66 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarielle]

Hello!

It's time for another SOU + HOTU playthrough. Unfortunately, I'm just as bad at making characters now as I was when the games first released, LOL.

I like charismatic characters. I love persuade. I also wanted to try an archer ... which I realize doesn't immediately scream awesome synergy. Would it be playable, though? If so, what should I take? I looked at the epic character builder site but it's hard to tell if those are meant to be playable and they give no instructions for playing those builds, so I didn't find much help there.

I looked at druid maybe; never played one, but I understand you have to buff yourself out the wazoo before fighting, which I was sort of hoping to avoid. I don't really want a character that requires stacking a bunch of buffs first to be effective. Is there any way to make this work? I'd appreciate some tips on class, must-have feats/spells etc.

I realize this is a very tall order. I'm not trying to be lazy, I just never could wrap my head around D&D rulesets.

[Sarielle]

Just so you guys know I'm trying, how is this build going to work out? It scares me a little linking Persuade with Intelligence, but it could have just been a slip up I suppose.

[Empyre65]

Here is an Arcane Archer build that I just played in SoU + The Nether Scrolls bridge module + HotU and I am currtently playing in the Sands of Fate series, which will bring me the rest of the way to level 40.
Sands of Fate 1
Sands of Fate 2
Sands of Fate 3

Copy-and-paste the build into the Notes tab in your journal, so you'll have the build right there in-game.

Resourceful Archer (Rogue 16 / Wizard 2 / Arcane Archer 22)
Elf, Any Alignment
Playable 1 - 40, PvM
Optimized for Sands of Fate

Abilities:
STR: 14
DEX: 18 (34)
CON: 12
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 10

Leveling Guide:
Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill
Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Rogue(1): Point Blank Shot
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Rogue(3): Weapon Focus: Longbow, {Uncanny Dodge I}
04: Rogue(4): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
05: Rogue(5)
06: Rogue(6): Weapon Finesse
07: Rogue(7)
08: Rogue(8): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
09: Wizard(1): Blind Fight, {Scribe Scroll}
10: Arcane Archer(1)
11: Arcane Archer(2)
12: Rogue(9): DEX+1, Improved Critical: Longbow, (DEX=21)
13: Arcane Archer(3)
14: Arcane Archer(4)
15: Arcane Archer(5): Rapid Shot
16: Arcane Archer(6): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
17: Rogue(10): Improved Evasion
18: Arcane Archer(7): Called Shot
19: Arcane Archer(8)
20: Arcane Archer(9): DEX+1, (DEX=23)
21: Rogue(11): Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow
22: Arcane Archer(10)
23: Rogue(12)
24: Arcane Archer(11): DEX+1, Great Dexterity I, (DEX=25)
25: Rogue(13): Defensive Roll
26: Arcane Archer(12)
27: Rogue(14): Epic Dodge
28: Arcane Archer(13): DEX+1, (DEX=26)
29: Arcane Archer(14): Great Dexterity II, (DEX=27)
30: Arcane Archer(15): Armor Skin
31: Arcane Archer(16)
32: Rogue(15): DEX+1, (DEX=28)
33: Arcane Archer(17): Great Dexterity III, (DEX=29)
34: Arcane Archer(18): Epic Prowess
35: Arcane Archer(19)
36: Arcane Archer(20): DEX+1, Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=31)
37: Rogue(16): Improved Sneak Attack I
38: Arcane Archer(21)
39: Arcane Archer(22): Great Dexterity V, Great Dexterity VI, (DEX=33)
40: Wizard(2): DEX+1, (DEX=34)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 320
Skillpoints: 330
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 20/17/35
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +9, Mind Effects: +2, Traps: +3
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 39 (melee), 53 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 32/35
Spell Casting: Wizard(1)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Disable Trap 40(44), Lore 35(37), Open Lock 40(52), Persuade 20(20), Search 40(44), Set Trap 5(19), Spellcraft 43(45), Spot 42(43), Tumble 40(52), UMD 25(25)

