293 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

[quote]cindercatz wrote...

A context, not the context. All I see from a number of posters are
shaming behaviour and judgemental bias. I'm not, nor is practically
anybody I've ever seen on BSN in these threads, suggesting porn, or even
explicit sex in an artistic context. I suggesting being true to your
art and not your social bias. Nothing explicit is required to accomplish
that.

[/quote]

The context in this thread was set when op made TW2 the achievement bar for love scenes. and no if you're going to say it Tw2's sex scenes were not tasteful and emotionally engaging.It was raunchy virtual porn, anyone claiming otherwise is full of it.

[quote] Are you implying that video games cannot be art, then? I disagree. Video games are an artistic medium in exactly the same way that film or sequential art is. Art meant to convey a story and an accompanying emotional experience. Even still art often engages in the same exercise. "A picture is worth a thousand words." So is a painting. So is sketch art. etc. The appropriate context is determined by the expression conveyed, not by the medium. Even puzzle games and others that have no story can be a form of art IMO, meant to engage and evoke a certain emotional experience. [/quote]

Of course video games in and of themselves are artistic expressions of their creators, I'm not debating that. That doesn't mean however everything within that game is going to be considered artistic. No matter how you spin it, the depiction of two people in the act is no more artistic than the blank canvas spectators may fawn over and call a masterpiece in a art gallery. [/quote]

[quote] No, it's only voyeurism if your intent is simply to watch others to arouse yourself sexually (or otherwise in specific non-sexual ways, such as gawkers at a car wreck). The whole point in these stories we play is to engage us emotionally and intellectually, and to take the audience on that emotional journey. Any piece of entertainment that has no emotional value isn't worth my investment. So the question becomes how and to what degree you do that, not whether it's relevant.[/quote]

Most of the regulars here aren't asking for more nudity because they want a deep emotional journey. no sorry, just not the deep emotional or in some cases intellectual types. They just want to get their sox off. I've been on the bsn too long and seen too many of these threads and other related topics such as "I should be able to strip my character down in the buff if I want, because not being able to restricts my player freedom". I remember that thread fondly because when I went against the tide, someone called me a prude and suggested I had a tree up my... o nvm.Bsn sound deep to you?

None of that applies to you however, because I don't believe I've seen any of your post, so I couldn't gauge an opinion on that matter.

But anyways, you don't need nudity to have a deep emotional connection with media. A naked body doesn't make a movie, game, show, ect. I'm not even sure how that adds to the complexity of the piece.

I'd also like to add that there is nothing intellectually stimulating about watching other people do the deed.If there is, feel free to clarify.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It's silly that cyclical genocide is accepted in BW games, but showing a nipple is not. It's the false sense of a "Disney-like decapitation for the whole family" feeling that bothers me more than showing the actual sex scene.

It's silly that scores of posters continue to misrepresent the arguments against virtual nudity and sex scenes in games as being one of self-censorship, or advocacy of censorship, it's almost as if such posters are both arrogant and dismissive of opposing views.

Ah. Yes. You love turn arguments into insults, don't you?

No, you miss the point.

By drawing attention to your misrepresentation, I am attempting to remove noise from the argument.  What do I mean by "noise?"  I mean things like your post.

You're presenting a counterargument to a non-existent assertion.  By doing so, you are encouraging people to explain, yet again that the question at hand is not one of censorship.  By doing so, you fail to actually engage in the argument honestly.  

It is a straw man.  Straw men are easily avoided by those who are looking for them, but many people aren't, and by continuing to prop them up and take them down, you're wasting everyone's time and yes, disrespecting the actual arguments being presented against sex scenes.  

If you feel insulted by this, than I suggest you stop taking things so personally and try to read what people who aren't terribly interested in, or are actively against, sex scenes in games are actually saying.  Because I'm pretty sure I'd be insulted if my arguments were routinely misrepresented by you or others.  Oh wait, they are.

You can try to turn it into insults, but you fail. It's your "arrogant" and "honestly" part that I liked to highlight. You should be able to do better than that. Then in your reply you start again with "noise", "wasting time", and "disrespecting". Where does your aggression come from?

[upsettingshorts]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

You can try to turn it into insults, but you fail. It's your "arrogant" and "honestly" part that I liked to highlight. You should be able to do better than that. Then in your reply you start again with "noise", "wasting time", and "disrespecting". 

Well, it's either dishonest or ignorant.  I like to assume people know what they're doing when they prop up strawmen, guess I was wrong.  Ignorance it is then. 

