66 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...

HiPS would be the goal, yeah. If you take it below 20 you'll lose an AB point, though. Theoretically better to take it after, but then you have less time to use it. I'm not really sure if it's needed for your build.

Indeed, if taken pre-epic there is 1BAB loss. But this isn't big deal really. 1AB point isn't problem, not in OC generally where creature's AC is very low and not at all with AA which has ton of bonus AB with bow. You get additional attacks one level later but thats not problem I think, you still get 4attacks per round.

It isn't maybe needed (but thinking this way, what is?) but there is absolutely no loss if you take SD at epic levels, so why not take it, HIPS might be usefull in tough battles.

Also, taking second shadowdancer level wouldn't be so pointless, uncanny dodge when character has high dexterity (not so important in OC, but again - what is?) and evasion which is certainly usefull, then the earlier the better.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 novembre 2012 - 09:55 .

[Luminus]

Hmm, I thought I would miss lots of posts, since I had to go to sleep.

Indeed, the pure rogue archer works less well but that's mainly because of the stupid bow enchantment restrictions. You cannot enchant bows as much as melee weapons in the games.
So it's the archer part that makes it less useful, not the rogue part.

If you go Bard/AA you rely on buffs. Many buffs, many of which are short in duration also. I had to recast my buffs all the time with extend spell on my pure Sorcerer on my first playthrough.
I can imagine the tediousness of recasting buffs all the time with a Bard. Also you will be resting even more often than my Sorc since he could destroy most stuff with Time Stops, Isaacs for offense and Premonition etc for defense.

The best compromise, would be Rogue/Bard or Wizard/AA. Alternating with Rogue now and then to keep the nice skills maxed. That way you combine my rogue suggestion and the AA suggestions.
If you get Bard levels, you get more skills and Bard Song, but the Wizard helps you not get a multiclass xp penalty with the Elf.

The Rogue/caster/AA doesn't rely on any buffs, unlike the Bard/AA. The build from Empyre in the first page is probably the best one, as you don't rely on Rogues or buffs and you remain effective, while doing great damage with Sneak Attack to those weak to it. And for anything else, there's Imbue Arrow, UMD and companions.

Though you don't need Spot as enemies never hide, I believe. And I would take a Shadowdancer level absolutely in case of emergency, as soon as possible. Spellcraft is decent as it gives you bonus to saves against spells, though not necessary.

Also with a Rogue/X/AA you don't rely on Rogue companions so you become even better protected by tanks. The ones I suggested in my post.

While the Bard/AA build is probably better with the tons of buffs, it's more tedious and difficult to play than the Rogue/x/AA build. But that's the case with all casters.

Modifié par Luminus, 17 novembre 2012 - 11:29 .

[MagicalMaster]

Luminus wrote...

If you go Bard/AA you rely on buffs. Many buffs, many of which are short in duration also. I had to recast my buffs all the time with extend spell on my pure Sorcerer on my first playthrough.

Posting more later, but...no.  You don't rely on many buffs.

You basically have Cat's Grace, Improved Invis...and that's about it.  Your main "buff" is Bard/Curse Song and you're not very reliant on that either except for tougher fights.  You're basically an archer with bard song and maybe a few other random buffs.

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Luminus wrote...

If you go Bard/AA you rely on buffs. Many buffs, many of which are short in duration also. I had to recast my buffs all the time with extend spell on my pure Sorcerer on my first playthrough.

Posting more later, but...no.  You don't rely on many buffs.

You basically have Cat's Grace, Improved Invis...and that's about it.  Your main "buff" is Bard/Curse Song and you're not very reliant on that either except for tougher fights.  You're basically an archer with bard song and maybe a few other random buffs.

MM is right. With Bard/AA you get exactly same power (excluding sneak attacks) and buffs are on top of that. Also most buffs are on long term. You basically cast mage armor, ghostly visage, cats grace and improved invisibility and then you only singing. Possibly you can cast haste, but at lower levels its really short and later in game you can get perma haste items.

Bard song is shorter but AA actually don't rely on that, still the minute is the duration of an average fight. And you can always take lingering song which isn't so bad investment in OC where you can acces lasting inspiration only near before the end of the game.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 novembre 2012 - 06:37 .

[Sarielle]

Neng the elf bard has been born. Unfortunately she's not as persuasive as she thought, because she ended up failing the "Shut up or die" roll on the crazy prophet there in Hilltop and uh...sort of killed him.

Whoops.

EDIT: And lest I come across as ungrateful, I'm having a blast guys. Thanks so much for all the help. It added a layer to the character's personaltiy for me, lol.

