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[Cutlass Jack]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

"Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it."

Except, it doesn't matter if the average 20 something learns history. The people in charge are the ones who repeat it, we're just along for the ride.

Fun history fact: The people in charge were 20 once too.

[Emzamination]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

What a load of crock... I don't need to study injustices, atrocities and war crimes committed throughout human history to know right from wrong.

Maybe not, but you can study how the events took place and why, see what factors were involved in starting them in the first place. Thus armed with that knowledge, one could seek to prevent similar atrocities from occuring.

If human morality was so reliable on its own, we would be living in a very different world now wouldn't we.

 men and women with greed and ambition will always be produced, no one can change that. How many people support or put such people in power for their own personal vices... well that's a matter for thy brother's keeper.

"The surest way for people to lose their power is to believe they don't have any."

I believe humanity is capable of doing more. But it cannot do so without knowledge.

That right there is the problem with this world, everyone wants to be a Hero trying to save everyone else from their problems instead of worrying about saving their own ***. I never will understand that. I could give a **** less about tom being a wife beater next door. why? because it doesn't affect me and is there for none of my business.

Mankinds redemption isn't any one person's problem.

Modifié par Emzamination, 15 novembre 2012 - 05:39 .

[TEWR]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

"Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it."

Except, it doesn't matter if the average 20 something learns history. The people in charge are the ones who repeat it, we're just along for the ride.

Fun history fact: The people in charge were 20 once too.

Or younger.

Cue "A Child Shall Lead Them"

[Some Geth]

Emzamination wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

What a load of crock... I don't need to study injustices, atrocities and war crimes committed throughout human history to know right from wrong.

Maybe not, but you can study how the events took place and why, see what factors were involved in starting them in the first place. Thus armed with that knowledge, one could seek to prevent similar atrocities from occuring.

If human morality was so reliable on its own, we would be living in a very different world now wouldn't we.

 men and women with greed and ambition will always be produced, no one can change that. How many people support or put such people in power for their own personal vices... well that's a matter for thy brother's keeper.

"The surest way for people to lose their power is to believe they don't have any."

I believe humanity is capable of doing more. But it cannot do so without knowledge.

That right there is the problem with this world, everyone wants to be a Hero trying to save everyone else from their problems instead of worrying about saving their own ***. I never will understand that. I could give a **** less about tom being a wife beater next door. why? because it doesn't affect me and is there for none of my business.

That makes you a d!ck.

[TEWR]

Emzamination wrote...

That right there is the problem with this world, everyone wants to be a Hero trying to save everyone else from their problems instead of worrying about saving their own ***. I never will understand that. I could give a **** less about tom being a wife beater next door. why? because it doesn't affect me and is there for none of my business.

What a load of crock... I don't need to study injustices, atrocities and war crimes committed throughout human history to know right from wrong.

Does not compute.

[Some Geth]

lol

[Emzamination]

Some Geth wrote...

That makes you a d!ck.

That's life for you. Some people want to save the world, some want to watch it burn and some just don't give a ****.

[Emzamination]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

That right there is the problem with this world, everyone wants to be a Hero trying to save everyone else from their problems instead of worrying about saving their own ***. I never will understand that. I could give a **** less about tom being a wife beater next door. why? because it doesn't affect me and is there for none of my business.

What a load of crock... I don't need to study injustices, atrocities and war crimes committed throughout human history to know right from wrong.

Does not compute.

That would make sense if emzamination was said wife beater. Tom's wrongs are his own. Better?

Modifié par Emzamination, 15 novembre 2012 - 05:43 .

[Some Geth]

Emzamination wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

That makes you a d!ck.

That's life for you. Some people want to save the world, some want to watch it burn and some just don't give a ****.

No that's stupid. You are stupid.

Modifié par Some Geth, 15 novembre 2012 - 05:44 .

[TEWR]

That would make sense if emzamination was said wife beater. Tom's wrongs are his own. Better?

No. By allowing it to continue while knowing about it, you're allowing wrong to continue. If you know it's wrong and do nothing, you're just as bad as Tom.

Because for all you know, Tom's just one step away from turning from wife-beater into murderer.

And then what? Are you going to stay hidden in the shadows because "Tom's murder of his wife is his own" and it's "none of your business"?

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 novembre 2012 - 05:46 .

[Emzamination]

Some Geth wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

That makes you a d!ck.

That's life for you. Some people want to save the world, some want to watch it burn and some just don't give a ****.

No that's stupid. You are stupid.

Idealist are sooooo adorable with their conceived views of how things should work. We realist tend to be less so.

[slimgrin]

So Emzamination, let me get this right. You're advocating ignorance?

[Cutlass Jack]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

"Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it."

Except, it doesn't matter if the average 20 something learns history. The people in charge are the ones who repeat it, we're just along for the ride.