01: Disable Trap(4), Lore(4), Open Lock(4), Persuade(4), Search(4), Set Trap(4), Spot(4), Tumble(4), UMD(4), Save(4)
02: Disable Trap(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Spot(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(5)
03: Disable Trap(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spot(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(7)
04: Disable Trap(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spot(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(9)
05: Disable Trap(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spot(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(11)
06: Disable Trap(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spot(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(13)
07: Disable Trap(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spot(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(15)
08: Disable Trap(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spot(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(17)
09: Lore(1), Spellcraft(8), Save(12)
10: Lore(1), Spot(2), Save(15)
11: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(19)
12: Disable Trap(4), Lore(1), Open Lock(4), Persuade(4), Search(4), Spot(1), Tumble(4), UMD(4), Save(3)
13: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(7)
14: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(11)
15: Spot(1), Save(16)
16: Spot(1), Save(21)
17: Disable Trap(5), Open Lock(5), Persuade(5), Search(5), Spot(1), Tumble(5), UMD(5)
18: Lore(4), Spot(1), Save(1)
19: Spot(1), Save(6)
20: Spot(1), Save(11)
21: Disable Trap(4), Open Lock(4), Search(4), Spot(1), Tumble(4), UMD(4)
22: Lore(4), Spot(1), Save(1)
23: Disable Trap(2), Lore(1), Open Lock(2), Search(2), Spot(1), Tumble(2), UMD(1)
24: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(4)
25: Disable Trap(2), Lore(1), Open Lock(2), Search(2), Spot(1), Tumble(2), Save(4)
26: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(8)
27: Disable Trap(2), Lore(1), Open Lock(2), Search(2), Spot(1), Tumble(2), Save(8)
28: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(12)
29: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(16)
30: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(20)
31: Lore(1), Spot(1), Save(24)
32: Disable Trap(5), Lore(1), Open Lock(5), Search(5), Spot(1), Tumble(5), Save(12)
33: Spot(1), Save(17)
34: Spot(1), Save(22)
35: Spot(1), Save(27)
36: Spot(1), Save(32)
37: Disable Trap(5), Open Lock(5), Search(5), Spot(1), Tumble(5), Save(21)
38: Spot(1), Save(26)
39: Spot(1), Save(31)
40: Spellcraft(35)

Modifié par Empyre65, 16 novembre 2012 - 07:27 .

[Luminus]

Personally, I suggest Elven Bard. There's nothing charismatic about that Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Archer build.

The problem is that Arcane Archer doesn't have Bluff and Persuade as class skills. Just be a pure Bard.
You could either advance only Charisma or Dexterity. I suggest putting Charisma at 16 and then only advance Dexterity.
Bards don't really need so many spells or DCs like Sorcerers. You mainly buff yourself. Basically they are like Paladins. Use spells to buff yourself, not to attack or spam.

Use (Greater) Magic Weapon (though I am not sure if it works on bows), Mage Armor, Displacement, Cat's Grace, Haste, Warcry etc. Don't bother with offensive spells.
Also use your Bard Song, obviously. Lingering Song, Curse Song etc.

Naturally, choose tanks as companions. Dorna for example is a Cleric/Rogue. She can be both a tank/healer and a trapfinder. In HotU, you want Valen and Aribeth.

Specifically, have 10-12 STR, 16 DEX, 12-14 CON, 10-12 INT, 8-10 WIS and 16 CHA.
You don't need Wisdom as you advance Reflex and Will saves anyway, plus you can get Protection from Alignment for complete protection from mind-affecting spells.

For skills, you want Concentration, Persuade, Lore, Perform and maybe Use Magic Device? That covers the basics. Bluff, Appraise and Tumble are also nice to have. You could raise your INT to 14 for example, if you need more skill points.

Modifié par Luminus, 16 novembre 2012 - 11:42 .

[Shadooow]

Sarielle wrote...

Hello!

It's time for another SOU + HOTU playthrough. Unfortunately, I'm just as bad at making characters now as I was when the games first released, LOL.

I like charismatic characters. I love persuade. I also wanted to try an archer ... which I realize doesn't immediately scream awesome synergy. Would it be playable, though? If so, what should I take? I looked at the epic character builder site but it's hard to tell if those are meant to be playable and they give no instructions for playing those builds, so I didn't find much help there.

are you playing solo without henchmans? if not, you have to first decide which ones you will have, you already know which are available because you played this game already so even knowing this will help you very much, for example if you will play with deekin who is bard, why bother with bard AA?

Also, if you take henchies, you will be able to finish the game whether you have powerbuild or not.

To be honest, both proposed builds aren't usefull for OC. They are lvl 40 based which is useless for you because the game ends around 23lvl. So the really usefull and powerfull build would be such that takes this into consideration. That requires more often skill dumps than at lvl 40.