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Where does your aggression come from?

People misrepresenting positions and then trying to claim the high ground when they're called on it.

Anyway, enjoy railing against the censorship nobody is advocating. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:18 .

[Rawgrim]

classic trolling. Turn a discussion into an argument, and make sure the thread gets closed. Won`t have to listen to other peoples views that way.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

You can try to turn it into insults, but you fail. It's your "arrogant" and "honestly" part that I liked to highlight. You should be able to do better than that. Then in your reply you start again with "noise", "wasting time", and "disrespecting". 

Well, it's either dishonest or ignorant.  I like to assume people know what they're doing when they prop up strawmen, guess I was wrong.  Ignorance it is then. 

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Where does your aggression come from?

People misrepresenting positions and then trying to claim the high ground when they're called on it.

Too bad you don't like my initial statement. Relax.

[Emzamination]

Rawgrim wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I don`t think they should add "******" just for the sake of it. But they shouldn`t shy away from it either. The game has a mature ending, if a mature person gets offended by seeing a pair of breasts, its hisher problem. Odd that seeing a pair of breasts getting kissed is offensive to people, but seeing a breast get shot is not.

Again I repeat maturity and nudity are not synomous.

A mature person would understand that mature just means  adult, and being adult alone doesn't entitle nudity. The fact that you're suggesting just because you're mature, you must have nudity shows a major lack of maturity. You just aren't ready to expierence that yet.

If you wish to see "Breast getting kissed" there are games to feel that vice. I suggesting expending your needs there.

Did you even read my post? I said "I don`t think they should add ****** just for the sake of it". Not even one place do I suggest that I MUST have nudity.

Just for the record: i have a 15 year old son. So yeah...I am certainly not ready to experience nudity in a video game...

If you want to insult someone, at least read what the person has posted, before quoting them.

Of course I read your post. You did indeed say that "I don`t think they should add "******" just for the sake of it" then you went on to add "But they shouldn`t shy away from it either" "if a mature person gets offended by seeing a pair of breasts, its his/her problem"

If you want to be double talk and feel you're being indifferent, that's your business but don't get offended and act like I misinterpreted what you were really saying.

[Fraevar]

I would much rather have a fade to black that felt meaningful and fit the tone than the silly in-between, PG-13 nudity of ME2. The ME2 way of having characters animated as performing sexual acts while still clothed took me out of the game much more than the fade to blacks did.

[Little Princess Peach]

I don't understand why you want sex clips in a game
in starwars old republic, it just fades to back and leaves the player to use there imagination

[Rawgrim]

Emzamination wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I don`t think they should add "******" just for the sake of it. But they shouldn`t shy away from it either. The game has a mature ending, if a mature person gets offended by seeing a pair of breasts, its hisher problem. Odd that seeing a pair of breasts getting kissed is offensive to people, but seeing a breast get shot is not.

Again I repeat maturity and nudity are not synomous.

A mature person would understand that mature just means  adult, and being adult alone doesn't entitle nudity. The fact that you're suggesting just because you're mature, you must have nudity shows a major lack of maturity. You just aren't ready to expierence that yet.

If you wish to see "Breast getting kissed" there are games to feel that vice. I suggesting expending your needs there.

Did you even read my post? I said "I don`t think they should add ****** just for the sake of it". Not even one place do I suggest that I MUST have nudity.

Just for the record: i have a 15 year old son. So yeah...I am certainly not ready to experience nudity in a video game...

If you want to insult someone, at least read what the person has posted, before quoting them.

Of course I read your post. You did indeed say that "I don`t think they should add "******" just for the sake of it" then you went on to add "But they shouldn`t shy away from it either" "if a mature person gets offended by seeing a pair of breasts, its his/her problem"

If you want to be double talk and feel you're being indifferent, that's your business but don't get offended and act like I misinterpreted what you were really saying.

What I meant by the post is exactly what I wrote. there was no "double-talk" intended at all. You clearly added a double meaning to what I wrote. Judging by your first reply to it, anyway. You just took stuff that wasn`t there, and made accusations and whatsnot from it.

[upsettingshorts]

Rawgrim wrote...

classic trolling. Turn a discussion into an argument, and make sure the thread gets closed. Won`t have to listen to other peoples views that way.

Yes, that's exactly what AngryFrozenWater was doing.  

Personally, if sex scenes serve characterization and can be done well, I've got no problem with them.  But I hardly think the sexploitation of The Witcher or the laughably terrible DA:O scenes are good examples to follow.  The scene in Assassin's Creed Brotherhood would be a much better place to start.

