208 réponses à ce sujet

[Tempest_]

happy_daiz wrote...

Quote the Raven wrote...

I agree.

I loved the fact that you could Batman your way through Deus Ex, and anything which adds diversity to the experience in this way would be awesome.

Indeed. this is one of the coolest features of the game to me (along with the well-designed dialogue wheel).

But the boss fights were a facepalm if you were playing stealthy. I know personally, I wasn't equipped for that kind of brutality.

Haha, yeah.

I turned up to the first boss fight with a stun gun, painkillers and some beer.

[Naitaka]

One thing I'd like to add is that I'd like the non-violent solution to be something more than just a skill check. I was playing Divinity 2 Dragon Knight Saga awhile back and was impressed by how often obtaining information from random NPC or items lying around changes the outcome of seemingly unrelated side quests. Making investigating and exploration part of the solution is much more preferable to simply passing a persuasion check.

[Fast Jimmy]

Janan Pacha wrote...

When people bring up social solutions to problems I always think of the early portions of VtM: Bloodlines, prior to the sewers. That worked well, and in an enjoyable manner, until the sewers forced you to concentrate on combat abilities.

To be fair, this is why many games (such as FO:NV) allow you to have multiple companions depending on a skill or stat like Charisma. That way, if you are the "social skill" type, as you put it, you could recruit others who could do the heavy lifting in combat for you. And if you were a more combat-leaning character, you likely would have put less stats into Charisma and would be stronger,  but fewer in number. 

So encounter balancing was built right into the character sheet. 

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

I like having the option to talk, threaten, negotiate, bribe, or manipulate my way out of getting into a fight. I play BioWare RPGs to play a character, not just to kill things and press the Awesome Button.

[MassStorm]

Murder Knife disapproves of this thread.

[Fast Jimmy]

MassStorm wrote...

Murder Knife disapproves of this thread.

I support the murder knife, as it is death by dialogue choice. Not by combat. 

[happy_daiz]

Quote the Raven wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

Quote the Raven wrote...

I agree.

I loved the fact that you could Batman your way through Deus Ex, and anything which adds diversity to the experience in this way would be awesome.

Indeed. this is one of the coolest features of the game to me (along with the well-designed dialogue wheel).

But the boss fights were a facepalm if you were playing stealthy. I know personally, I wasn't equipped for that kind of brutality.

Haha, yeah.

I turned up to the first boss fight with a stun gun, painkillers and some beer.

Exactly. In that moment, I was so proud that I'd spent my level-up points on hacking, of all things. They came in real handy for that death tank, aka Barrett.  But dern it, if there had been a turret or robot around, it would have been mine.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 05 avril 2013 - 06:49 .

[Fast Jimmy]

That's what happens when you farm out your boss fights to another developer who doesn't really have any motivation to make the content they are creating to integrate with the rest of your game mechanics.

[grumpymooselion]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Janan Pacha wrote...

When people bring up social solutions to problems I always think of the early portions of VtM: Bloodlines, prior to the sewers. That worked well, and in an enjoyable manner, until the sewers forced you to concentrate on combat abilities.

To be fair, this is why many games (such as FO:NV) allow you to have multiple companions depending on a skill or stat like Charisma. That way, if you are the "social skill" type, as you put it, you could recruit others who could do the heavy lifting in combat for you. And if you were a more combat-leaning character, you likely would have put less stats into Charisma and would be stronger,  but fewer in number. 

So encounter balancing was built right into the character sheet. 

I think VtM: Bloodline's issue at the sewers and beyond was that those social options just weren't an option, you could craft an experience where they remained an option without the need for back up. Not that such an approach is an issue here, since we 'will' have party members in a DA game.

[sandalisthemaker]

The EXP from a fight might be too tempting to resist.
Perhaps if we gained some EXP from whatever non-violent options as an incentive...

[Plaintiff]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

The EXP from a fight might be too tempting to resist.
Perhaps if we gained some EXP from whatever non-violent options as an incentive...