Modifié par Sarielle, 18 novembre 2012 - 12:41 .

[Luminus]

Sarielle wrote...

Neng the elf bard has been born. Unfortunately she's not as persuasive as she thought, because she ended up failing the "Shut up or die" roll on the crazy prophet there in Hilltop and uh...sort of killed him.

Whoops.

EDIT: And lest I come across as ungrateful, I'm having a blast guys. Thanks so much for all the help. It added a layer to the character's personaltiy for me, lol.

Well, since you started already, there's no point arguing about builds any further. That's the nature of this game and the various builds. Nothing is perfect. One build does one thing better than the other and something worse. Welcome to Neverwinter Nights.

Take Dorna and have her level in both Cleric and Rogue. At least you won't have to step on traps to "disarm" them.

For Persuade checks, just reload the game or pay them if the option is available.

You also take Deekin and have him level as Rogue only, up to you. See what fits.
For HotU, you could take Nathyrra and have her level only as Rogue. Better than Wizard or Assassin, at least.

You chose a tricky build but you learn by doing and learning new things. See it as a challenge and everything becomes fun. Glad we helped, one way or another.

Modifié par Luminus, 18 novembre 2012 - 07:00 .

[Sarielle]

I definitely don't mind further input, though. I replay these every year or so and I can always tuck builds back so I don't have to bother you guys next time I'm also not that far in at all, heh. So starting over isn't out of the question.

And I know I could have reloaded, but barring a wipe I prefer to keep trucking with whatever I do or don't get. Makes playthroughs more interesting. Found out that guy dying meant that I couldn't help the Red Wizard, for instance. Fun consequence.

I did try starting out as a rogue too, and felt more powerful. Obviously, no boss fights though. I considered bard/rogue but since I didn't know the stat breakdown/what to take at what level etc. so I just went with what was laid out already, lol.

[Luminus]

Haha, I see.

Well, Bard has buffs and spells, Rogue has skills, sneak attack and stealth. So it's up to you to chose your playstyle.
If you chose Bard, you take Rogue NPCs.
If you chose Rogue, you take tank companions.

With Bard you need to know when to cast the various spells and Bard/Curse Song.
With Rogue how to get into position to sneak attack and which enemies are sneak attackable.

Also, I think the Sneak Attack damage is very good to have in SoU.
Bards take a while to get their great spells, like all casters. Improved Invisibility doesn't come until 10th Bard level.
And I consider Hide in Plain Sight superior as it it's infinite and you always can use potions of invisibility. Though that 50% concealment is nice. But if you can hide instantly all the time, they cannot hit you anyway. Hit and hide tactics are awesome, like a sniper.

Don't forget that with UMD you can equip the tasty Monk items. Like Robes of the Dark Moon. Permahasted. That's +1 attack, +4 AC etc. Plus their boots.

And don't underestimate that 1 Wizard level if you go the Rogue/Wiz way. You get some very very nice spells if you take it at second level:
Mage Armor, True Strike, Protection from Alignment, Identify, Summon Creature I, Grease, Expenditious Retreat, Magic Weapon, Shield. Plus a familiar for another meatshield to protect you.

There are builds in the previous page that list both combinations. Bard/AA and Rogue/Wiz/(1 SD?)/AA.

I say test both builds in HotU since you start at 15 level. See which build suits you best.
Don't forget to get the second AA level asap. That 10d6 damage from Imbue Arrow is just great and softens bosses.

The choice is yours.

Modifié par Luminus, 18 novembre 2012 - 11:48 .

[Empyre65]

That imbue arrow was great against groups of shadovars.

[Sarielle]

Luminus wrote...

There are builds in the previous page that list both combinations. Bard/AA and Rogue/Wiz/(1 SD?)/AA.

Oh yes, I looked this one over but the CHA was low and persuade pretty low, too. I was just ultimately concerned that going pure rogue would leave me with unkillable bosses, and a rogue + arcane archer would leave me with crappy social skills.

So I went with this one, probably dropping a social skill for UMD.

Modifié par Sarielle, 18 novembre 2012 - 05:37 .

[Luminus]

Sarielle wrote...

Luminus wrote...

There are builds in the previous page that list both combinations. Bard/AA and Rogue/Wiz/(1 SD?)/AA.

Oh yes, I looked this one over but the CHA was low and persuade pretty low, too. I was just ultimately concerned that going pure rogue would leave me with unkillable bosses, and a rogue + arcane archer would leave me with crappy social skills.

