111 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If that were the case then we'd all be wrong for knowing soldiers are killing people during war, yet letting it continue. Everyone is responsible for themselves and answers for themselves.

In such a world as you describe, chaos would be the overriding factor. Laws would not exist, people would commit crimes without a care in the world, and society would be a festering cancer rather then something to learn about and from.

Which it arguably is now, but that's another matter..

If everyone is responsible for themselves, then there's no order in the world.

The simple fact is that there we do bear responsibility for other people. If they commit a crime against another person -- or animal, or the land, etc. -- then it is our duty to make sure they cannot do so again in the confines of the law.

What you're advocating isn't just ignorance. It's a very shortsighted outlook on the world.

And there are rules about how to fight in wars. Murder in a war is horrible, but not illegal. Unless you're murdering civilians. Then you're up for a court-martial.

Hell, society wouldn't be where it is today without war, sad as that is. War drives technological advances.

Laws are creation of mankind. If someone can't control themselves without laws, well... that just their problem isn't it? As long as emzamination isn't partaking in the debauchery of said world, how is it her problem?

[TEWR]

I'm sure if you were in a position that did directly affect you and people weren't helping you, you'd feel differently Emzamination.

[bmwcrazy]

Emzamination wrote...

bmwcrazy wrote...

I don't know what being a realist or an idealist has anything to do with it but if I know my neighbor has been beating his wife, I'll probably report it to the police rather than staying silent.

You want to be the hero? have at it. Want to tackle a purse snatcher or suspect running from the cops as well? enjoy. Just give me time to step out of your way.

Who said anything about being a hero?

Reporting a domestic disturbance doesn't take much.

[Emzamination]

Monica21 wrote...

This doesn't have anything to do with idealism vs. realism. It's not even really about whether history is interesting but instead whether it's relevant.

What if your wife-beater neighbor isn't a wife-beater but a skinhead? Doesn't affect you, right? Okay then. He can be a skinhead as long as he doesn't hurt anyone because the law lets him. What if he runs for city council? Nobody cares that he's a skinhead because they've decided not to care, and because he can't really enact any policy at a city council level that that would reinforce his worldview. Not really fine at this point (IMO), but the guy still hasn't done anything illegal.

But say the guy's popular. People like him. He's got charisma. He moves up in government. Nobody's paid attention to a manifesto he wrote 20 years ago or a group he was (or is) part of because it doesn't have anything to do with taxes. (And because it's history and therefore boring.) The problem, and the historical relevance, of this guy then becomes at what point he's able to enact legislation giving his own viewpoint relevance and legality. Suddenly people of different races can't marry. Races can't interact. Gays are second-class citizens. Blacks are disenfranchised.

The relevance is that this has happened before. The point being made earlier is that you may not care that your neighbor is a wife-beater, and it may not personally affect you. But by the time it does affect you or someone you love, it may be too late to do anything about it simply because you've decided not to pay attention.

Assuming any of that affects me or even that I'd care, the world is a very large place and there's nothing binding me to one place.

[Monica21]

The Mad Hanar wrote...
Most of the average 20 year olds won't have a chance to become a leader. The people who lead the country are usually one's with access to superior education, have a lot of experience in the political field or have a decorated military service record. An averge 20 year old in America usually has to focus on the skills and knowledge in the field that they are learning so they can actually get a job whilst dealing with their leaders poor decisions. So therefore, the average 20 something is not obligated to learn history, the ones that are obligated are the ones in the political or military fields. History is just a fun class for the average person. Does that make sense?

The people who lead in this country work hard, end. Some have had superior education, but they've had to work hard to get into those schools. They weren't born into rich families. Getting experience in the political field isn't all that easy either. It's a lot of work knocking on doors on nights and weekends and making phone calls, and driving people to a polling place. People with decorated service records work hard. They don't have to have gone to a military academy. It's a combination of things. If you'd told me 20 years ago that man with a white mother from Kansas and a black father from Kenya, born in Hawaii and raised by his grandparents would be president, I'd have laughed you out of the room. Our current president is the product of hard work, not of any special privilege.

And no, it doesn't make sense. The average 20-something is an enfranchised voter. The moment you decide that history doesn't matter is the moment you give up your power and your voice. Did you notice that people in Florida stood in line until 1:30am to vote? They stayed in line until after they knew who won the election. They stayed in line because everyone's voice is important. And don't tell me a vote doesn't matter. If everyone who said their vote doesn't matter went out and registered to vote and then actually voted, it would matter.

[Emzamination]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm sure if you were in a position that did directly affect you and people weren't helping you, you'd feel differently Emzamination.

No I really wouldn't. My problems are my own and I treat them as such.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

But it's just acknowledging the flawed nature of man that we must contend with.

Like you said, it shouldn't be taken as something that should be the norm. But it is certainly an element of mankind, that much cannot be denied.

What was the term for it? The bystander effect? People who see a crime hope someone else will step forward so they don't have to?

That's certainly different from what Emzam's proposing. Emzamination is proposing we take that as the norm rather then simply acknowledging that not everyone can -- and wants to -- be the person that helps those in misfortune.

[Emzamination]

bmwcrazy wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

bmwcrazy wrote...

I don't know what being a realist or an idealist has anything to do with it but if I know my neighbor has been beating his wife, I'll probably report it to the police rather than staying silent.

You want to be the hero? have at it. Want to tackle a purse snatcher or suspect running from the cops as well? enjoy. Just give me time to step out of your way.

Who said anything about being a hero?

Reporting a domestic disturbance doesn't take much.

Giving a homeless man a dollar to eat doesn't take much either but to that man you're a hero.

Modifié par Emzamination, 15 novembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[Monica21]

Emzamination wrote...
Assuming any of that affects me or even that I'd care, the world is a very large place and there's nothing binding me to one place.

