawn to them. So what would suck more then? Being a kid saddled with awesome power, or being randomly chased by Darkspawn for some reason you haven't discovered yet?
