285 réponses à ce sujet

[upinya slayin]

modok8 wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

modok8 wrote...

What exactly is the point of determining whether or not "the shuriken is awesome?"
I'd bet it isn't altruism

He was making a joke at my collector SMG is a good gun thread

Yes I understand that, but you were making an argument about the viability of a weapon
which he is mocking here
So this thread is also about determining the viability of the weapon
So my question stands
Why?

Boredom?

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

modok8 wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

modok8 wrote...

What exactly is the point of determining whether or not "the shuriken is awesome?"
I'd bet it isn't altruism

He was making a joke at my collector SMG is a good gun thread

Yes I understand that, but you were making an argument about the viability of a weapon
which he is mocking here
So this thread is also about determining the viability of weapons
So my question stands
Why?

The point is that you can put any weapon on an Infiltrator, play with some PuGs, score 200k and say this weapon is good. Doesn't mean it is though.

[Chaoswind]

Shuriken is light as **** so there is that

[cronshaw]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

modok8 wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

modok8 wrote...

What exactly is the point of determining whether or not "the shuriken is awesome?"
I'd bet it isn't altruism

He was making a joke at my collector SMG is a good gun thread

Yes I understand that, but you were making an argument about the viability of a weapon
which he is mocking here
So this thread is also about determining the viability of weapons
So my question stands
Why?

The point is that you can put any weapon on an Infiltrator, play with some PuGs, score 200k and say this weapon is good. Doesn't mean it is though.

So what does it mean "it is good"?
I'm not just trying to simple or an ass, this is just something i find interesting.
Lord Siran is saying that one argument for determining a wepon is good is invalid.
Okay, well what is a valid argument?
That may not be the point of this thread, but It made me think about it.
I think one of the problems is there is no "baseline player"
Stats are nice and static, and numbers make some people very comfortable, but i'm not sure they tell the whole story.
Anyway food for thought, do with it what you will

Modifié par modok8, 16 novembre 2012 - 03:21 .

[cronshaw]

upinya slayin wrote...

modok8 wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

modok8 wrote...

What exactly is the point of determining whether or not "the shuriken is awesome?"
I'd bet it isn't altruism

He was making a joke at my collector SMG is a good gun thread

Yes I understand that, but you were making an argument about the viability of a weapon
which he is mocking here
So this thread is also about determining the viability of the weapon
So my question stands
Why?

Boredom?

Haha!
I'm sure that has something to do with it

[Ashen One]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

sobit wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

Thats score doesn't add up. should be abut 50k lower total score. espcially since objectives weren't milked (full time bonus on credits) only way the happened is using 5 rockets on wave 11 spawns (you can get about 10k per spawn if you get 2 banshees, 3 brutes,a nd 2 ravagers which is usually a spawn)

gold XP were increased. i just finished a reaper gold PUG with 440k total XP and 81586 credits. i was surprised too, but it seems the increase was that big. no missiles used on extraction btw.

That screenshot is old as hell.

75k credits is what you would get for a 16 minute gold run before the patch, assuming all objectives were completed quickly. (extraction gives bonus credits)

This is from before Retaliation.

Nah it was done yesterday. Sirian died during extraction wave, he got spawn trapped [Banshees/Brutes/Ravagers spawning on him] even though there was 2 free spawn locations. Respawn are sometimes messed up.

Since he died he didn't get the extraction bonus. So 75k credits for him.

lol what a scrub.

[T41rdEye]

Hornet? Bwahaha n00b.

[Ashen One]

upinya slayin wrote...

How else do you test a weapon? how can you really compare?

I believe the terms "good" and "bad" are subjective. However, when I'm comparing a weapon to another I will state why it is I believe so and then support it with facts.

Example: The Talon is better than the Eviscerator.

The Talon has

• more ammo
• higher damage
• larger clip
• faster RoF
• less weight
• better accuracy
• fires less pellets (which means it is more effective against armor)

Unless you have a hard on for the shotgun omniblade and HVB or want to use both a lightweight shotgun and a pistol simultaneously, there is no reason to ever use an Eviscerator over a Talon of the same level.


If someone claims a weapon is "good", I'll compare it to other weapons in it's league to figure out where that weapon stands by comparing stats, mechanics, and in-game experience.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 16 novembre 2012 - 12:27 .

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Me1mN0t wrote...

Hornet? Bwahaha n00b.

Well if you compare it to the Hurricane, yeah the Hornet is quite bad. Then again, plenty of weapons compare poorly versus the Hurricane.

[Chaoswind]

Oh also considering its weight and capabilities, shuriken is one of the best comon weapons in the game and isn't fair to compare it with rare and Ultra rare stuff

[upinya slayin]

Ashen Earth wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

How else do you test a weapon? how can you really compare?

I believe the terms "good" and "bad" are subjective. However, when I'm comparing a weapon to another I will state why it is I believe so and then support it with facts.