So my proposal: if you are not taking any bard henchman, go bard AA route, if you do take sorcerrer or paladin
either 8sorcerer 2paladin or 2fighter then AA
or 5paladin 2sorc then AA

how you take it is up to you, if you want to have this more like caster AA then you probably find more advantaging to take more sorc than 8levels, so be it you will lose extra attack at lvl 20, but that isnt such an issue in OC

also fighter would be better instead of paladin but take whatever suits your style, these few extra feats that fighter gives you won't make a life/death difference anyway

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 16 novembre 2012 - 12:10 .

[Luminus]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

So my proposal: if you are not taking any bard henchman, go bard AA route, if you do take sorcerrer or paladin
either 8sorcerer 2paladin or 2fighter then AA
or 5paladin 2sorc then AA

She specifically said she wants a charismatic archer with persuade, though.
The Paladin/Sorcerer/Arcane Archer build is solid but she will have crap Persuade and much fewer skills.
Plus, any high Charisma is wasted since her Sorc levels would be too few to make any use of it. And she wants to be an archer, so she needs high Dex on top of that.

A pure Elven Bard covers all the bases. Archer, charismatic, great utility, skills, spells and persuade. Let's not underestimate the Bard Song which gives even nicer bonuses, can be cast many times and affects your whole party.

Modifié par Luminus, 16 novembre 2012 - 12:34 .

[Luminus]

Here's another idea. Instead of Bard, go Elven Rogue and take 1 Shadowdancer level. You need Dodge and Mobility for it.
Relies less on spells and buffs and more on stealth and sneak attacks. For those enemies that cannot be defeated with sneak attacks, there's Use Magic Device. Use scrolls, wands, monk items etc.

Whatever build you use, you might want Weapon Focus, Improved Critical in Longbow and Rapid Shot feats.

Slippery Mind is pretty good for your sucky will saves.
For epic, Epic Dodge and Self-Concealment are pretty good, defensive feats.

Modifié par Luminus, 16 novembre 2012 - 01:09 .

[Shadooow]

well AFAIK paladin have persuade as a class skill, you can start with dexterity and charisma both at 16, and then take paladin as often you want skill dump into social skills (which are overestimated btw)

the wiz/AA is always better choice, but if it must be charisma based, why don't use the sorc/pala charisma synergy?

And I didnt said that bard AA is bad, but if you take deekin as your henchman, what is the second bard song for?

Lets not needlessly argue what is better if we don't know OP's priorities.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 16 novembre 2012 - 01:03 .

[Luminus]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

well AFAIK paladin have persuade as a class skill, you can start with dexterity and charisma both at 16, and then take paladin as often you want skill dump into social skills (which are overestimated btw)

the wiz/AA is always better choice, but if it must be charisma based, why don't use the sorc/pala charisma synergy?

And I didnt said that bard AA is bad, but if you take deekin as your henchman, what is the second bard song for?

Lets not needlessly argue what is better if we don't know OP's priorities.

Indeed but neither the Sorcerer, nor Arcane Archer has Persuade as class skills. So it will be quite low, making it worthless. You can pull it off if you max Charisma and go Paladin/rest Sorcerer but not for an archer.

I would suggest Dorna for both builds. If she makes a Bard, then Deekin is redundant as Dorna can tank and be the meatshield as well as cover trapfinding skills.
If she makes a Rogue, then again she needs a tank and have her focus only on Cleric training.

No argueing, I'm just trying to cover all the needs for her character.

The Rogue is pretty much perfect for what she asks. No buffing needed, tons of damage, tons of skills, much easier to play than Bards.

Modifié par Luminus, 16 novembre 2012 - 01:31 .

[Sarielle]

Luminus wrote...

Here's another idea. Instead of Bard, go Elven Rogue and take 1 Shadowdancer level. You need Dodge and Mobility for it.
Relies less on spells and buffs and more on stealth and sneak attacks. For those enemies that cannot be defeated with sneak attacks, there's Use Magic Device. Use scrolls, wands, monk items etc.

Whatever build you use, you might want Weapon Focus, Improved Critical in Longbow and Rapid Shot feats.

Slippery Mind is pretty good for your sucky will saves.
For epic, Epic Dodge and Self-Concealment are pretty good, defensive feats.

Would this allow for good persuade? I definitely like the idea of relying less heavily on buffing.

The bard also sounds interesting, but my last bard was a collossal failure (maybe because I didn't know how to play one, lol). Can you point me to a good build there?

As for henchmen, I usually took Deekin but I also like Dorna, but had never taken Xanos (so I thought I might this time). I don't have to, though. It's been so long I've forgotten what all of them say now anyways, which is the main reason I take henchmen.