So I went with this one, probably dropping a social skill for UMD.

Not really if you alternate between Arcane Archer and Rogue as Empyre's build shows. You can save all your skill points at level up, so when you get that Rogue level, you can put the skills in Persuade etc.
Both the Rogue and the Bard, have Persuade as class skills, so they can both max it. But the Rogue has more skill points that he can put somewhere else.

10 Charisma with 14 Charisma is exactly +2 point difference in conversation skills and UMD. Not that huge of a loss, as you can use Potions of Eagle's Splendor, or some persuade item. If there is any. I think it does.
You could just take those 4 points away from Strength so it will be 10 STR and 14 CHA. You only gain +2 damage from it and only if it's a Composite or Mighty Bow.

You don't really need more than one conversation skill, I think. Just raising Persuade is more than enough.
Dropping UMD might be unimportant or not. I would sacrifice some other skill.
You don't need Spot or Listen as no enemy hides ever. Though I might be mistaken. It's been a while.

By the way, if you think you have screwed something up with your build, don't be afraid. You can relevel from level 1.
Press ~ in game to bring up the console prompt on the top left. Then type DebugMode 1 to enable the cheats.
Then, type GiveXP -xxx. xxx is the amount of xp you have. Then DebugMode 0 to disable the command prompt.

For example, GiveXP -5000, (with a minus) removes 5000xp. That brings you to your desired level. Then type GiveXP 5000 to give that xp back and level up.

Yes, if you were not aware of this command, you can use it to gain max xp which I don't recommend because there would be no challenge at that and it would be pure cheating.
I only use it to fix details in my build as retraining rules exist in PnP. It's far better than to replay the entire game.

So if you want to experiment, give yourself 28-30 levels so that you can plan yourself how you will proceed and finish and then remove the extra xp. Or start a new game.

Modifié par Luminus, 18 novembre 2012 - 07:36 .

[Sarielle]

What is spellcraft doing for the Rogue/Arcane Archer build?

[kamal_]

Sarielle wrote...

What is spellcraft doing for the Rogue/Arcane Archer build?

The character gains a +1 bonus for every 5 ranks in this skill to all saving throws against spells.

[Sarielle]

Ah, I gotcha. Thank you.

Loved the Path of Evil campaign, by the way. Secretly, Lawful Affably Evil characters are always my favorites. :3

[Aelis Eine]

I always thought a Charismatic Archer would be some Divine Might archery build. If you're stopping at HotU I'd probably go with something like Human Bard/Fighter/Blackguard. Should be able to get Bard 16 for maxed song and level 6 spells, Fighter 6 for Epic Spec and Blackguard 4 for Divine Might and 1d6 Sneak Attack before the end. The 2 songs and War Cry will easily make up for the lack of AA AB. With Epic Spec, Divine Might and 1d6 Sneak Attack tacked on to Song and War Cry, you can easily get +23.5 bonus damage on top of your base bow and arrow damage. If you have a Mighty bow, you can stack double Bull's Strengths (Blackguard + Potion or Spell) for up to +10 strength to get even more damage.

Course, the trouble with a Divine Might archery build is the stat spread. You'll need 13+ Strength for the prereqs, 16 Cha to power Divine Might and get spells, 16+ Dex to hit stuff, decent Int for all the good skills Bards get and Con to not die.

My advice is 10 Con/10 Int, take Toughness as a level 1 feat, use your range and buffs to make yourself harder to kill, and be very judicious about the skills you take =p Perform should be maxed, Tumble should be maxed. There's a few good bows that are AA-only so you'll need UMD for those. Then there's Persuade which is kind of the reason you wanted a Cha build. That should leave room for 1 more skill, probably Concentration or Spellcraft.

Also, run through the OC Prelude to start at level 3. It's a little meta, but you kind of need Bard 2/Fighter 1 for Summon Creature I and Longbow Proficiency. A Dex-based Level 1 Bard is... unplayable in NWN =P

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 19 novembre 2012 - 12:51 .

[Luminus]

Aelis Eine wrote...

It works but it might be too hard to play in the beginning, too complex and requiring too many buffs for her.

The Divine Might build does more damage but loses lots of AB as you need to max Charisma for damage which is another limited buff.

Personally I think AA is more to the point as you don't need magic bows, you automatically increase their AB and damage permanently through it's class features plus you get Imbue Arrow for massive Area of Effect damage.

