293 réponses à ce sujet

[Taint Master]

I'm ambivalent towards the subject, but I'm surprised at how up tight some people are over virtual nudity.

Full frontal nudity and explicit sex scenes aren't exactly uncommon in some of the most critically acclaimed films, but they aren't considered porn (Monster's Ball comes to mind as I just saw that recently). Why should a cinematic game, particularly one of Bioware's impeccable quality, be any different?

Modifié par Taint Master, 15 novembre 2012 - 07:04 .

[LostInReverie19]

Taint Master wrote...

I'm ambivalent towards the subject, but I'm surprised at how up tight some people are over virtual nudity.

Full frontal nudity and explicit sex scenes aren't exactly uncommon in some of the most critically acclaimed films, but they aren't considered porn (Monster's Ball comes to mind as I just saw that recently). Why should a cinematic game, particularly one of Bioware's impeccable quality, be any different?

Exactly this. Art forms have always included sensual images or depictions of nudity. That doesn't make it porn. In fact, if I wanted to see some nudity all I'd have to do is turn on the TV to a cable channel. You will find much more sexuality and nudity there than in any video game I've ever come across. I think it's strange that video games are like the last vestige where nudity or sexuality is frowned upon or treated as pornographic. Maybe it's because video games are interactive, and that is what weirds people out, rather than watching a sex scene on TV or in a movie. If we treat video games as a form of art, which I would argue they can be, then I see nothing wrong with including all elements of the human experience in the art form, which includes sexuality. It always fascinates me how people become more uptight and concerned with nudity than they do with the graphic violence that is portrayed in every video game. 

[Sylvianus]

You really shouldn't take seriously what they say on this board about nudity and sexuality in video games. Really.

[TK514]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

TK514 wrote...

I don't really see the difference between a mature rated game and a mature rated movie. I don't watch a movie, see a tasteful lovemaking scene and think 'they only put this in because we need to up the porn levels'. So why would a game like Dragon Age be any different? I don't believe I'm expecting anything more out of Dragon Age the Game than I would feel appropriate in Dragon Age the Movie, and considerably less than could be found in books of the same genre, where love making is usually described fairly blatantly through he use of euphemism.

Sure, if I wanted porn then the Internet is just a URL away, but love scenes (in games, books, and novels) done well aren't porn.

You hit the nail on the head, Sir. If I buy a game thats rated mature (usually says 18+ on it), then I automatically see it the same way as an R-rated movie.

And all r-rated movies do not necessarily have to have sex. Violence alone can raise it to that level. Sex is only one part of the M+ rated definition. It does not mean that the movie has to contain it.

The definition for Mature is Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

Nowhere is nudity mentioned. The AO rating is Titles rated AO (Adults Only) have content that should only be played by persons 18 years and older. Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity.

The R-rating (including NC-17) states  contains some adult material. An R-rated motion picture may include adult themes, adult activity, hard language, intense or persistent violence, sexually-oriented nudity, drug abuse or other elements.

Under the ESRB rating AO would equate to R (including NC-17) not Mature. Mature actually equates more to PG-13.

Since we're discussing sex scenes, I thought it would be reasonable to assume we were then discussing movies that contained sex scenes.  Violence is an entirely different topic, and really has no bearing on this discussion.

But since you insist, I'll be more explicit:

If I can watch a mature oriented movie with situations that lead to showing a tasteful lovemaking scene, then why shouldn't I be able to play a mature oriented game with similar situations and expect to see a similarly tasteful lovemaking scene?  Ultimately, both movies and video games are audiovisual storytelling mediums with the only difference being a degree of interactivity in how the story plays out.

I seriously doubt anyone here is asking for scenes where Big McLargehuge and Ivanna D'You are going at it in a series of camera-sees-all positions.  I'm have no doubt there are games that cater to that audience, and DA/ME don't qualify.

[Cutlass Jack]

Taint Master wrote...

I'm ambivalent towards the subject, but I'm surprised at how up tight some people are over virtual nudity.

Full frontal nudity and explicit sex scenes aren't exactly uncommon in some of the most critically acclaimed films, but they aren't considered porn (Monster's Ball comes to mind as I just saw that recently). Why should a cinematic game, particularly one of Bioware's impeccable quality, be any different?

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Virtual nudity. This is the series with Desire Demons after all, and even Victoria's Secret would be challenged to make a wonderbra that could contain the Broodmother.