Mass Effect 1's was okay.  Though the immediate aftermath with fully-clothed Shepard sitting watching naked!romance option laying in bed was more than a tad unsettling.  

As far as DA2 and ME2-3 go, they seem to be going for "about to have sex scenes" rather than "sex scenes" and I think that's fine.  Not because I'm against the concept of nudity, just that I think it's always terribly executed.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:33 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Redbelle wrote...

What you just described there was a romance scene in keeping with the context of a character. Kaiden is not exactly a red hot latin loverboy, so, not having a romance scene where you are thrown against a bulkhead is in keeping with the character. That sort of thing was reserved for Jack, back in ME2.

That said. In my earlier post, I never said we had to see the act.............. just that any such act should be in keeping with the character and the nature of the relationship.

The nature of the relationship is probably the important part I should explain. Just because you can roleplay your way towards having sex with a character, does not mean that is the only significant act towards cementing a relationship. Imagine a sliding scale where on one end you have sex, and on the other you don't. Sex is replaced by......... I dunno, romantic affection. Regardless, the romance blooms and the characters are together. The option for how that romance is handled at that point is down to the player.

If you see a character as someone to be close to, but not in a sexual way the game should give you the option to role play in that regard. And it should also work the other way too if you do see the character as a sexual creature.

What you're describing would require too many resources for something that's optional content to begin with.  I'd rather the visuals remain in good taste (read: not weird pixel bodies rolling around together and not animating well because of some limitation, or the weirdness of Witcher and DA:O) rather than taking me out of the moment.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:31 .

[Scott Sion]

I really feel like people aren't getting the point of this thread.

All I want is at least a ME3 type romance scene instead of fade to black. If my options are fade to black or no scene at all then I don't want the scene. I don't want the scene to fufill any sick sexual fantasies.

I'm a little annoyed that nudity in a video game causes a huge riot. If video games companies want to be taken seriously they need to start pushing the envelope in some areas. If you have a 15 year old kid and you don't want him to see partial nudity or full nuditry there's an easy solution. Don't let him play the game. It's not Bioware's job to guard your children from things like this, it's your job.

I'd also like to say one more time that my biggest problem here is the fade to black nonsense.

Modifié par plnero, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:32 .

[Rawgrim]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

I don't understand why you want sex clips in a game
in starwars old republic, it just fades to back and leaves the player to use there imagination

Its not about wanting sex clips at all. Its about the love scenes, IF there are any, to fit with the rating of the game. If a character, like Morrigan, who never wears a bra throughout the entire game, suddenly puts one on when she is having sex, it feels cencored and toned down so it won\\ t offend people. Wich is wierd when gutting people and chopping their heads off is not "offensive at all".

For the record: I am happy with no sex scenes at all, really. Fade to black works well enough. I would rather have that than a very toned down scene. ME1, I think, did them very well.

[Dhiro]

As long as we still get the Wailing Woman, idgaf

Modifié par Dhiro, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:33 .

[Emzamination]

Rawgrim wrote...


What I meant by the post is exactly what I wrote. there was no "double-talk" intended at all. You clearly added a double meaning to what I wrote. Judging by your first reply to it, anyway. You just took stuff that wasn`t there, and made accusations and whatsnot from it.

Rawgrim wrote...

I don`t think they should add "******" just
for the sake of it. But they shouldn`t shy away from it either. The
game has a mature ending, if a mature person gets offended by seeing a
pair of breasts, its hisher problem. Odd that seeing a pair of breasts
getting kissed is offensive to people, but seeing a breast get shot is
not.

I don't need to add anything.Those are your own words, not mine. Man up and own your statements or don't make them at all.I'm done with this.

[Rawgrim]

Emzamination wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


What I meant by the post is exactly what I wrote. there was no "double-talk" intended at all. You clearly added a double meaning to what I wrote. Judging by your first reply to it, anyway. You just took stuff that wasn`t there, and made accusations and whatsnot from it.

Rawgrim wrote...

I don`t think they should add "******" just
for the sake of it. But they shouldn`t shy away from it either. The
game has a mature ending, if a mature person gets offended by seeing a
pair of breasts, its hisher problem. Odd that seeing a pair of breasts
getting kissed is offensive to people, but seeing a breast get shot is
not.

I don't need to add anything.Those are your own words, not mine. Man up and own your statements or don't make them at all.I'm done with this.