The Rogue/Wiz/AA is basically set and forget, no buffs, except for some through potions or the Wizard spells which are not necessary.
And you get Sneak Attack damage, enhancement damage from AA, Imbue Arrow, tons of skills, you don't need other Rogues NPCs and it's just easier to play.

But let the others and Sarielle say what they think too.

Modifié par Luminus, 19 novembre 2012 - 05:10 .

[Sarielle]

Soo...at some point during my early running around Hilltop I lost Dorna. She didn't die ... she's just nowhere to be found. She's not back at Drogan's and she's not anywhere else. Is this fixable? lol. I hadn't saved in a bit and I'm not redoing again.

EDIT: LOL never mind, found her in the tavern. Pete's sake Dorna, Neng likes a good drink as much as the next person but it's kinda not the time.

Modifié par Sarielle, 19 novembre 2012 - 05:59 .

[Luminus]

Sarielle wrote...

Soo...at some point during my early running around Hilltop I lost Dorna. She didn't die ... she's just nowhere to be found. She's not back at Drogan's and she's not anywhere else. Is this fixable? lol. I hadn't saved in a bit and I'm not redoing again.

EDIT: LOL never mind, found her in the tavern. Pete's sake Dorna, Neng likes a good drink as much as the next person but it's kinda not the time.

You should quicksave all the time. Before you talk to important people, before buying or selling anything and when you enter and about to exit new areas. It's free and it's instant.

I would make various hard saves after each act or before you exit the game for the day. I do it to make sure I don't screw up badly for some reason.
For example I number them.
Then when you finish the game, just delete them. They are not taking much hard drive space anyway.

By the way, what's the build you chose to go with?

Modifié par Luminus, 19 novembre 2012 - 07:21 .

[Sarielle]

I went with the rogue/AA build. I enjoy handling my own locks/traps for a change. Feels very powerful at low levels. Nice change of pace! lol.

And yeah, I do save fairly often but I hadn't been paying attention to when I last saw her, lol. Anyways, what's the shortcut for quicksave? I used to know it but not anymore, lol.

[Luminus]

Sarielle wrote...

I went with the rogue/AA build. I enjoy handling my own locks/traps for a change. Feels very powerful at low levels. Nice change of pace! lol.

And yeah, I do save fairly often but I hadn't been paying attention to when I last saw her, lol. Anyways, what's the shortcut for quicksave? I used to know it but not anymore, lol.

Awesome. It is. Melee types are powerful at lower levels, magic types at higher. ...Clerics at both. xD

Take that Wizard level at level 2 if you can or asap. Mage Armor stacks with normal armor, plus you can get a familiar (get the pseudodragon or something tough), Summon Monster 1, Protection from Alignment etc. They won't last long but helpful in tough fights.

[MagicalMaster]

Sarielle wrote...

I went with the rogue/AA build. I enjoy handling my own locks/traps for a change. Feels very powerful at low levels. Nice change of pace! lol.

The only difference in combat is sneak attack at that point (and Bard has Bard Song).  And while 2d6 sneak at level 3 might be nice, I'm just warning you that most tough enemies will be sneak and/or crit immune.  So unless you want lock/trap skills, you are much better off going with bard/AA.

The easy fights might be a harder (especially at the lowest levels), but the hardest fights will be much easier (especially at the higher levels).

[Aelis Eine]

Yea, Rogue/AA is like playing Rock, Paper, Scissors with only a scissors. You cut through paper with ease, then you hit a rock and have to slowly ****** away at it. Like with the hordes of skeletons with crit/sneak attack immunity and 50% piercing immunity that the OCs love to throw at you.

Of course, once you get SD it's almost impossible to actually lose unless you're fighting a dragon or some other True Seeing enemy. But you'll have to be prepared to take a very very long time to kill certain things.

Lock/Trap skills shouldn't be a biggie actually. If I remember right, a Bard taking 1 rank Open Lock and Disable Trap and buffing the rest with Song can open almost everything in the OCs because of Take 20.

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 19 novembre 2012 - 11:20 .

[Sarielle]

Ah well, we'll see how it goes. Not starting over yet again.

[Aelis Eine]

It can work, but you'll have to be a pack rat and hoard a lot of scrolls, potions and traps. Especially Claritys and Mind Blanks, Death Wards and Ice/Sonic traps. And know when to use them too. It's really tedious and I hated doing it when I played one, but if you do your skills right you should never hit a brick wall, just lots of very very steep brick slopes that will make you curse and swear at the broken archery system.

Modifié par Aelis Eine, 20 novembre 2012 - 02:55 .

[Sarielle]

At least I've got the packrat thing down, haha.