What it has everything to with is RP options being limited because they are forced to do elaborate cutscenes featuring sex that really aren't necessary. These scenes take resources to make. Which means they'd have to severely limit who you could play and who you could romance based on resources they could devote to it.

And also it completely removes player freedom as to what happened during those fades to black. Everyone has different tastes in that area. One player might imagine it was hot sweaty sex with an oiled nug and a spatula, while another player finds kissing and spooning to be a tad more romantic. Both these players are served by a fade.

Leaving some things to the imagination is a good thing when dealing with a player created protaganist. I'd like to think roleplayers have very healthy imaginations.

[Squeeze the Fish]

The sex-scene as a culmination of a relationship can be a double-edged sword. Done right (I’ll use ME1 as an example), it can have profoundly emotional impact. I recall the first time I watched the fem!Shep x Kaidan scene, I was flooded by warm and fuzzies. Kaidan is not even my favorite LI, but I thought the scene was well done and accomplished what it set out to accomplish.

Then we have DAO, which was a little on the awkward side and had me feeling distinctly less warm and fuzzy and detracted somewhat from what was supposed to be the “culmination sequence” of relationship.

It’s a fine line to be sure, and that is so subjective makes it even more difficult to find that “ah-ha” zone. All I’m looking for is that “culmination”, something that signifies that, yes, we’ve accomplished something here. It doesn’t have to be with sex scene, but I would like it to feel as important as one.

And I know there’s an argument to be made about how sex does not carry the emotional impact that it once did (for some), but that's not really the point. I see relationship progression as something that happens in stages and I'm simply using sex as an example of that final stage. It's not necessarily about what is used for the finale, as long as we actually get there.

Modifié par Squeeze the Fish, 15 novembre 2012 - 07:38 .

[mousestalker]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Leaving some things to the imagination is a good thing when dealing with a player created protaganist. I'd like to think roleplayers have very healthy imaginations.

Judging from posters on BSN, unhealthy imaginations is probably the better descriptor.

[Redbelle]

Considering that alot of BW gamers grew up with their games, I'd have to vote for either nudity, or highly suggestive content.

Or let me put this another way.

If our hero's want to have sex/make love/screw each other's brains out. Whatever the context of the mating, it should fit with the context of the relationship betwen the two individuals. And if the relationship has the option for the two hero's to have sex. Then it should not be a chaste affair.

Previous entries gave the option of not consumating the relationship. So that could be a chaste resolution to the romance. But should the PC roleplay through the romance into a fiery forbidden love / destiny cannot keep us apart then, simply because BW have done so in the past. The resolution of that should not be kept from the PC.

[Cutlass Jack]

mousestalker wrote...
Judging from posters on BSN, unhealthy imaginations is probably the better descriptor.

Touche! Well played.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Redbelle wrote...

Considering that alot of BW gamers grew up with their games, I'd have to vote for either nudity, or highly suggestive content.

Or let me put this another way.

If our hero's want to have sex/make love/screw each other's brains out. Whatever the context of the mating, it should fit with the context of the relationship betwen the two individuals. And if the relationship has the option for the two hero's to have sex. Then it should not be a chaste affair.

Previous entries gave the option of not consumating the relationship. So that could be a chaste resolution to the romance. But should the PC roleplay through the romance into a fiery forbidden love / destiny cannot keep us apart then, simply because BW have done so in the past. The resolution of that should not be kept from the PC.

So you have to be able to SEE the pixel bodies crashing into one another or it's just not believable that the two characters have a lot of sex?

My male Shepard romanced Kaidan in ME3.  As we all know, Shepard's love scenes only take place before he/she is about head into the life or death situation at the end of the games.  While I did kind of like to see my male Shepard finally being able to tumble around with the biotic of his dreams, there was another bit of dialogue before that all happened, shortly after they hooked up, that was suggesting that they were already sleeping together though no cutscene had taken place yet.  And really?  I was satisfied with just hearing that.   It was a cute piece of dialogue that touched upon a "mature" subject.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 15 novembre 2012 - 07:48 .

[Taint Master]

Requiem1289 wrote...

If we treat video games as a form of art, which I would argue they can be, then I see nothing wrong with including all elements of the human experience in the art form, which includes sexuality.

Absolutely!  In fact I think one would be hard pressed to deny the artistry involved in constructing games like this.  I hope more people adopt this line of thinking as the genre progresses.