Modifié par Sarielle, 16 novembre 2012 - 05:45 .

[MagicalMaster]

Are you planning on stopping after HotU? A combo AA/Bard would work just fine, but how many levels in each will depend on what the max level.

[Sarielle]

Nope, this is just to play SOU + HotU

[MagicalMaster]

Elf
Bard/Arcane Archer

14
16
12
14
8
14

Bards/AAs get 4 skill points per level.  Therefore, you'll get 6 per level and likely want to invest in these skills:

Bluff
Intimidate
Perform
Persuade
Spellcraft
Tumble

If you're willing, dropping some of the social skills (Bluff, Intimidate, Persuade) for Use Magic Device and/or Stealth could be beneficial.  Bard levels are taken frequently here to insure the social skills are kept as much up to date as possible.

All stat gains go to dexterity.

01 Ba/01 Point Blank Shot
02 Ba/02
03 Ba/03 Weapon Focus: Longbow
04 Ba/04
05 Ba/05
06 Ba/06 Rapid Shot
07 Ba/07
08 Ba/08
09 AA/01 Skill Focus: Social Skill
10 AA/02
11 Ba/09
12 AA/03 Skill Focus: Social Skill
13 AA/04
14 Ba/10
15 AA/05  Curse Song
16 AA/06
17 Ba/11
18 AA/07 Improved Critical: Longbow
19 AA/08
20 Ba/12
21 AA/09 Epic Reputation
22 AA/10
23 Ba/13
24 AA/11 Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow
25 AA/12
26 Ba/14
27 AA/13 Epic Prowess
28 AA/14 Great Dexterity II
29 Ba/15
30 AA/15 Armor Skin

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 16 novembre 2012 - 11:04 .

[Sarielle]

Hmm, that looks fun. I have done the intimidate route before, maybe I'll drop that for UMD (since that skill always opens up a lot of fun possibilities).

Any spells I really shouldn't pass up, other than some self-buffs?

Really appreciate the build!

Modifié par Sarielle, 16 novembre 2012 - 09:54 .

[MagicalMaster]

Not really. Improved Invis is the biggest one. Wounding Whispers and War Cry are good if you can do em. Mage Armor gives 1 AC.

I also forgot about Curse Song somehow, but if you're skipping Intimidate then grab that instead (edited previous post). Also, probably better to get Epic Skill Focus: Persuade instead of Epic Reputation if you're skipping Intimidate.

[Empyre65]

Somebody here said that HotU ends at level 23. No it doesn't. It ends at around level 27 or 28.
With my Rogue AA build, I told Dorna to level only as Cleric, and she became quite a powerhouse. Since I didn't drink a Clarity potion, she had to take on Herodis by herself, and she won.

[Sarielle]

Great! I'll probably fire this up after work tonight. It's funny, after all these years, after all the very pretty games I've played ... these still more than hold their own.

I'm guessing you guys are excited about the Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition? I actually never played 'em, been putting it off since I heard that was coming out. Really looking forward to playing a Chaotic Stupid Wild Mage with some real life friends, lol.

EDIT: I'm not against a rogue in concept, Empyre; I just really enjoy my conversation skills! lol The combat in these games is secondary for me, as long as I'm not a super gimp.

Modifié par Sarielle, 16 novembre 2012 - 11:59 .

[Luminus]

Sarielle wrote...

Would this allow for good persuade? I definitely like the idea of relying less heavily on buffing.

The bard also sounds interesting, but my last bard was a collossal failure (maybe because I didn't know how to play one, lol). Can you point me to a good build there?

As for henchmen, I usually took Deekin but I also like Dorna, but had never taken Xanos (so I thought I might this time). I don't have to, though. It's been so long I've forgotten what all of them say now anyways, which is the main reason I take henchmen.

Put 12-14 in Charisma and maximize the Persuade skill. This is not possible with Arcane Archer or Sorcerer, unfortunately, as they are not class skills.

With the Rogue, you don't rely on buffs at all. Except if you buy/find scrolls/wands of Protection from Alignment. You have tons of skills that are always on.

The Bard has much limited skill points, half of the Rogue's actually. The Bard is an utility/support class. Buffing himself and others, and he relies on self-buffing very much.
More than the Cleric/Druid/Sorcerers. Because Clerics/Druids can rely on melee if their spells fail.
And the Sorcerer can summon all shorts of monsters or just blast anything into oblivion before they get close to him. Or you know, cast Time Stop.