Except I can give you a lot of examples of countries and laws that have deliberately made it next to impossible for citizens to leave of their own volition.

[Some Geth]

Monica21 wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...
Most of the average 20 year olds won't have a chance to become a leader. The people who lead the country are usually one's with access to superior education, have a lot of experience in the political field or have a decorated military service record. An averge 20 year old in America usually has to focus on the skills and knowledge in the field that they are learning so they can actually get a job whilst dealing with their leaders poor decisions. So therefore, the average 20 something is not obligated to learn history, the ones that are obligated are the ones in the political or military fields. History is just a fun class for the average person. Does that make sense?

The people who lead in this country work hard, end. Some have had superior education, but they've had to work hard to get into those schools. They weren't born into rich families. Getting experience in the political field isn't all that easy either. It's a lot of work knocking on doors on nights and weekends and making phone calls, and driving people to a polling place. People with decorated service records work hard. They don't have to have gone to a military academy. It's a combination of things. If you'd told me 20 years ago that man with a white mother from Kansas and a black father from Kenya, born in Hawaii and raised by his grandparents would be president, I'd have laughed you out of the room. Our current president is the product of hard work, not of any special privilege.

And no, it doesn't make sense. The average 20-something is an enfranchised voter. The moment you decide that history doesn't matter is the moment you give up your power and your voice. Did you notice that people in Florida stood in line until 1:30am to vote? They stayed in line until after they knew who won the election. They stayed in line because everyone's voice is important. And don't tell me a vote doesn't matter. If everyone who said their vote doesn't matter went out and registered to vote and then actually voted, it would matter.

Will you marry me?

[Emzamination]

Filament wrote...

By default I disagree with anything Emzamination says, but I will say, it's probably impossible not to look the other way to some extent. It's a matter of where you draw the line, whether if it's the injustice right in front of you, or one being committed in your name, or just happening somewhere in the world and you happen to become aware of it. But no matter how far you go or how hard you try, there's no avoiding being at the very least ignorant of most of the world's daily injustices.

That doesn't mean you should take looking the other way and ultimate selfishness as some kind of grand ideal like Ayn Rand. But it's just acknowledging the flawed nature of man that we must contend with.

Wait what?

[Emzamination]

Monica21 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Assuming any of that affects me or even that I'd care, the world is a very large place and there's nothing binding me to one place.

Except I can give you a lot of examples of countries and laws that have deliberately made it next to impossible for citizens to leave of their own volition.

Oh for a sec there I thought you were going to say every  *phew* Carry on.

[Monica21]

So, Emzamination is further proof that ignorance is bliss, right? Got it.

[Addai]

I'm a history nerd and I hated most of my history classes. Boring. I would rather read and do papers on my own. Not to mention the textbooks, at least in the US, are atrocious. Get what you can out of formal history classes and do the rest on your own. You can educate yourself pretty well with some discipline.

I like the History in an Hour e-book series, for reading when I have little time. Medievalists.net is also a tremendous resource- they link to up to date academic articles on a wide range of subjects.

Modifié par Addai67, 15 novembre 2012 - 06:18 .

[Emzamination]

Monica21 wrote...

So, Emzamination is further proof that ignorance is bliss, right? Got it.

Being ignorant and just not caring aren't one in the same, dear.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

Because some people think improving education is throwing globs of money we don't have at it and it'll be good and excellent. They call it progress, too.

[Monica21]

Emzamination wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

So, Emzamination is further proof that ignorance is bliss, right? Got it.

Being ignorant and just not caring aren't one in the same, dear.

Do not, under any circumstances, call me "dear" again. I can't tell if you're trolling or just stupid, but I'm leaning towards the latter. And I've never said this before, but since you so obviously don't care, please refrain from making your "whatever" vote known in whatever country it is you live. Everyone will be better off if your head stays stuck in the sand.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

I see Stan the Man entering soon...

[Emzamination]

Monica21 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

So, Emzamination is further proof that ignorance is bliss, right? Got it.

Being ignorant and just not caring aren't one in the same, dear.

Do not, under any circumstances, call me "dear" again. I can't tell if you're trolling or just stupid, but I'm leaning towards the latter. And I've never said this before, but since you so obviously don't care, please refrain from making your "whatever" vote known in whatever country it is you live. Everyone will be better off if your head stays stuck in the sand.

So because I don't stand on your moral high ground, suddenly I'm trolling and stupid? Why so self-righteous, dear?

Might want to work on that anger, dear, I hear it give wrinkles.

[Giggles_Manically]

Mostly its just laziness from what I have seen.

They dont see a point to it so they ignore it.
It makes me sad when most Canadians dont even know something a middle school student should know.

I seriously know people who cant even name a single Prime Minister not from their lifetime, or who any of the nations founders are.

Some of it is also people not wanting to harm their idea that Canada is a great country. No...just read a history book Canada has a pretty shameful past in some ways.

[Cutlass Jack]

sympathy4sarenreturns wrote...

I see Stan the Man entering soon...

And people say knowing history isn't valuable.

[TEWR]

Actually, I'd like to discuss history now. Who are some intelligent monarchs in our history I could take a look at, for inspiration for a King character I'm looking to write?

Cutlass Jack wrote...

sympathy4sarenreturns wrote...

I see Stan the Man entering soon...

And people say knowing history isn't valuable.

Ha!

Emzamination wrote...

So because I don't stand on your moral high ground, suddenly I'm trolling and stupid?

If you had read that, you'd have realized that Monica said she wasn't sure if you were trolling or stupid. Not that you were both.

Though I'm certainly leaning towards both now.... <_<.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 novembre 2012 - 06:35 .