[cindercatz]

brushyourteeth wrote...

cindercatz wrote...


Aside, violence is not and never was the point of DA or BioWare. It's about storytelling, character, and setting. Drama. Do you buy their product for the combat or is that one reason among many? Is that your primary interest? Probably not.

Okay, I think first I'd like to say thank you, and that I'm really sorry that my comment disappointed you!!

I should clarify: what I mean is that a lot of the comments that have been made were done simply out of a puerile interest in sex. You can't deny that, and you can't deny that it reflects badly on the gamer community that we're always asking these gamemaking professionals to please set aside whatever plans they actually had for their creation, and instead focus on more sex. It advances the stereotype (even though I, as a relatively normal real-life gamer don't buy it).

Now, if you're asking me what my real opinion is, I'll give it honestly, and I hope you'll forgive me if it's too different from yours: you can't convince me that any time someone asks for more sex, they aren't doing it because they want to be tittilated. I've tried to make that make sense in my head and it just doesn't. So if my preference is more of whatever the DA team can give us that's important to me, and less of in-game sex (which isn't), then of course I'm going to say I just don't want it. Then others come into the forums and loudly demand that my favorite game series earn their M rating by giving them more boobies. Again, that's not everyone in the fanbase, but it's loud enough to be annoying. Your worst enemies on this issue are the ones who agree with you but with different motives.

And while I don't think that sex scenes should be banned from R-rated movies, they also shouldn't be required on the basis that the movie has an R-rating already and it will make some of the fans happy.

Okay, so having said that, I'll say this: your desire for more explicit sex in the next game doesn't change my opinion of you, even if my opinion isn't going to change about how unnecessary I think it is. 


and for the record (since you asked), I am still pissed about the nudity in Game of Thrones. I read the books, and they were explicit enough without HBO writing in unnecessary character and unnecessary extra scenes just for the purpose of arousing (literally) a larger fanbase of people who aren't interested in the story, but are interested in breasts. That's pandering, and it cheapens the story, and I'd never ever want that for DA. 

Thanks for the honest response very much.  I'm not going to try to change your general opinion here, but I think I can clarify a little bit myself. Long post ahead, bare with me.

On your first point I won't argue. I don't think, however, that it's as simple as all that. This is the internet, after all, where anybody who's really interested in puerient content is literally a few clicks away if that's what they really wanted. There must be more to it than that, right? I don't think most people are necessarily completely fluent in how they express their opinion, and I also don't think "interest in sex" necessarily equals "primarily interested in sex". Obviously there are some that are, and I won't argue that the occasional badly expressed opinion doesn't hurt our cause here. To me, it's like when David Gaider comes on the board and reminds people that "emotional content", while helpful in that it expresses a reaction or a desire, an emotional response to one issue or another, isn't necessarily helpful in parsing out exactly why they feel that way, or what exactly they're responding to. I don't think most of the responses in this thread really fall under that category, though. There are a couple. I do see a lot of metaphorical hand slapping over simple nudity, however, which is a response I take exception to in our society in general.

I also won't argue about tittilation being a factor, but I want to explain that it's only a fraction of what's really going on. I'll say here I don't think some tittilation is a bad thing for drama, quite the opposite in the right context. I also don't believe that tittilation is the purpose or primary gain of the kinds of scenes I'm advocating. It does serve as an adrenaline booster, a physiological tuning fork, in certain kinds of scenes. It helps to heighten the (non-sexual) arousal of a scene like a strong love scene, emphasis on love, with close ups of the eyes and lips rather than the '****** and hips', an emphasis on intimacy, bringing a rush of endorphins and a heightened focus, not a loss of focus and heightened sexual arousal. A good love scene like this would tune you in to the nuance of your characters, how they held each other, how their gaze followed, what they said to each other totally unguarded. And yes, they should most definitely talk. And breathe. Not moan in the dark or substitute a few jokes. A good love scene characterizes both the characters themselves and the relationship between them. You feel practically every second of it. It's not just intellectually noting it or getting a short chuckle like they are now. You couldn't just speed through it or treat it as superflous as they mostly are now.