Fun history fact: The people in charge were 20 once too.

Fun fact: There isn't a 20 year old leading a first world country right now.

And yet each and every one of them were 20 once. The point eluding you is one day the 20 year olds might be older and potentially in charge of things. And they'll be doomed to repeat the mistakes of history if they didn't spend the prior time learning a little bit about them.

[Emzamination]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That would make sense if emzamination was said wife beater. Tom's wrongs are his own. Better?

No. By allowing it to continue while knowing about it, you're allowing wrong to continue. If you know it's wrong and do nothing, you're just as bad as Tom.

Because for all you know, Tom's just one step away from turning from wife-beater into murderer.

And then what? Are you going to stay hidden in the shadows because "Tom's murder of his wife is his own" and it's "none of your business"?

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing

There's that brother's keeper logic again. How do you figure I am responsible for someone else's problems merely for having knowledge of it?

If that were the case then we'd all be wrong for knowing soldiers are killing people during war, yet letting it continue. Everyone is responsible for themselves and answers for themselves.

[TheClonesLegacy]

Some Geth wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

That makes you a d!ck.

That's life for you. Some people want to save the world, some want to watch it burn and some just don't give a ****.

No that's stupid. You are stupid.

How so? Seems pretty spot on to me

[Emzamination]

slimgrin wrote...

So Emzamination, let me get this right. You're advocating ignorance?

No I'm advocating humankind looking out for it's individual self and stop trying to saddle each other's problems.

[slimgrin]

Emzamination wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

So Emzamination, let me get this right. You're advocating ignorance?

No I'm advocating humankind looking out for it's individual self and stop trying to saddle each other's problems.

If only it were that simple.

[bmwcrazy]

I don't know what being a realist or an idealist has anything to do with it but if I know my neighbor has been beating his wife, I'll probably report it to the police rather than staying silent.

[TEWR]

If that were the case then we'd all be wrong for knowing soldiers are killing people during war, yet letting it continue. Everyone is responsible for themselves and answers for themselves.

In such a world as you describe, chaos would be the overriding factor. Laws would not exist, people would commit crimes without a care in the world, and society would be a festering cancer rather then something to learn about and from.

Which it arguably is now, but that's another matter..

If everyone is responsible for themselves, then there's no order in the world.

The simple fact is that there we do bear responsibility for other people. If they commit a crime against another person -- or animal, or the land, etc. -- then it is our duty to make sure they cannot do so again in the confines of the law.

What you're advocating isn't just ignorance. It's a very shortsighted outlook on the world.

And there are rules about how to fight in wars. Murder in a war is horrible, but not illegal. Unless you're murdering civilians. Then you're up for a court-martial.

Hell, society wouldn't be where it is today without war, sad as that is. War drives technological advances.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 novembre 2012 - 05:59 .

[Some Geth]

bmwcrazy wrote...

I don't know what being a realist or an idealist has anything to do with it but if I know my neighbor has been beating his wife, I'll probably report it to the police rather than staying silent.

But being nihilistic is so cool!

[Emzamination]

slimgrin wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

So Emzamination, let me get this right. You're advocating ignorance?

No I'm advocating humankind looking out for it's individual self and stop trying to saddle each other's problems.

If only it were that simple.

It's not? I thought it was something you just had to want to do.

[Monica21]

This doesn't have anything to do with idealism vs. realism. It's not even really about whether history is interesting but instead whether it's relevant.

What if your wife-beater neighbor isn't a wife-beater but a skinhead? Doesn't affect you, right? Okay then. He can be a skinhead as long as he doesn't hurt anyone because the law lets him. What if he runs for city council? Nobody cares that he's a skinhead because they've decided not to care, and because he can't really enact any policy at a city council level that that would reinforce his worldview. Not really fine at this point (IMO), but the guy still hasn't done anything illegal.

But say the guy's popular. People like him. He's got charisma. He moves up in government. Nobody's paid attention to a manifesto he wrote 20 years ago or a group he was (or is) part of because it doesn't have anything to do with taxes. (And because it's history and therefore boring.) The problem, and the historical relevance, of this guy then becomes at what point he's able to enact legislation giving his own viewpoint relevance and legality. Suddenly people of different races can't marry. Races can't interact. Gays are second-class citizens. Blacks are disenfranchised.

The relevance is that this has happened before. The point being made earlier is that you may not care that your neighbor is a wife-beater, and it may not personally affect you. But by the time it does affect you or someone you love, it may be too late to do anything about it simply because you've decided not to pay attention.

[Emzamination]

bmwcrazy wrote...

I don't know what being a realist or an idealist has anything to do with it but if I know my neighbor has been beating his wife, I'll probably report it to the police rather than staying silent.

You want to be the hero? have at it. Want to tackle a purse snatcher or suspect running from the cops as well? enjoy. Just give me time to step out of your way.