Example: The Talon is better than the Eviscerator.

The Talon has

• more ammo
• higher damage
• larger clip
• faster RoF
• less weight
• better accuracy
• fires less pellets (which means it is more effective against armor)

Unless you have a hard on for the shotgun omniblade and HVB or want to use both a lightweight shotgun and a pistol simultaneously, there is no reason to ever use an Eviscerator over a Talon of the same level.


If someone claims a weapon is "good", I'll compare it to other weapons in it's league to figure out where that weapon stands by comparing stats, mechanics, and in-game experience.

[*]Your using an example that has no leeway. its a commoon to an UR and one that eveyroene agrees would be way better. but how about one not so clear cut? like a javelin to a BW
[*]a javeling does more damage per shot and has better AP but the BW has 3 times as many shots and more spare ammo. both are URs. yet some people consider the javelin a bad gun. (and don't give me the they are idiots argument either lol) How could you say 1 is clearly better then the other. Point is you can't And it wasn't fully about comapring 2 weapons. the main question is how can you determine a weapon is good or bad. Some weapons like the collector SMG have a large amount of people saying its awesome and a large amount saying it sucks. There is no baseline and in the end its all based off your opinion and experiance. So if i think the collector SMG is good and I can do good with it, then how can somebody tell me I should think its a bad weapon?

[Ziegrif]

modok8 wrote...

So what does mean it is good?
I'm not just trying to simple or an ass, this is just something i find interesting.
Lord Siran is saying that one argument for determining a wepon is good is invalid.
Okay, well what is a valid argument?
That may not be the point of this thread, but It made me think about it.
I think one of the problems is there is no "baseline player"
Stats are nice and static, and numbers make some people very comfortable, but i'm not sure they tell the whole story.
Anyway food for thought, do with it what you will

A baseline player and situation is one where there's a bot who goes through the same course with the same enemies doing the same thing everytime. There is no variation in it meaning stats would be key.

But that's impossible for us to recreate.
Every MP game is different sometimes you may get more or less enemies in your way because you took a wrong turn for example.

There's also personal prefrence and the skill of the player to consider.
Due to these 2 variables I decided to just call direct bull**** on anyone calling something good or bad.
For example I can't use the PPR to save my life, but I can use the eagle to great effect.

The guns also have cooldown variables.
The absolute best gun must be able to give near 160%(depends on character and what the universal best CD is for that character) cd be effective against armor, health, shields and barriers. Need to be usable by everyone regardless of skill. Have high dmg be easily reload cancelled. Be extremely effective on any range on any character and be able to utilize all ammo powers as well as possible and many more variables from every single possible situation in game.

A good gun needs to fulfill the variables on a top scale being good in most categories.

There's really too many variable IMO to consider anything the best or worst.
So whenever someone says something rocks or sucks I read it as ''This is a good weapon FOR ME.'' Subjective everything is. So a situation where people post a screenshot is them showing that they themselves found a niche for a gun that complemented their personal playstyle.

Always thought threads like this and other ''this gun is good but this isn't'' threads were silly. When I made a bigass thread with the GI using silly weapons I did it out of humour and silly E-peen.

Oh wow... umm I guess /Rant is appropriate?
Well just take this as my subjective view on the guns and stuff.

Modifié par Ziegrif, 16 novembre 2012 - 12:36 .

[upinya slayin]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Me1mN0t wrote...

Hornet? Bwahaha n00b.

Well if you compare it to the Hurricane, yeah the Hornet is quite bad. Then again, plenty of weapons compare poorly versus the Hurricane.

I'll take a hurricane on my GI over a pirhanna on my GI anyday for platinum speed runs

[Chaoswind]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Me1mN0t wrote...

Hornet? Bwahaha n00b.

Well if you compare it to the Hurricane, yeah the Hornet is quite bad. Then again, plenty of weapons compare poorly versus the Hurricane.

Hurricane X is the best weapon in the game, no question about that

Harrier X? that is a poor man Hurricane X:P

mine is awesome at 6, best weapon I have, is hard to use anything else (but I am forced to use them because of the challenges)

[Xaijin]

modok8 wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

modok8 wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

modok8 wrote...

What exactly is the point of determining whether or not "the shuriken is awesome?"
I'd bet it isn't altruism

He was making a joke at my collector SMG is a good gun thread

Yes I understand that, but you were making an argument about the viability of a weapon
which he is mocking here
So this thread is also about determining the viability of weapons
So my question stands
Why?

The point is that you can put any weapon on an Infiltrator, play with some PuGs, score 200k and say this weapon is good. Doesn't mean it is though.