I would think earning EXP for non-violent solutions would be a given.

Unless every single encounter can be solved in a non-violent fashion, we'll still need to be able to develop our character''s combat skills in order to progress.

[Sol Downer]

Noo...I need more...MORE!

[Wulfram]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That's what happens when you farm out your boss fights to another developer who doesn't really have any motivation to make the content they are creating to integrate with the rest of your game mechanics.

But it does reflect a fundamental problem if you

a)  Allow people to choose how much they invest in combat and non-combat stuff
and
  Include situations where combat is inevitable, and supposed to be challenging.

In that situation it's almost inevitable that you're going to have characters and players who are basically unprepared for the fights.  Which is why I favour "siloing" combat and non-combat stuff seperately and/or making the non-combat stuff dual use - if your stealty distraction stuff can be used to give a quick stun in combat then that'll help.

Also, it's probably a good idea if the player isn't going to be able to skip all combat, then make sure this is clear early on.  A mini-boss at the end of the first level of DE:HR would probably have helped convince players that they should probably keep carrying a real gun.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I don't disagree. And I look forward to future DE games, simply because they caught a lot flak from those boss fights and said it would be a huge lesson going forward, so more transparency into the non-combat solutions involved in a boss fight, as well as not requiring combat to the level it was (Barrett was the biggest WTF? I've seen in gaming in a long time) should be a good lesson learned.

[FenrirBlackDragon]

I think more non-violent solutions would be great, but something that isn't some special dialogue option. Maybe something where you knock people out like with the Thorian Gas in Mass Effect 1? (I still killed 1 person by accident T_T.) Someone mentioned stealth, which is good in theory but some of us really suck at stealth (it's the reason I'm still stuck near the beginning of the game in Fable 1.) So, if they do add some sort of stealth option, do make it the only option that doesn't involve gutting everyone.

Maybe having certain items in your inventory or knowing certain talents or spells might be interesting? i don't know.

[Twisted Path]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

The EXP from a fight might be too tempting to resist.
Perhaps if we gained some EXP from whatever non-violent options as an incentive...

Alpha Protocol did a lot of this. You'd get experiance for sneaking past enemies, and I think it was the same experiance you would have gotten for fighting them.

[Plaintiff]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

As long as non-violent gameplay still earns me exp.

I don't want my combat skills to be gimped when I actually NEED them.

This makes absolutely no sense and it's the main reason I love the Elder Scrolls system.

"Back off man, you don't know who you're dealing with, I've been excercising my mouth allllll day long. Watch your back."

"Making sense" is irrelevent. Unless every single encounter in the game, including major boss fights, has a non-violent resolution, players still need to be able to develop the combat skills of their non-violent characters.

Every playstyle in an RPG should be equally valid. I should be able to build my character any way I want, and still finish the game.

[Solmanian]

I'd actually like more violent solutions, not just "attack". Like when we meet that group of tevinter slavers and when they give you lip fenris puts his fist into the leader chest.

[Solmanian]

"Talking things out" is the easy way out and should net less XP or none at all.

[Solmanian]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I don't disagree. And I look forward to future DE games, simply because they caught a lot flak from those boss fights and said it would be a huge lesson going forward, so more transparency into the non-combat solutions involved in a boss fight, as well as not requiring combat to the level it was (Barrett was the biggest WTF? I've seen in gaming in a long time) should be a good lesson learned.

Well, they say they fixed it in the Wii U collector's addition. But that means you have to buy the Wii U and the collector edition, because they said they aren't going to patch those things in the old versions... That, for me, is one of the biggest examples of game developers giving their fans and customers the finger. "Oh, you want us to fix all the things that wrong with our game? NP, just buy the game again!".

[Plaintiff]

Solmanian wrote...

"Talking things out" is the easy way out and should net less XP or none at all.

In what sense is it the "easy" way? Because you say so?