The Rogue is both a huge damage dealer to those not immune to sneak attacks and has tons of skills you can maximize for lots of fun.
Hide, Move Silently, Persuade, Tumble, Disable Trap, Open Lock, Search, Use Magic Device, Lore, Appraise. That's with an Elf with 14 INT.
You only need 1 Shadowdancer level to make him awesome.

Also Elves are perfect for Rogues as they get Longbow and can search automatically, plus +2 Dex. That -2 Con is unimportant. It's just 1 HP/level less. You can fix it by taking Toughness or just being a little careful.
Plus +2 to saves versus mind-affecting spells.

For companions, I strongly suggest taking Dorna and tell her to only level as a Cleric. You do all the trap stuff. She has great HP and saves, can Turn Undead, heavy armor and shields to tank and she can buff you and heal you.
Plus her good saves are Fortitude and Will, you know the ones that you lack. Plus nice Dwarf bonuses. Perfect.

Don't bother with Xanos. He is a Half-Orc Barbarian with 13 STR (lol). And a Sorcerer. You don't want any spellcasting companion in NwN1, believe me. Their AI sucks immensely and they will get you killed. Even with Tony K's AI mod to improve it, it's too risky and random for me. I want complete control with my casters.

Don't take Deekin. He is a Bard/Rogue, I believe. Again, you do all the trap stuff. And his low hp and armor will get you both killed too many times to count.

For HotU. Take Linu, she is an elven Cleric and Daelan. Deekin improves as he gets Red Dragon Disciple but still, crappy armor and weapon proficiencies, I think.

Later, take Valen (he is romanceable) and Paladin Aribeth. Two uber-tanks that compliment your skills and protect you as you do the other stuff.
Nathyrra is a mess. Rogue/Wizard/Assassin. Redundant, hate NPC casters, Assassin is useless if you don't micromanage him.

I once saw an epic build that was simply a Rogue/SD/Fighter(?) halfling using Shortbows. And I have soloed HotU with a STR-based Katana-using Monk/Assassin. (Basically I recreated Tatsumaru from Tenchu 2 for pure fun, didn't care for optimization.)
So I know for a fact that just a Rogue is simply great.

Modifié par Luminus, 17 novembre 2012 - 12:18 .

[Sarielle]

AHMIGAD. Too many cool choices, LOL. What is the full starting stat breakdown for that rogue archer?

12-14 CHA
14 INT

I'm assuming 18 DEX but what about the rest?

I don't mind sticking with Dorna. I think I took Deekin my last playthrough and I always liked Dorna, so I wouldn't be against that at all. I always want to try Nathyrra but I agree ... she's so bad, lol.

[MagicalMaster]

I wouldn't recommend the rogue archer. It's practically useless against enemies immune to sneaks/criticals...which typically happen to be the toughest boss enemies. And even 5-10 damage reduction/resistance completely ruins it in those cases.

Basically, it lets you destroy stuff that is easy to beat anyway. So...yeah.

[Sarielle]

^ You don't think UMD is enough compensation for that? Genuine question, not rhetorical. I've never played a rogue at all so I admit I'm intrigued by it.

[MagicalMaster]

No, because at higher levels the wands and scrolls just don't have high enough saves or damage.

A melee rogue can get away with a bit more since melee weapons typically have more damage by default (especially with the +10 enhancement), archers don't get that. Which is a flaw in the standard game, but one you have to deal with.

[Shadooow]

Sarielle wrote...

Would this allow for good persuade?

The DCs in game are set so the average character which takes that skill cross class still had a chance to success. Therefore *maxing* these skills, especially when you are charisma based character that can cast Eagle's splendor on self is a bit needless. What MagicalMaster wrote is really good build of OC, the inclusion of the skill focuses is however definitely waste since you will max persuade/intimidate every second level so you will have already 100% chance for these conversation choices. Curse song and Lingering Song will be better choices instead or Dodge and Mobility which would allow to take one level of Shadow Dancer.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 novembre 2012 - 03:21 .

[Sarielle]

Hmm, OK. Welllll ... where would you recommend that Shadow Dancer level on the bard? And, what is the goal for getting that? HIPS I assume?

Modifié par Sarielle, 17 novembre 2012 - 04:07 .

[MagicalMaster]

HiPS would be the goal, yeah. If you take it below 20 you'll lose an AB point, though. Theoretically better to take it after, but then you have less time to use it. I'm not really sure if it's needed for your build.