Then of course there's the other kinds of scenes I brought up with the example of the Trials of Andraste flame trial. In my playthrough, I didn't assume the flame would remove my characters clothes. I just read the enscription, I saw the flame, and I assumed it was a cleansing fire, a test of faith and honesty. So I removed my own character's clothes, set everybody else to hold their position, and proceeded to walk my blood spattered, embattled city elf right into a wall of fire. Imagine now if that hadn't had the out of place underwear and were treated as a dramatic cinematic moment like it should be, and your companions didn't just magically appear on the other side of the flame with you in the same condition. You actually ritually dress in silence, with the focus on your expression on your face, your boots as you slip them on, your gloves, a companion actually assisting in fastening the straps of your heavy armor if you wore that. In the background, you pan across the expressions, demeanors, and in some cases modesty of your companions, or the nonchalant disdain of Morrigan for the whole thing. There's a lot of characterization that takes place, the scene is much stronger, and it's in no way puerient.

I've seen someone bring up Return to Ostagar in the past. Imagine if instead of Cailan's bloodstained body hanging in its loincloth, he were nude, all traces of his former life fading away in the time since the Fall of Ostagar, metaphorically stripped of his humanity. That would be a far more shocking, impactful scene, I think. There are a lot of powerful ways to use nudity effectively, and it shouldn't be avoided just because somebody's got a negative bias sight unseen.

I left the single quote of mine up there. I'm going to remix it a little bit.

"Aside, tittilation is not and never was the point of nudity in a Dragon Age or BioWare game. It's about storytelling, character, setting. Drama. Do you have nudity for the tittilation, or is that one factor among many? Is that your primary interest? Probably not."

[happy_daiz]

You know, I have to wonder what the actual designers and animators of DA/BW think of all this nekkid conversation and demand. I mean, do they get a directive from up above saying, "the fans spoke, and they want more raunch"? Then the designers try to wrangle their pixels into compromising positions?

The whole thing is just weird.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 15 novembre 2012 - 07:46 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

It's silly that cyclical genocide is accepted in BW games, but showing a nipple is not. It's the false sense of a "Disney-like decapitation for the whole family" feeling that bothers me more than showing the actual sex scene.

[Cutlass Jack]

happy_daiz wrote...

You know, I have to wonder what the actual designers and animators of DA/BW think of all this nekkid conversation and demand. I mean, do they get a directive from up above saying, "the fans spoke, and they want more raunch"? Then the designers try to wrangle their pixels into compromising positions?

The whole thing is just weird.

No need to wonder. They shake their heads sadly, bang their heads on the table and wonder if its friday yet.

Meanwhile a few more enterprising members of the team wonder if hiring pornstars for "mocap" would count as a business expense.

[upsettingshorts]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It's silly that cyclical genocide is accepted in BW games, but showing a nipple is not. It's the false sense of a "Disney-like decapitation for the whole family" feeling that bothers me more than showing the actual sex scene.

It's silly that scores of posters continue to misrepresent the arguments against virtual nudity and sex scenes in games as being one of self-censorship, or advocacy of censorship, it's almost as if such posters are both arrogant and dismissive of opposing views.

[Sylvianus]

Actually, that's quite false about the actors. I've seen an interview with Jennifer hale and the actress who voiced Liara and they seemed very confortable and entertained with the love and sex scenes, while talking about them ! There's nothing wrong with that, why would they be ashamed ?

Video games ( voiced with cinematics ) aren't really different from movies. Don't know why it becomes suddenly a big deal in a game with a focus on the story and the companions.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:11 .

[John Epler]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It's silly that cyclical genocide is accepted in BW games, but showing a nipple is not. It's the false sense of a "Disney-like decapitation for the whole family" feeling that bothers me more than showing the actual sex scene.

While it's fun to build strawmen and loudly proclaim that it's our sense of hypocritical puritan morality that's holding us back, as was mentioned, we simply don't feel that the resources required for building realistic-looking sex scenes for a wide variety of characters (because remember, you have options both in terms of who the other party is as well as your own gender, which is an enormous cost multiplier versus a single-protagonist game with limited partners) are a good use of said resources.

Other companies are free to choose how they allocate resources differently. I'm not suggesting one is better or worse than the other, but again - it's not something we choose to do. You are free to ascribe whatever sinister motivations to that that you wish, as I am sure many will.

Modifié par John Epler, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:02 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It's silly that cyclical genocide is accepted in BW games, but showing a nipple is not. It's the false sense of a "Disney-like decapitation for the whole family" feeling that bothers me more than showing the actual sex scene.

It's silly that scores of posters continue to misrepresent the arguments against virtual nudity and sex scenes in games as being one of self-censorship, or advocacy of censorship, it's almost as if such posters are both arrogant and dismissive of opposing views.