So what does mean it is good?
I'm not just trying to simple or an ass, this is just something i find interesting.
Lord Siran is saying that one argument for determining a wepon is good is invalid.
Okay, well what is a valid argument?
That may not be the point of this thread, but It made me think about it.
I think one of the problems is there is no "baseline player"
Stats are nice and static, and numbers make some people very comfortable, but i'm not sure they tell the whole story.
Anyway food for thought, do with it what you will

It is entirely possible to perform a baseline check of stat effects combined with average best usage of anything. Fighting game developers and analysts have been doing this for twenty years. Performance can and will be reduced to a rather simple algorithm, and yes, this can also cover utility by checking player damage taken or current enemy state at the same time.

These are the kinds of things experienced players and devs alike do, especially ones from a fighting game background who also get in the trenches on a regular basis.

But that's impossible for us to recreate.

State-machine style tests do exactly this, because it's literally what they are designed to do.

Modifié par Xaijin, 16 novembre 2012 - 12:37 .

[Sable Dove]

If this keeps up, we'll be seeing more Infiltrator nerfs. After all, if they can make the Shuriken good, then they're obviously overpowered.

[Ziegrif]

Xaijin wrote...

It is entirely possible to perform a baseline check of stat effects combined with average best usage of anything. Fighting game developers and analysts have been doing this for twenty years. Performance can and will be reduced to a rather simple algorithm, and yes, this can also cover utility by checking player damage taken or current enemy state at the same time.

These are the kinds of things experienced players and devs alike do, especially ones from a fighting game background who also get in the trenches on a regular basis.

But that's impossible for us to recreate.

State-machine style tests do exactly this, because it's literally what they are designed to do.

Consider me educated then.
Still sticking to the thought that a game of MP has enough variables to offset good or bad and yadda yadda yadda.

[Ashen One]

upinya slayin wrote...

our using an example that has no leeway. its a commoon to an UR and one that eveyroene agrees would be way better.

Both weapons fill the niche of a lightweight shotgun. It makes sense to compare them regardless of rarity just like it makes sense to compare the Saber and the Argus. The Talon and the Eviscerator are functionally the same, and appeal to the same classes although one is clearly superior to the other.

upinya slayin wrote...

So if i think the collector SMG is good and I can do good with it, then how can somebody tell me I should think its a bad weapon?

In the end, you're right: It's a matter of opinion. I can't and won't speak for other people, but if I say a weapon is "bad" I support my claim with facts. There is a difference between a person who just says "this weapon is bad and you shouldn't use it because it is bad" and someone who backs up his statements with valid arguments.

[Xaijin]

yadda yadda yadda.

I don't disregard your opinion, and I'm actually in the "pretty splosions over matrix numbers" camp, but the simple fact is there are objective absolutes behind the green curtains, and these things can be boiled down into usable hard data, which is why there are balance changes to begin with, a combination of culminated opinion and hard objective data.

Modifié par Xaijin, 16 novembre 2012 - 12:45 .

[Kalas Magnus]

Chaoswind wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Me1mN0t wrote...

Hornet? Bwahaha n00b.

Well if you compare it to the Hurricane, yeah the Hornet is quite bad. Then again, plenty of weapons compare poorly versus the Hurricane.

Hurricane X is the best weapon in the game, no question about that

Harrier X? that is a poor unlucky man's Hurricane X:P

mine is awesome at 6, best weapon I have, is hard to use anything else (but I am forced to use them because of the challenges)

If I could spend 21 mil for one upgrade I would...

Modifié par Kalas321, 16 novembre 2012 - 12:46 .

[Grunt_Platform]

Considering the closest competition for the Collector SMG are guns like the N7 Eagle and the Locust... it's in an odd spot.

EDIT: In terms of pure damage the Hurricane is absolutely insane. I think people tend to forget its poor accuracy, recoil and limited ammo though... probably because those are all the easiest handicaps to work around.

Modifié par EvanKester, 16 novembre 2012 - 12:53 .

[Turian Master Race]

Awesome Shuriken is awesome.

[Chaoswind]

Kalas321 wrote...

Chaoswind wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Me1mN0t wrote...

Hornet? Bwahaha n00b.

Well if you compare it to the Hurricane, yeah the Hornet is quite bad. Then again, plenty of weapons compare poorly versus the Hurricane.

Hurricane X is the best weapon in the game, no question about that

Harrier X? that is a poor unlucky man's Hurricane X:P

mine is awesome at 6, best weapon I have, is hard to use anything else (but I am forced to use them because of the challenges)

If I could spend 21 mil for one upgrade I would...

Is a jab at people that used to say the Hurricane was a poor man Harrier

[Ziegrif]

Xaijin wrote...

yadda yadda yadda.

I don't disregard your opinion, and I'm actually in the "pretty splosions over matrix numbers" camp, but the simple fact is there are objective absolutes behind the green curtains, and these things can be boiled down into usable hard data, which is why there are balance changes to begin with, a combination of culminated opinion and hard objective data.

Yup yup. No hard feelings.
Stilll preferring the the pretty splosions and what I see and experience.