How is this double talking? They shouldn`t add nudity just for the sake of it. But if they do have sex scenes, or whatever, it would be more fitting if they didn`t tone it down way much. Like in DA:O when Morrigan puts on a bra before sex. Nothing to man up about that one, is there? I`ve made the same comment, in different wording, several times in this thread.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Emzamination wrote...

I don't need to add anything.Those are your own words, not mine. Man up and own your statements or don't make them at all.I'm done with this.

You are misunderstanding what Rawgrim is saying. By a lot.

@Rawgrim: Emzam likes to assert that other people don't make sense even when their points are sufficiently articulated.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:50 .

[Rawgrim]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I don't need to add anything.Those are your own words, not mine. Man up and own your statements or don't make them at all.I'm done with this.

You are misunderstanding what Rawgrim is saying. By a lot.

Thanks. I was thinking I was hitting some language barrier.

[upsettingshorts]

The Morrigan example seems to actually be an argument in favor of continuity than solid evidence towards a particular notion of how BioWare feels about nudity.

There's only one "unclothed" female model in the game - elves and dwarves are stretched humans - and it has underwear, with Morrigan this introduces a continuity error as she doesn't wear a bra with her iconic outfit. With everyone else, there is no continuity error. So... Morrigan is essentially an outlier and not part of some pattern. It's a bad example.

That said, I don't think she's super necessary for your argument anyway.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 novembre 2012 - 08:41 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The scene in Assassin's Creed Brotherhood would be a much better place to start.

That was about the only such scene in a game I really felt got it right. Of course its with a very set protaganist, with a very set partner in very set circumstances at a specific point of the story. That sort of thing would be near impossible to manage as satisfying with a player created protaganist and multiple romantic choices.

And given the choice of a player created protaganist and RP choices over a really well done sex scene, I'll always choose the former.

[Dhiro]

Emzamination wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...


What I meant by the post is exactly what I wrote. there was no "double-talk" intended at all. You clearly added a double meaning to what I wrote. Judging by your first reply to it, anyway. You just took stuff that wasn`t there, and made accusations and whatsnot from it.

Rawgrim wrote...

I don`t think they should add "******" just
for the sake of it. But they shouldn`t shy away from it either. The
game has a mature ending, if a mature person gets offended by seeing a
pair of breasts, its hisher problem. Odd that seeing a pair of breasts
getting kissed is offensive to people, but seeing a breast get shot is
not.

I don't need to add anything.Those are your own words, not mine. Man up and own your statements or don't make them at all.I'm done with this.

What I think Rawgrim means: "I don't think they should add "******" (=sexual content) just for the sake of it. But they shouldn't shy away from it (sexual content) either (as long as it isn't for the sake of it).

What I think you're getting from it: "I don't think they should add "******" for the sake of it. But they shouldn't shy away from adding ("******" for the sake of it) either."

Geralt version: "Boobies"

[Maria Caliban]

I liked the Dragon Age 2 sex scenes and would like more of that. If they have the zots to give us a shirtless Fenris or less-clothed Isabela, I'd like that as well.

[addiction21]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I don't need to add anything.Those are your own words, not mine. Man up and own your statements or don't make them at all.I'm done with this.

You are misunderstanding what Rawgrim is saying. By a lot.

Reading and comprehension? Emzamination has no need for such things.

[Emzamination]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I don't need to add anything.Those are your own words, not mine. Man up and own your statements or don't make them at all.I'm done with this.

You are misunderstanding what Rawgrim is saying. By a lot.

@Rawgrim: Emzam likes to assert that other people don't make sense evem when their points are sufficiently articulated.

No, I'm really not. What he said was they shouldn't add nude sex scenes just for the sake of it, which they would be since they haven't been needed thus far but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try to add them anyway.

^ He is taking 2 different stances.

@side note: sore spot?

[Rawgrim]

Emzamination wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I don't need to add anything.Those are your own words, not mine. Man up and own your statements or don't make them at all.I'm done with this.

You are misunderstanding what Rawgrim is saying. By a lot.

@Rawgrim: Emzam likes to assert that other people don't make sense evem when their points are sufficiently articulated.

No, I'm really not. What he said was they shouldn't add nude sex scenes just for the sake of it, which they would be since they haven't been needed thus far but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try to add them anyway.

^ He is taking 2 different stances.

@side note: sore spot?

I kind of spoonfed to you what I meant, though. Don`t let that stop you from digging yourself in deeper, though.