Ah. Yes. You love to turn arguments into insults, don't you?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:01 .

[upsettingshorts]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It's silly that cyclical genocide is accepted in BW games, but showing a nipple is not. It's the false sense of a "Disney-like decapitation for the whole family" feeling that bothers me more than showing the actual sex scene.

It's silly that scores of posters continue to misrepresent the arguments against virtual nudity and sex scenes in games as being one of self-censorship, or advocacy of censorship, it's almost as if such posters are both arrogant and dismissive of opposing views.

Ah. Yes. You love turn arguments into insults, don't you?

No, you miss the point.

By drawing attention to your misrepresentation, I am attempting to remove noise from the argument.  What do I mean by "noise?"  I mean things like your post.

You're presenting a counterargument to a non-existent assertion.  By doing so, you are encouraging people to explain, yet again that the question at hand is not one of censorship.  By doing so, you fail to actually engage in the argument honestly.  

It is a straw man.  Straw men are easily avoided by those who are looking for them, but many people aren't, and by continuing to prop them up and take them down, you're wasting everyone's time and yes, disrespecting the actual arguments being presented against sex scenes.  

If you feel insulted by this, than I suggest you stop taking things so personally and try to read what people who aren't terribly interested in, or are actively against, sex scenes in games are actually saying.  Because I'm pretty sure I'd be insulted if my arguments were routinely misrepresented by you or others.  Oh wait, they are.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:05 .

[thats1evildude]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It's silly that cyclical genocide is accepted in BW games, but showing a nipple is not. It's the false sense of a "Disney-like decapitation for the whole family" feeling that bothers me more than showing the actual sex scene.

It's a fallacy to state that because the Dragon Age games contain graphic violence, they should also contain depictions of nudity.

Violence is core to the Dragon Age series. It is the means by which the majority of conflicts are resolved and how the plot is advanced. Characters gain experience and attain abilities to do violence more effectively. You carry no other equipment that does not in some way aid your ability to do violence.

Romances have always been secondary to the series. They're a nice side dish, but the main course is and will always be violence.

If this was a pornographic game, then nudity would be a must because it's, y'know, porn. Though some porn games have violence, demanding Dragon Age to feature porn because it has violence is like demanding a porn series have violence because it already has porn.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:08 .

[Redbelle]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Considering that alot of BW gamers grew up with their games, I'd have to vote for either nudity, or highly suggestive content.

Or let me put this another way.

If our hero's want to have sex/make love/screw each other's brains out. Whatever the context of the mating, it should fit with the context of the relationship betwen the two individuals. And if the relationship has the option for the two hero's to have sex. Then it should not be a chaste affair.

Previous entries gave the option of not consumating the relationship. So that could be a chaste resolution to the romance. But should the PC roleplay through the romance into a fiery forbidden love / destiny cannot keep us apart then, simply because BW have done so in the past. The resolution of that should not be kept from the PC.

So you have to be able to SEE the pixel bodies crashing into one another or it's just not believable that the two characters have a lot of sex?

My male Shepard romanced Kaidan in ME3.  As we all know, Shepard's love scenes only take place before he/she is about head into the life or death situation at the end of the games.  While I did kind of like to see my male Shepard finally being able to tumble around with the biotic of his dreams, there was another bit of dialogue before that all happened, shortly after they hooked up, that was suggesting that they were already sleeping together though no cutscene had taken place yet.  And really?  I was satisfied with just hearing that.   It was a cute piece of dialogue that touched upon a "mature" subject.

What you just described there was a romance scene in keeping with the context of a character. Kaiden is not exactly a red hot latin loverboy, so, not having a romance scene where you are thrown against a bulkhead is in keeping with the character. That sort of thing was reserved for Jack, back in ME2.

That said. In my earlier post, I never said we had to see the act.............. just that any such act should be in keeping with the character and the nature of the relationship.

The nature of the relationship is probably the important part I should explain. Just because you can roleplay your way towards having sex with a character, does not mean that is the only significant act towards cementing a relationship. Imagine a sliding scale where on one end you have sex, and on the other you don't. Sex is replaced by......... I dunno, romantic affection. Regardless, the romance blooms and the characters are together. The option for how that romance is handled at that point is down to the player.

If you see a character as someone to be close to, but not in a sexual way the game should give you the option to role play in that regard. And it should also work the other way too if you do see the character as a sexual creature.